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Old October 16, 2011, 08:13 PM   #1
chris in va
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Training for C&L carry?

I recently bought a 97b. This is my first handgun with a safety, everything else has been a decocker version (75BD, Sig 220 etc).

How do you guys train to swipe off the safety before drawing, especially under stress such as competition and defense?
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Old October 16, 2011, 08:25 PM   #2
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The trick is not to disable the safety BEFORE drawing. I've seen many injuries from this, there's even a video of a guy doing it to himself on youtube, with a 1911.

I've always heard to draw, safety off as you are presenting the muzzle forward, then finger on the trigger. Though, I don't practice often anymore, no gun to do so... Regardless, operating the safety with your finger on the trigger, or the gun still in it's holster, just seems like a bad idea.
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Old October 16, 2011, 08:43 PM   #3
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Train is the key word. I disagree about not taking the safety off when you present. If you're in a situation where you need to draw your gun, then it means you're ready to fire. When I practice, taking the safety off is part of the draw routine.
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Old October 16, 2011, 08:43 PM   #4
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Search YouTube with "Tex Grebner" for tips on how not to train.

For one thing, I wouldn't rotate among guns with different MOA or train with different holster setups.
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Old October 16, 2011, 09:58 PM   #5
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Train.

"How do you guys train to swipe off the safety before drawing, especially under stress such as competition and defense?"

By the numbers: break the task at hand (drawing a gun with a safety) down to it's simplest steps and number them..... crawl through them.... then walk .... then run. A couple thousand repetitions will ingrain it in you: "Muscle Memory" ..... so you can do it without thinking.....

....and +1 to the idea of not switching between different systems. Relying on "muscle memory" and requiring your brain to get involved -"which gun do I have today?"- is a recipe for disaster. Ask Tex Grebner.......
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Old October 16, 2011, 10:26 PM   #6
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The following quote is how thousands of students have been taught at Gunsite to use the Weaver Stance.

The Presentation:
Quote:
Single-Action Self-Loading Pistols
1. "GRIP" - The firing hand grips the weapon, and the support hand moves to a catching position which will eventually lead to the two-handed grip.
2. "CLEAR" - The firing arm lifts the pistol straight up until the muzzle clears the top edge of the holster. Do not exagerate this movement. The trigger finger remains straight and the safety remains on. The support-hand maintains its position at the "grip".
3. "CLICK" - Maintaining the approximate angle at "clear", rotate the arm forward at the shoulder. Advance the pistol towards the target until the forearm is slightly below horizontal, about halfway between the holster and the prepositioned support-hand. Disengage the safety - hence the "click" - but keep the trigger finger straight.
4. "SMACK" - The support-hand meets the firing-hand and the push-pull pressure begins. The trigger finger makes contact with the trigger, but does not apply pressure - it only touches it. The support side elbow still rests against the rib cage. To the casual observer, "smack" appears much like the Guard Position, but note two significant differences. At the "smack" of the presentation stroke, the safety is off and the trigger-finger touches the trigger. This is warranted since the weapon will be on target in a fraction of a second.
5. "LOOK" - This is the final step - the top - of the presentation stroke. The arms and hands deliver the pistol's sights to the line of sight between the master eye and intended point of impact on the target. The lightly sprung slack on the trigger is compressed on the way up (it is not part of the sear/hammer disengagement action). Visual focus shifts from the target to the front sight. The controlled application of pressure on the trigger provides a well-placed hit. (The combination of a swift, sure presentation and the use of the compressed surprise-break routinely provided our students two center on a dinner plate at seven yards, from the holster, in less than two seconds.)
From "The Modern Pistol Technique" by Gregory Morrison, Gunsite Press 1991; pages 78- 80. Jeff Cooper, Editorial Adviser and Foreward.
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Old October 16, 2011, 10:30 PM   #7
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i wouldnt buy a pistol with a safety. But if I acquired one I wouldnt ever put it on safety.
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Old October 16, 2011, 10:31 PM   #8
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Dry firing, lots of dry firing. Draw, line up the sights as you disconnect the safety. Do this for hours a week until its second nature. Make it part of the draw and sight alingement.

It dosen't cost anything to practice, dry firing works. You shouldn't even think about it under stress, turn it into musle memory, you'll never know you're doing it.
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Old October 16, 2011, 10:32 PM   #9
chris in va
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I've consolidated my handguns down to a CZ 75BD, Kahr K9 and now my 97B, which I plan to carry in the cooler months. If I can gain muscle memory for the 97's safety, all I will be doing with the other two is swiping a phantom lever, instead of the other way around.
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Old October 16, 2011, 10:39 PM   #10
BlackFeather
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Sorry, my terms were wrong. By "presenting" I meant aiming the muzzle in the direction of the target. But what Mello2o posted is what I meant, drawing, clearing everything, then safety off with your finger off the trigger.
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Old October 17, 2011, 12:55 AM   #11
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When you carry it, just leave the safety off. If you ever need to draw it, you don't want to be fumbling with the safety. You should just be able to draw, point and shoot.
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Old October 17, 2011, 02:04 AM   #12
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All my personal weapons have a 1911 type safety and i always disengage it as its coming out of the holster and my finger is never on the trigger untill my muzzle is pointed at the threat. That said my duty weapon is a glock22 and i sometimes find myself thumbing off the safety when i practice with it. LOL like mentioned before its muscle memory so just always practice taking off the safety even on the ones that dont have em.
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Old October 17, 2011, 05:09 AM   #13
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Chris, 10/17/11

As most others have said you need a common manual of arms for your carry pistols. Your Kahr has a long DA pull with every shot, the CZ-75BD has a DA first shot and SA shots thereafter. Your CZ-97B can either be carried Cocked and Locked (SA for every shot) or you can lower the hammer and carry it the same way as your CZ-75BD. Remember you need muscle memory not just for that first shot but for all the subsequent shots and you have three different setups with your pistols making it all but impossible to remember which manual of arms to use for that particular pistol under stress. I don't see an easy answer unless you carry only the CZ's with a DA first pull and SA pull thereafter and disregard the Kahr (which is probably easier to carry than the other two). Good luck with your choices.

best wishes- oldandslow
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Old October 17, 2011, 05:24 AM   #14
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Common Manual of Arms...

... is not a bad idea, but it's hardly a requirement.

Just look at all the 1911 guys who also own revolvers.

However, you should train with whatever you intend to carry, as often as practical.

This includes not only time at the range, IMO, but also, when you carry a different pistol than you have carried lately, you should do some dry-fire, draw, and presentation training (with an unloaded gun, of course) prior to loading the weapon and leaving home.

I used to subscribe to the Common Manual of Arms idea, until I realized that from one job to the next, where weapons were involved, I'd been handed three different handguns, with three completely different operating systems (M11, M9, S&W M&P).

It's good to know how to use all of them.
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Old October 18, 2011, 10:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Just look at all the 1911 guys who also own revolvers.
Oh, I own a couple of wheel guns ...... I just don't carry them. Or train on quickly drawing them....... "If something can go wrong, it will." I'll not tempt Murphy.
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Old October 18, 2011, 01:45 PM   #16
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Murphy says, when things go wrong, you won't be packing and a buddy will hand you an unfamiliar weapon.
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Old October 18, 2011, 01:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Murphy says, when things go wrong, you won't be packing
Unpossible, as I am either packing or nobody is packing (schools)...... and if my buddy hands me a gun, then I ain't worried about drawing it, am I? Or is he handing me a belt and holster, too?
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Old October 18, 2011, 02:00 PM   #18
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You don't have LEO buddies? Odd... I do...
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Old October 18, 2011, 02:43 PM   #19
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Quote:
You don't have LEO buddies? Odd... I do...
None that are goin' to hand me their duty gun and a holster in a school.
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Old October 18, 2011, 04:11 PM   #20
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Another voice for training... Here is how I did it:

I practiced and practiced. When I wasn't practicing I was envisioning myself practicing.

Now when I draw I do not know when I take the safety off, or rather, I'm not aware that I am taking it off. When I shoot IDPA, right before the buzzer I think to myself "try to remember when you take the safety off". After the run I still won't remember. I have to ask friends if they can see or hear me take it off. That's just how ingrained it is in my muscle memory.

You just keep practicing...
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Old October 18, 2011, 04:45 PM   #21
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I have only carried one handgun with a safty engaged. It was a 1911 that I carried for 5 years daily cocked and locked. I trained a lot at draw, and fire drills. I still every now and again to keep the edge take it to the range to stay familiar with it.

My draw stroke is a bit different than most. I do not lift to draw. It is more of a shove back with my elbow, as my wrist pops up, the pop up motion with my thumb on the safty disengages the safty as the gun is leveled at belly level. Non dominat hand meets dominat hand in the middle if that chance happens. I do a lot of training just one handed from the ready position for the preperation that somehow someone got that close, and I have to shoot to get them off of me.
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Old October 23, 2011, 12:06 AM   #22
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and...thats why I carry a double action only. Pistol or revolver.
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Old October 24, 2011, 11:57 AM   #23
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"Booger hook off the bang switch" and whatnot

Just recently started carrying a C&L capable auto, previous carry was da/sa.

Holster is new, and so is quite snug - making for a bit of a tough draw (you really gotta yank). For practice, I make the conscious effort to keep my index finger right along the frame above the trigger guard and apply the necessary force to the grip with my other 3 fingers to draw. Then aim/point and disengage safety with thumb and, lastly, move my fingertip into the trigger.

Not to hijack, but if anyone has any idea how to (inexpensively) loosen up a leather Don Hume owb holster, please let me know
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Old October 24, 2011, 01:28 PM   #24
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Stressfire, put a sheet of wax paper around your pistol, then put it into the holster and leave it overnight.
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Old October 24, 2011, 01:41 PM   #25
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Quote:
Stressfire, put a sheet of wax paper around your pistol, then put it into the holster and leave it overnight.
That and wear it in, by drilling (practicing repetetively) ...... which you should be doing anyhow.
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