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Old October 21, 2011, 12:24 PM   #26
Pezo
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By the way Nhmarine, that is why I did NOT shoot him. Did you read mypost? Now if he Had open the door to attack then it would be different. Right?
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Old October 21, 2011, 12:34 PM   #27
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One thing comes to mind, you could face prison for bringing a gun to an fistfight! Even if a fight would have escilated. The force he used wasn't equal to the force you were prepared to use. Alot of states would have hung you out to dry on that action. No matter how big he was. Carying a gun is only as good as the training of the person using it. Taking a ccw class only covers one part of personal defense. the first part is the person. When in a fight you still have to fight. One wrong pull of a gun and say by to your family for a long time! He had the best option, drive off!

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Old October 21, 2011, 12:37 PM   #28
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I don't know about Michigan. I do know there's been at least one case in Florida, a state where Castle Doctrine attaches to occupied vehicles, and where there is also a Stand Your Ground law, where a driver shot a road rager and was not charged.

Disparity of force, plus screamed racial slurs, as I recall. I don't recall anything about the dead road rager having been armed, just larger, younger, and aggressive.

So I'm not so sure some of the claims here about the inevitability of facing charges are on the mark.

That said, I agree with those who said that if the OP had time to prepare a weapon, he had time to drive off, and should have done so.
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Old October 21, 2011, 12:37 PM   #29
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Pezo, I get what you're saying. In general walking up to someone's car in an ATM line is hazardous to one's health.

Back when i was in high school, a buddy and I were going out for the evening, so I stopped by an ATM to get some cash for...fruit juice...Got $, drove away.

Realized a few minutes down the road that I had forgotten my ATM card in the machine, so I turn around, but get stuck at a traffic light and there is a line at the ATM now. So my buddy gets out and goes running over to check for it b4 the card "disappeared." The lady at the ATM was very very scared. And the large gentleman (rather chivalrous) in the pickup behind her in line exited his vehicle with a tire iron and a .44 mag.

He hit the deck, and I got there a few seconds later - we explained and all was well, but he came very close to biting it that night.

Good control, decent prep, poor observation though - people take their lines very seriously
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Old October 21, 2011, 12:54 PM   #30
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Pezo your right, sorry to insult you. I wasn't there to see what exactly happen. Thanks for sharing your story, makes everyone think what they would do in this situation and prepares them if this does happen to them.
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Old October 21, 2011, 01:11 PM   #31
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Sorry, but I'm not buying it. Now you enhance your story with "bloodshot eyes" and "fist closed" and "obvious fury" when previously he just looked angry. You couldn't possibly tell that his eyes were bloodshot by glancing in your rearview mirror. While he was standing there "staring you down", why weren't you busy moving your car? Could it be because you were holding a revolver in your right hand?

It still sounds like a case of reaching for your gun when there were a number of better options, like paying attention and not being "out of line" in the first place. Try not to panic when the little kids dressed like zombies show up at your door in about 10 days. They're not there to eat you.

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Old October 21, 2011, 01:24 PM   #32
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The crystal clear clarity of 20 / 20 hindsight

Just a general comment; Lighten up Francis!

So far I've seen the OP accused of everything from drastically over reacting to blatant racism.

None of us were there.

What are my take aways from the OP's post?
Lock my doors
Be respectfully apologetic
Be prepared should the incident escalate, despite my best efforts to diffuse it.

Two out of three ain't bad.

Thanks for sharing; nothing like an angry mob with tar torches, pitch forks and scythes to keep you on your toes.
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Old October 21, 2011, 01:43 PM   #33
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Archer9505,

You missed one... the most important one.... Leave before there IS a situation.

If you are aware of something that you believe is about to happen that is serious enough to warrant having a gun in your hand for ANY reason and you have a way out, the correct action is LEAVE.

I, for one, am part of no "angry mob" but I'm also not an "attaboy, way to go" back slapper either, when there were serious mistakes made.
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Old October 21, 2011, 01:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Thanks for sharing; nothing like an angry mob with tar torches, pitch forks and scythes to keep you on your toes.
Nothing quite like it to encourage future sharing either, ah well...
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Old October 21, 2011, 01:59 PM   #35
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Spacecoast, buddy READ my post. He was staring me down facing into the drivers window. I am sitting in driver seat. He marched up to my cargo van which does not allow use of the rear view. I saw him through my side view approaching. He made way to my drivers window. Why would he stop at the rear of my vehicle? As far as driving away? Its difficult sometimes admittely to type every detail in great perception. I had atm cars in front of me and a curb at the right. He was at the drivers window. So I would have had to steer towards and into his body to go that way. I could have backed up but would that not be potentially interpreted as trying to run him over. This man walked up to my window in a public place. I guess its my typing abilities or the "you woild have to have been there thing" because some of you just don't get it. Thank you to those who rea and tried to understand my story. God bless.
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Old October 21, 2011, 02:20 PM   #36
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Good Point

Quote:
If you are aware of something that you believe is about to happen that is serious enough to warrant having a gun in your hand for ANY reason and you have a way out, the correct action is LEAVE.
Agreed.
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Old October 21, 2011, 02:34 PM   #37
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oops made a mistake and got in a line oops sorry mr, I will move and go to the end of the line, thank you for helping me out.

That stops most folks right there. Hard to be upset with a guy knows he did wrong and wants to correct it right away. No gun needed. Glad you didnt shoot him, some guys just look mean as heck, but they are teddy bears when you get to know em.
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Old October 21, 2011, 02:38 PM   #38
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Pezo did not display his weapon; he defused the situation by apologizing and leaving; he admitted his error. For narrative purposes here, he made the politically incorrect mistake of identifying the other guy by race. I hope that he would not have fired if he had been pulled out of his vehicle because then he would be involved with the criminal justice system which would have left him ruined financially and emotionally even if he won. He probably would have lost his job and would have difficulty finding another. Why? Now his is controversial. So, when do you shoot is a difficult question, and the answer varies by situation.

If one reads government crime statistics, he sees that some ethnic groups make up a large per cent of the nation's prison population despite their having minority status. This sad fact glares when homicide statistics are examined. I have no doubt that discrimination by the majority over the last 130 years is the primary causitive factor. That said, the wise man will be observant yet practice restraint.
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Old October 21, 2011, 03:38 PM   #39
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That stops most folks right there. Hard to be upset with a guy knows he did wrong and wants to correct it right away. No gun needed. Glad you didnt shoot him, some guys just look mean as heck, but they are teddy bears when you get to know em.
Good god, people. Now this dude is a "teddy bear" in disguise as an angry monster who's jumped out of his car and is loudly and angrily confronting a poor,confused dork of some sort that just cut in an atm line? If it had been betty white, maybe the teddy bear would have been okay with her cutting in line? maybe a cute teenage girl?

The one fact that we know, at least as reported, is that this guy left his vehicle in a threatening manner, and reacted inappropriately in a situation that didn't justify it.

For some reason, it isn't setting well with you guys as a group that this fella in the van made a mistake, was confronted by a hostile person who did not make his intent clear, and he did the smart thing, by putting his hand on his weapon, in case the guy who may have just left cell block 9 was actually there to steal his money and van, and shoot him in the back of the head. It was an atm, near a bank, and even in broad daylight, there are robberies and murders at banks.

No, everything about this doesn't seem kosher to me, but NOBODY was shot at and the weapon was not displayed. No threats were made. a peaceable resolution was reached. Congrats to the op for not doing all the stupid things, such as pointing the gun in his face and going mel gibson on him.

It could have gone very differently. This guy might have spent his entire childhood being beaten up and thrown to the back of the lunch line, bulked himself up because he was sick of being picked on, and suddenly recognized a random person as the foot ball star that used to flush his head in the toilet.

Rage incidents happen quickly. They escalate, and take a long time to cool down. It is referred to as "explosiveness," because these people ignite, and they go off the scale in a matter of seconds. HE MAY HAVE BEEN FACING THIS.

If this dude had showed up at someone's front door screaming that your dog pooped in his yard, would you consider that grounds to start thinking about the shotgun in the closet? If he confronted the guy in front of him at starbucks for ordering 8 cups of coffee, would it be acceptable?

Stop ignoring the very real fact that there was a perceived threat, and every one here, I believe without exception, would have perceived being confronted in that manner as a threat. A police officer after the donut shop shooting in seattle saw a large guy walking up behind his car, got out and drew his gun, and shot a guy who had killed a bunch of cops.

Jeeze louise. This guy is probably going to die next week, because he was taken to task for what may or may not have been an overreaction, and will stop carrying his gun with him just as the newest serial killer strikes in his hometown. A guy who drives from one atm to another cutting throats when people **** him off.

As a person, I'm kind of ashamed that I'm having to defend this guy for exercising his legal right to carry, and using good judgment in first, concealing his weapon, second, making sure it is accessible, and third, de-escalating the situation to the best that he could. He didn't do anything to provoke this situation. Another member of society who appointed himself the atm traffic guard brought it about.

BTW, in case anybody was wondering, if I had seen this situation develop, MY pistol would have been in my hand the second driver 2 left his vehicle. When I heard the shouting, I probably would have opened my door left my seat, staying behind my door. If driver #2 had then exposed a weapon, you know what? All bets are off. I very possibly would have dropped him if he pointed it into the van. It could have been a gang hit on a narco cop. The situation as I would read it from farther back in line would be that there was no excuse for driver #2 to do what he did, and that driver #1 was in probable danger. A displayed weapon would have brought that thing into the area that I, and probably LE personnel would think deserved intervention.
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Old October 21, 2011, 04:00 PM   #40
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briandg, I agree with a lot of what you said until the last paragraph. The OP made an understandable error, and the other guy over-reacted to create what the OP perceived as a very real threat. In these days of carjackings and Castle Laws, the aggressor opening the car door could very easily be construed as an attack, and the disparity of force between a muscular 300-pounder and a skinny 160-pounder is very real. The problem is that it will cost you the price of a lawyer to do the construing, but broke is better than dead for most people. Preparing for defense while you take steps to de-escalate the situation is a reasonable course.

In the last paragraph, though, you say that you would have intervened in certain circumstances.

Quote:
It could have been a gang hit on a narco cop.
The problem is that it could also have been a cop making a narcotics bust. It is close to impossible to know what is going on between two strangers. As much as you might hate to do so, it probably is wise to stay out of other people's fights.
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Old October 21, 2011, 04:08 PM   #41
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Thanks briandg, I like the post except where you call me a dork. But that's ok no hostilities here. And No sir I will never stop carrying a handy gun for defense. Ever. Ty
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Old October 21, 2011, 04:25 PM   #42
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According to my training, my CCW is for personal protection. I am not a civilian guard dog, I am not to act like a law enforcement officer in any manner.

The OP didn't shoot anyone. That is good. Heck, that is great.

Some people want to deny that people can be and are at times afraid.

The man that approached the car was being foolish. It is possible that since he is a large man that he considers himself to be well protected. Who knows, maybe he had a gun on him too.

What I read out of this is a lot of tension, frustration, aggravation, and further more, the lack of trust of our fellow man, and fear that what you see in the news may happen to you. It is hard times we live in, people are on edge for good reason.

I think that this story should have never been shared. Never mentioned because it doesn't need to be mentioned. Why? Because there will be some that say you did right, some that say you did wrong. Pat yourself on the back, learn from the situation, and keep it to yourself is my advice.

And if the guy that walked up to the car happened to be here and reading this, next time, smile and say from a distance, "Excuse me sir, the line starts back over there" and don't get too close to the car, stay visible with hands open and not clinched, and understand that even if he was cutting line being polite is the only correct action and if the guy insists to cut line then let it go. Beats getting shot.

Just my thoughts, I am not sure what prompted me to chime in, but I have.

Please be a little nicer, a little more forgiving, and a little slower to anger. Be vigilant and willing to back down if you can, but if you can't then defend you and yours at all costs.
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Old October 21, 2011, 05:03 PM   #43
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Quote:
"He opened my door" is not justification for shooting someone. Even "He was really angry when he opened my door" is a far cry from justification for lethal force.
If that man had opened your door and you had shot him, you would be in for massive legal troubles.
Sorry Peetzakilla, you are very wrong on this one. A person unlawfully entering your dwelling (which includes your car) and is seeming to cause imminent harm or death, you can legally shoot them.

Taken fom the Missouri Castle Law doctrine:

"2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or herself or another against death, serious physical injury,[ rape, sodomy or kidnapping or serious physical injury through robbery, burglary or arson] or any forcible felony; or

(2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person.

3. A person does not have a duty to retreat from a dwelling, residence, or vehicle where the person is not unlawfully entering or unlawfully remaining."
]

In any case, good job OP for keeping your cool and not escalating the situation. Next time you will know that people in the atm form stupid lines, they do it at my bank also.
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Old October 21, 2011, 05:25 PM   #44
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I agree to the last post
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:05 PM   #45
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Quote:
Disparity of force and "he opened my door" are two different things.

Can you imagine sitting in a court room and trying to explain that you shot a man for opening your car door and that you believe that a reasonable person would have believed that they were in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm because someone opened a car door? That's the legal standard, reasonable person.

Now, he grabbed my shirt and tried to pull me out, he punched my window out and reached in, those things, maybe, but "he opened my door"?
This got me thinking about numerous posts where the poster comments that he answers the door with their pistol, or revolver. I've read where a stranger opens the house front, or back door. Generally the discussion goes along the line of suggestions of pistols, shotguns, or carbines to have at the ready, and the best ways to shoot the BG and plead self defense.

Why is the stranger opening the car door different from the stranger opening the front door of your house ?
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:18 PM   #46
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It's the same here.
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Old October 21, 2011, 09:40 PM   #47
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Tail gator:

Being the third party in that situation, yes, of course, it could be a bad guy in the car, it could be a bad guy outside, they could both be libyan nuclear materials smugglers.

Being the third party puts an armed citizen in a bind. In that situation I could have just covered my own keister and let the chips fall. That's not what I do, though.

When something like this happens, as has happened a couple times, as soon as I hear raised voices, I go on alert, and try to read the situation.

In this situation, visual and language cues probably would have ruled out a narcotics bust on the guy in the van. When a weapon was pulled out without a badge, or shouted warnings, it would be a pretty strong clue that the guy outside the van wasn't a cop.

Lacking any evidence that the guy outside the van had a legitimate reason to drag out and beat the van driver, or god forbid, shoot him in the head, I'd be stuck in the situation of making a shoot/don't shoot decision based only on a few seconds of eyewitness input. I'm also in the equally bad situation of deciding whether or not I should even intervene, and then, stuck with the question of how to do it safely if I do.

The situation for an armed third party would be horrible, and no matter what, that third party will be hung out to dry for intervening and maybe killing or injuring one either D1 or D2. Vigilantes get no respect, and that is what I would be viewed as.

Being 3 cars behind an enclosed van, I don't know how many people are in there, it may even be a van full of nuns transporting mentally disabled orphans to the petting zoo, and D2 was a homicidally angry victim of abuse by nuns.

I'm not someone who can automatically lay down a blanket statement that "it's not my problem. Let them all die, I have a wife/family/self to take care of."

I'm going to see both of those people, D1 and D2 as possibly being the best friends I ever had in grade school, the doctor who saved my neighbor, or so forth. heck, D2 might even simply be a mentally retarded adult that escaped his handlers and is playing "die hard" in the parking lot. I'm going to weigh every bit of information, and be the "professional witness" that an armed person must be.

Am I going to jump out and shoot? heck no. I've been in this situation before, and will again, and will not even expose my weapon until I am absolutely certain that a victim is about to have his life ended or irreversibly altered.

The one thing I can say with certainty, is that if I had witnessed that situation, I'd have had 911 speed dialed before D2 got abreast of the window. It would be very apparent that there was at least a probable assault and battery in progress, and being only 6 feet 190 pounds, I'm not going to try breaking it up myself.

That is one of the reasons that I have carried pepper spray quite often myself. macing some fool is a lot smarter than shooting him, if there is any doubt of the intentions.

If D2 had confronted me in that manner and I saw no weapon, I'd have left my gun still stashed and my pepper spray ready instead.

I can always shoot him in the head while he rolls on the ground gouging at his eyes if I change my mind, right?
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Old October 21, 2011, 09:46 PM   #48
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The thing is we need to take a global, 360 degree view of these situations, and never, ever, make hasty decisions at any point.

A lot of statements were made here that didn't look at this event from other perspectives.

The guy found himself in a perceived threat of injury. I would have done almost the same thing if someone approached my vehicle at an atm. I probably wouldn't want him to have handled it any differently. As far as he knew, he was about to be dragged from his car, robbed and killed, and his car stolen.
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Old October 21, 2011, 10:15 PM   #49
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Theres way too many what if's here. But under the Op's info at the atm, I prob would have acted the very same also. Like we all are saying, you might have done this the other person might have done that and I prob would have done what the Op done. All in all it sounded like it all went well in the end.
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Old October 21, 2011, 10:16 PM   #50
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Pezo, fortunately the mad dude at the ATM didn't beat you up or cause you to respond with deadly force. Unfortunately, some of you fellow TFL members are whipping up on you pretty good.

They, of course, would have handled the situation perfectly with no cause for criticism or question of their motives or actions.

Glad it ended like it did and everyone went home in one piece...
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