Carrying while working in bar?

Nmadole · October 17, 2011, 02:51 PM

I was recently hired by a security company to work security at an upscale bar. I am required to be armed by my employer. I have a current/valid Michigan CPL. Bars are a pistol free zone, but my employer informed me that having written concent from the owner of the bar allows me to carry in the bar. I was told it is an extension of the owners right to carry on his property.

I cannot find any legislation regarding this?

Please help me... I start work next week

Nick

Chaz88 · October 17, 2011, 02:59 PM

In my state you would get a letter from your employer stating that carry is a condition of employment then use that to get a professional permit.

Nmadole · October 17, 2011, 03:17 PM

So I should not accept written concent of the owner? I don't want to violate any laws?

aarondhgraham · October 17, 2011, 03:22 PM

Why are you asking us?

We're internet forum members,,,
Not lawyers.

I would call the Office of the DA in your area,,,
Get the answer from the one who would or would not prosecute you.

Aarond

Chaz88 · October 17, 2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

So I should not accept written concent of the owner? I don't want to violate any laws?

I do not know what works in your state. Might want to contact the permit issuing authority in your state and ask.

If written consent from the employer is not adequate in your state it is you that will be on the hook. If you are carrying for work I think it would increase your chances of having to use your weapon, better cover your 6.

Nmadole · October 17, 2011, 03:27 PM

Thanks everyone, wasn't sure who to call to ask the question. I will try to get in touch with my local DA. If I don't get answers there where else should I look?

Nick

Stressfire · October 17, 2011, 03:34 PM

State Attorney General would be the logical follow up if answers are not readily available locally.

You could also call your Sheriff, or whatever agency issued your permit in the first place.

Might want to see if you can get a response in writing, just in case

Webleymkv · October 17, 2011, 03:35 PM

The DA would probably be one of the better people to ask, but your local police, MI State Police, or the MI Attorney General might also be good sources of information.

Skans · October 17, 2011, 03:47 PM

In my state, anyone who can carry via a cc license that is of the type issued to the general public cannot carry in "place of nuisance" (includes bar) This is prohibited and no exception is made for employees or owner of the business. Now, there is a different statute where security guards, etc. can be licensed to carry - but that is not the same as the statute governing concealed carry directed to the general public.

In order to become an Armed Security Guard in Florida, you would have to obtain a Class G license. To do this plan on spending upwards of 50 hours in provisional training classes and obtain various certifications to become a licensed armed security guard. Probably need to pass some tests too. And, I still don't know if you can be an armed security guard inside of a bar.

johnbt · October 18, 2011, 08:53 AM

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...n_CPL_Holders_

2. I work as a security guard. Does my profession entitle me to carry a concealed pistol without a license in Michigan as required by my employer?

MCL 750.227 No. You can only carry a pistol while on duty on the premises of your employer and only if it is exposed.

If you wish to carry a pistol concealed, you must obtain a concealed pistol license through the county gun board.

28.425n(2)b This does not prohibit an employer from prohibiting the carrying of the concealed pistol by an employee while in the course of his or her employment with that employer.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 18, 2011, 05:36 PM

Each state has different laws, and District Attorneys are NOT in the business of providing legal advice to private citizens. Their job is prosecuting criminals.

Also, the "issuing authority" for CCW licenses/permits may or may not give you an answer, and may or may not be the correct agency/authority to even ask. In my home state and in Florida (where I have a non-resident permit), there is a separate license required to work and carry as armed security. A private citizen's CCW is not sufficient for working as armed security in my state.

Your state laws may be different.

Ask a lawyer. Pay him/her $100 for a half hour appointment and get an honest answer based on YOUR state's laws.

wally626 · October 18, 2011, 07:46 PM

Michigan Code found at http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...s/firearms.pdf

Quote:

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

Sec. 5o. (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:
...
(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. ...

Looks like Owners and Employees can carry in a bar, to carry concealed you would still need a concealed carry permit. Without a carry pemit you can only open carry.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 18, 2011, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally626

Michigan Code found at http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...s/firearms.pdf
...

Looks like Owners and Employees can carry in a bar, to carry concealed you would still need a concealed carry permit. Without a carry pemit you can only open carry.

Basic problem: The OP is not an employee of the bar, he is an employee of a security company that is a contractor to the bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nmadole

I was recently hired by a security company to work security at an upscale bar. I am required to be armed by my employer. I have a current/valid Michigan CPL.

johnbt · October 19, 2011, 08:05 AM

Does he/will he take orders from the manager on duty? If he does he is probably an employee. But I don't know the actual law/regs for that state.

John

Chaz88 · October 19, 2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

I was recently hired by a security company

If the security company can not answer this question, and back it up with copies of the appropriate section of the law, I would be a little concerned about working for them.

brickeyee · October 19, 2011, 10:21 AM

Quote:

local police, MI State Police

Police are almost always a poor source of actual legal knowledge.

They are not attorneys.

Make sure the owner has a LOT of insurance.

You do not want to be on the hook to defend yourself in court.

It would be a good idea to discuss this with a local attorney on YOUR nickle.

overkill0084 · October 19, 2011, 10:34 AM

Quote:

If the security company can not answer this question, and back it up with copies of the appropriate section of the law, I would be a little concerned about working for them.

^^ This. The security company should be well read on issues of compliance that they are responsible for. On issues they are unsure of, they should have the services of a lawyer close at hand. If not, I would be worried. Armed security companies that can't comply with ALL applicable laws will end up out of business in a hurry, with perhaps a few employees in jail.
CYA applies here. If your employer won't do it, you need to.

brickeyee · October 19, 2011, 11:26 AM

Quote:

On issues they are unsure of, they should have the services of a lawyer close at hand.

Just keep in mind their attorney is there to protect their ass, NOT yours.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 19, 2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnbt

Does he/will he take orders from the manager on duty? If he does he is probably an employee. But I don't know the actual law/regs for that state.

Doesn't matter what state. Your employer is who pays you, and who issues your W-2 for your income tax return. If he "was recently hired" by a security company, then he is an employee of the security company. He is NOT an employee of the bar.

Stressfire · October 19, 2011, 06:16 PM

I might be more concerned about working at a bar that requires armed security

I worked as a bouncer at a bowling alley bar for 1 night and I was done. Patrick Swayze can keep it

Did not have a CCW at the time, but carried mace, baton, and a few other goodies plus some MA training - had to use all of it in just a few hours. Crazy azz bikers...

Don P · October 20, 2011, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Why are you asking us?

We're Internet forum members,,,
Not lawyers.

Because if you read it on the INTERNET is HAS to be TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and considered the gospel

brickeyee · October 20, 2011, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Doesn't matter what state. Your employer is who pays you, and who issues your W-2 for your income tax return. If he "was recently hired" by a security company, then he is an employee of the security company. He is NOT an employee of the bar.

Not nearly that simple.

It depends on the contractual relationship between the bar and security company.

The IRS rules are for taxes, nothing else.

I hired security guard from another company may well be an 'employee' of the bar.

October 17, 2011, 02:51 PM	#1
Nmadole Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2011 Posts: 3	Carrying while working in bar? I was recently hired by a security company to work security at an upscale bar. I am required to be armed by my employer. I have a current/valid Michigan CPL. Bars are a pistol free zone, but my employer informed me that having written concent from the owner of the bar allows me to carry in the bar. I was told it is an extension of the owners right to carry on his property. I cannot find any legislation regarding this? Please help me... I start work next week Nick

October 17, 2011, 02:59 PM	#2
Chaz88 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2010 Posts: 1,243	In my state you would get a letter from your employer stating that carry is a condition of employment then use that to get a professional permit. __________________ Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time. No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.

October 17, 2011, 03:22 PM	#4
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Honestly my friend,,, Why are you asking us? We're internet forum members,,, Not lawyers. I would call the Office of the DA in your area,,, Get the answer from the one who would or would not prosecute you. Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

October 17, 2011, 03:34 PM	#7
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	State Attorney General would be the logical follow up if answers are not readily available locally. You could also call your Sheriff, or whatever agency issued your permit in the first place. Might want to see if you can get a response in writing, just in case __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott

October 17, 2011, 03:47 PM	#9
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	In my state, anyone who can carry via a cc license that is of the type issued to the general public cannot carry in "place of nuisance" (includes bar) This is prohibited and no exception is made for employees or owner of the business. Now, there is a different statute where security guards, etc. can be licensed to carry - but that is not the same as the statute governing concealed carry directed to the general public. In order to become an Armed Security Guard in Florida, you would have to obtain a Class G license. To do this plan on spending upwards of 50 hours in provisional training classes and obtain various certifications to become a licensed armed security guard. Probably need to pass some tests too. And, I still don't know if you can be an armed security guard inside of a bar. Last edited by Skans; October 17, 2011 at 04:01 PM.

October 17, 2011, 03:17 PM	#3
Nmadole Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2011 Posts: 3	So I should not accept written concent of the owner? I don't want to violate any laws?

October 17, 2011, 03:27 PM	#6
Nmadole Junior Member Join Date: October 17, 2011 Posts: 3	Thanks everyone, wasn't sure who to call to ask the question. I will try to get in touch with my local DA. If I don't get answers there where else should I look? Nick

October 17, 2011, 03:35 PM	#8
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	The DA would probably be one of the better people to ask, but your local police, MI State Police, or the MI Attorney General might also be good sources of information.

October 18, 2011, 08:53 AM	#10
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...n_CPL_Holders_ 2. I work as a security guard. Does my profession entitle me to carry a concealed pistol without a license in Michigan as required by my employer? MCL 750.227 No. You can only carry a pistol while on duty on the premises of your employer and only if it is exposed. If you wish to carry a pistol concealed, you must obtain a concealed pistol license through the county gun board. 28.425n(2)b This does not prohibit an employer from prohibiting the carrying of the concealed pistol by an employee while in the course of his or her employment with that employer.

October 18, 2011, 05:36 PM	#11
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	Each state has different laws, and District Attorneys are NOT in the business of providing legal advice to private citizens. Their job is prosecuting criminals. Also, the "issuing authority" for CCW licenses/permits may or may not give you an answer, and may or may not be the correct agency/authority to even ask. In my home state and in Florida (where I have a non-resident permit), there is a separate license required to work and carry as armed security. A private citizen's CCW is not sufficient for working as armed security in my state. Your state laws may be different. Ask a lawyer. Pay him/her $100 for a half hour appointment and get an honest answer based on YOUR state's laws.

October 19, 2011, 08:05 AM	#14
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	Does he/will he take orders from the manager on duty? If he does he is probably an employee. But I don't know the actual law/regs for that state. John

October 19, 2011, 06:16 PM	#20
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	I might be more concerned about working at a bar that requires armed security I worked as a bouncer at a bowling alley bar for 1 night and I was done. Patrick Swayze can keep it Did not have a CCW at the time, but carried mace, baton, and a few other goodies plus some MA training - had to use all of it in just a few hours. Crazy azz bikers... __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott