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Old October 20, 2011, 06:52 PM   #1
Pezo
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Had a near incident today

First let me say that since I have acquired my conceal carry license here in michigan 7 years ago I have had 2 sitiuations in which I felt I were near or at risk if you will of having to use my weapon in defense. I am a peaceful christian man who generaly leads a secure uneventful life even though I am near but not generally in detroit. The first situation I had posted once before posted about previously.

This second situation just happened today happened in a generally peace ful sub north of detroit. I carry a gun, generally some sort of revolver with me daily and every where it is legal to do so. This is mostly because I love guns ever since I was young. I love shooting various small arms and have been doing so since I was a child. It is only natural to me to carry a gun for self defense and I am comfortable doing that.

Now, today I was done with work and was driving my "cargo" van towards home this afternoon. I realized that I needed to stop at the bank atm to get some spending money out. I was not in my home area but came up to a branch of my bank in this area.

When I pulled towards the drive thru bankink/atm area I noticed a line of cars however they were kind of off to the side. There were 2 atm machines and they were occupied. Now at my old bank cars would pull off to the side to do banking sometimes before entering the lanes. The first vehicle was a gold mini van and it was quite a distance from any of the open lanes and the atms. I made the decision but I realize now in error to pass by this line of cars and get behind 2 vehicles, one at the atm and one behind waiting.

Still not sure and I was a bit confuse I happened to look out my side view mirror and saw the occupant of the "gold mini van" exit out. Holy , this guy was a muscular 350 poundish looking african american man who could easily pass for a lions quater back! He passed the first atm then towards my van. I knew what he was going to say but not ow he would say it.

My revolver was in its holster and clipped to the open counsel near me. As he was walking or more like marching angrily towards me I grabbed my revolver in my right had and dropped the holster to the floor of my van. I dropped the holster because I did NOT want him to know I had a gun. I kept the revolver in my right hand and my hand down side of my seat by the seat belt lacth device out of view.

This large and intimidating man came up to my window and he looked mad like he was already having a very bad day. He said very angrily " DON'T YOU KNOW THIS IS THE ATM LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I had the window up but forgot to lock the door! I replied back thru closed window and with hidden revolver in right hand. NO, but thank you, ill go around.

After I said that he proceeded to stare me down with firey look in his eyes for like 30 seconds, probably waiting for an excuse to pull my door open and snap me like a twig.I am male 165 pounds soak and wet slender.at that moment he stared at me I though t he may actually pull open the door.

My one and only biggest fear in this momentwas not an inevitable and severe beating but rather the fact I may have to shoot this moron for real! He was tall and had a large head so he would have, had he pullede the door opemean down allowing me clear shots rigth into his head!

After he stared me down in anger he walked back to his van and was even stopped by the guy in the other atm wglho was smirking probably something like" you freaked that guy out" but little do they know.

Do to my calm non confrontational attitude I believe I prevented a possible incident. I have learened a lot today. No room for attitudes or pride when packing but be ready to act if required.

Ty

Last edited by pax; October 20, 2011 at 07:20 PM. Reason: fixed formatting
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Old October 20, 2011, 07:16 PM   #2
Crazy88Fingers
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Just another case of a lost temper. Good job not making a bad situation worse. And as I've written on this forum at least a few times before... ALWAYS LOCK YOUR DOORS! You lock them when you leave your car to protect your stereo. Lock them when you're inside to protect yourself.

Oh, and don't cut in line next time.
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Old October 20, 2011, 07:23 PM   #3
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Interesting story. Good for you for staying calm and defusing the situation by being polite and nonconfrontational. That isn't always easy to do when your heart is pounding and you know it was just an innocent mistake.

As you pointed out, it would have been better if you'd locked your door beforehand. Stuff happens, but that could have been a bad mistake.

You made absolutely the right decision by not opening the door yourself or getting out to talk to him. That could have been read as increasing the conflict.

I fixed the paragraph issue above. No worries.

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Old October 20, 2011, 08:30 PM   #4
shootniron
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Good job.

The one thing that I would have done differently after it getting to this point, I would have locked the door while he was standing there glaring at me...better safe than sorry.
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Old October 20, 2011, 09:06 PM   #5
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One of the most argumentative and obnoxious clowns I have ever met had a cwp, and he was an aggressive, nasty, confrontational a-hole.

One day, he let slip in conversation that he is "a lot less mouthy and obnoxious when I'm packing."

I congratulated him on finally admitting that he is an obnoxious loud mouthed jerk, and suggested that maybe he should go packing every day and make the world a quieter, more peaceful place.

I don't think that people like him should be hauling around firearms, being a confrontational and aggressive type. There is nothing in this world that requires more self control than having a lethal weapon in your hands when a bad situation is escalating. Drawing that weapon should be the very last step, and in plenty of situations, there are many opportunities to de-escalate before that point is reached.

I really hope that most of the CCW holders are aware of this, and that they believe in holding deadly force in reserve until you almost have no choice but pull the trigger.

You did the right thing by not showing your weapon in the face of simple physical intimidation.
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Old October 21, 2011, 05:57 AM   #6
spacecoast
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Since it was you in the wrong line, cutting off several cars ahead of you, albeit unintentionally, what right did you have to assume that the guy was acting with bad intent?

It was you who judged him solely on his appearance, grabbed your gun, envisioned what it would be like to shoot him, and above all thought of him as a moron! I see a moron in the picture, but it wasn't him.
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:18 AM   #7
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I agree...first, you thoughtlessly cut in line. Then, you get scared getting called on it by a "large african american"....who you are prepared to shoot.
Troubling all around.
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:32 AM   #8
MLeake
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I won't make any moral judgements on this one; I think the OP realizes he erred.

However, I will say that in many cases like this, the best defense is a quick "Mea Culpa" and apology - especially when one actually is in the wrong.
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:36 AM   #9
skoro
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Had a near incident today

Anytime you're involved in an incident and you didn't need to draw your weapon, it's a "win", in my book.
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:50 AM   #10
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I've seen some physical confrontations for "line jumping" at the grain elevator but those involved guys who knew what they were doing and did it anyway.
At the very least you get credit for being aware that an individual was approaching in a belligerent manner and realizing your error. Regadless of the appearance of the other guy, his aggressive approach and demeanor put him in the crosshairs so to speak. He knew his size and appearance would intimidate and his manner of dealing with your error would indicate he had used this ploy previously.
If he had opened the door, my first thought would be to produce the weapon and say"Sorry I made a mistake but you just made a bigger one. Now get out of my face so I can move out of the way". That is NOT the way to handle this type of situation. I'm 60ish and medium build so a physical assault by this individual would very possibly be fatal but I wouldn't want to have to justify brandishing my pistol until he actually made contact.
My son repeats the line" don't mess with an old guy, he won't fight he'll just kill you".
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:52 AM   #11
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Every single time someone posts an incident and gives a decent description of the other individual, and the description includes words other then 'white' the op gets jumped on for doing so. When the other person in the story is described as a big, small or whatever white guy no one says a peep. I would ask why we, or some anyway, feel the need to toss down the race card, with the pretty thinly veiled assumption that the description includes black, asian or whatever due to something other than a simple accurate description. Pretty telling in and of itself in my opinion.
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Old October 21, 2011, 07:15 AM   #12
Pezo
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thank you pax for the clean up. After the altercation (I am on a desktop now). I went around the building and to the back of the line. After this man did his banking now in front of me, The line of cars proceded closer to the atm in a more logical and less confusing fashion. This "man" had positioned his vehicle and thus the cars behind it in a confusing fashion originally thus causing my error. If it were an 80 year old woman who approached me screaming "hey a-hole" I still would have went to the back of the line. Had this man just approached like a human being and said in less threating demeaner, I still would have went to back of line no cause for alarm. It was his approach and demeaner that caused alarm. Should someone get beat to a pulp for a mistake? when some one is in error and you wish to approach them in a civil manner, fine but with today's popularity of civillian clp licenses, believing it is a good idea to approach a stranger in anger and threatening demeanor, well that day is just over. Back to the topic, when the man was staring me down and even approaching I was not thinking who was right or wrong in regards to an argument over the line jump. I was going to go back to line any how. What I did was get myself into a good defensive position and I drew a line in my head of when I would be justified in using my weapon. That line was if he would have opened the door. Then that would be clearly an aggressive action and would be justified. He walked away at the end instead. which I thank god for.

Last edited by Pezo; October 21, 2011 at 07:26 AM.
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Old October 21, 2011, 07:26 AM   #13
Brian Pfleuger
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Pezo,

"He opened my door" is not justification for shooting someone. Even "He was really angry when he opened my door" is a far cry from justification for lethal force.
If that man had opened your door and you had shot him, you would be in for massive legal troubles.

Frankly, I'm not sure why I would sit in my car and watch a large, obviously angry man approach. Drive away. There are other ATMs. I don't care what he wants or why. I'm not preparing for use of force when I have the option to leave.
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Old October 21, 2011, 07:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
This "man" had positioned his vehicle and thus the cars behind it in a confusing fashion originally thus causing my error.
Sounds like you still hold him responsible for your error. And why is he referred to as a "man"? Was he a woman disguised as a man, or do you still think of him as less than a man? For all you know, he could have had a wife and five kids in his mini-van, and you were one harsh word away from ending his life and adversely affecting all of their lives.

From your story, he had no weapon, and I didn't read one thing that indicated that he did anything threatening other than looking displeased (for which you can hardly blame him). With no other way to let you know, he exited his car to tell you that you cut the line in front of him and a bunch of others who were waiting. As a result, you end up congratulating yourself for not shooting him. There's something wrong with this picture...
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Old October 21, 2011, 07:33 AM   #15
Pezo
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I did not drive away because the man could have been cool. I would have apolozied and move to the back of the line. I did this in hindsight any ways as far as he new. In the end no harm no foul. If he opened the door I'm confident it would have followed with some sort of action, why else would you pull the door open? And if that happened I would have mere seconds to react. In michigan we have a right to use lethal force even if the attacker may not have an actual weapon but has the size and strength advantage to reasonablly cause death or great bodily harm. This would have been the case IF this individual would have became violent. He ultimately did not become violent and was never in aware of any cards I had in my deck in case he did. All is well. and nothing wrong with being pre pared. It is your life.
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Old October 21, 2011, 07:45 AM   #16
Brian Pfleuger
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Disparity of force and "he opened my door" are two different things.

Can you imagine sitting in a court room and trying to explain that you shot a man for opening your car door and that you believe that a reasonable person would have believed that they were in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm because someone opened a car door? That's the legal standard, reasonable person.

Now, he grabbed my shirt and tried to pull me out, he punched my window out and reached in, those things, maybe, but "he opened my door"?

Besides, this approaching man looked menacing enough to cause you to draw your firearm. What does "he might have been cool" have to do with anything? If I think I might need my gun and I have the option to leave, why would I not leave?
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Old October 21, 2011, 07:57 AM   #17
secret_agent_man
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Couple of things here. One, you could get killed confronting a line cutter, no matter how big you are and how small he is.

Two, what is the best handgun caliber for taking down hulking guys like the OP encountered?
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Old October 21, 2011, 08:17 AM   #18
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Wrong place, wrong time and you overreacted, almost too much.
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Old October 21, 2011, 08:28 AM   #19
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No room for attitudes or pride when packing but be ready to act if required.
Nope, none at all. As I have been learning since I started carrying, it is a perpetual exercise in patience & pride swallowing. With the possession of a deadly weapon, even a verbal altercation can quickly escalate out of control.

Not sure about the laws in your state, but it is pretty much standard that you cannot claim self defense in an altercation that you start or escalate. "Mutual Combat" is what they call it here in Ohio, where both parties either by default or fact consent to a fight.
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Old October 21, 2011, 08:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
when some one is in error and you wish to approach them in a civil manner, fine but with today's popularity of civillian clp licenses, believing it is a good idea to approach a stranger in anger and threatening demeanor, well that day is just over.
An armed society is a polite society.

Still, IMHO you went a little too far in your thoughts- even if you acted perfectly. Demeanors don't kill.
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Old October 21, 2011, 10:20 AM   #21
briandg
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It seems as if everyone here has forgotten that there are road rage killings and random attacks by insane people all the time. I remember a while back, an old guy honked at a bunch of punks that were hanging around in a street that he had to drive down, who wouldn't let him through. This mob of people dragged him out of his car, and beat, kicked, stomped him to death right out in the street, in front of god and everyone, because he had the audacity to ask them to get out of his way.

Is it likely that a 350 pound scary looking guy who gets furious about a line cutter will drag you out of your car and inflict serious injury on you? No, it isn't likely to happen.

Does it happen? Lord yes, it happens. It happens at stores, and even school cafeterias. What is smart about assuming that everything will be fine?

If I had a brain fart and committed a social offense like this, and godzilla got out of his vehicle yelling at me, I would be preparing for the worst. screwing up in traffic is not justification for aassault, and I'm not going to risk being beaten, stabbed, or even shot because some unbalanced baloney loaf wanted to make an example out of me.

This guy was out of line. cutting in line is no big deal. If driver #2 did this because he saw some skinny little white guy in the driver's seat, it was racist and a violation of the skinny little white guy's civil rights.

Part of me is wishing that today he does that same stunt to a car full of bangers who get out and cut him up a little to teach him some manners.

You guys seem to be focusing only on the failures on driver #1, and entirely blowing off what he did right.

You are totally ignoring the fact that driver # 2 began the confrontation, and appeared to be ready and willing to escalate it to physical violence.

There is no room for racism in a concealed carry situation, but profiling isn't racist, no matter how much the profiled races scream about it.

For those who question the legal grounds, I would like to say that you are way off base. Driver #2's behavior verges on assault. Assault charges DO NOT allow for provocation as justifying it. If he had opened the door and even placed a finger on driver #1's flesh, that would be battery. At that time, with a yelling 350 pound behemoth grabbing a person by the shirt, any non-prejudiced jury would have to acquit.
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Old October 21, 2011, 10:23 AM   #22
Pezo
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Thank you all for your comments. "Over re-act?" I apologize and went to the back of the line. How is that over reacting? I move the gun and holster from view on the counsel and hid them. That was a positive reaction. Keeping the gun hidden in my right hand behind seat was a safety preventitive, not confrontational action. Also, if this "man" would have grabbed the door open he would have been right on me. I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted to shake hands. I wasn't going to wait until he crushed my skull. There would have been no legal, logical reason for him to breach my vehicle! Any reasoable person would have had reasonable fear of great bodily harm considering his size, anger and ability. But still I would not at all wanted to be forced to shoot and deal with all that anymore.
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Old October 21, 2011, 11:31 AM   #23
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This reminds me of a recent murder in amarillo where a man and his family were getting gas at a Sam's store and he was parked a few car lengths back waiting for a pump to open up that had the nozzle on the correct side. A lady pulled up, not knowing what he was doing, and pulled into an open spot and just stretched the hose over her car. The man confronted her for cutting in line and after a loud argument he chased her down the interstate and ran her off of the road, killing her in the crash. You never know a persons intent when they approach you. When you are smaller, weaker, or otherwise inferior to them I say use whatever means necessary to defend your life.
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Old October 21, 2011, 11:46 AM   #24
MikeGunz
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from the sound of it the guy just came up to you and told you that there was a line and you about pulled a gun on him. Maybe you shouldn't carry concealed

before you shoot somebody. Only way my pistol is coming out of the holster is if
I believe that im in immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, or some

one else is. A man coming up to me telling me that I cut a line doesn't cut it.
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Old October 21, 2011, 12:07 PM   #25
Pezo
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Some of these comments are just bizzarr. The " man did not just "come up and tell me" I thought I made that clear! He emarched up shoulders shrugged, fist closed with blood shot eyes and an obvious fury and shouted at me. Then stared me down for a significant length of time in order to appear intimidating! Helllo!! Hence the ccapitalized words! You tell me I shouldn't have a ccw because I showed restraint and de esculated the situation with a non- confrontational attitude? What the '. I hope some you don't either wind up in a self defense scenirio it would be ashame to see a clp holder beat and shot with his own gun! And the use of the word man with quotations is because yes anyone who acts like that in public is less of a man. They have no class or patience.what if he acted like that towards a 30 year old house wife with a toddler in the car. This guy uses confrontation and intimadation towars the public when he gets "mad". Like charlie brown good grief
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