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Old September 18, 2011, 06:29 PM   #1
stonewall50
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Active shooter plan

I feel that we need a discussion on what the priorities and duties of an LEO vs Concealed Carry. I say this because I feel it is important for us Concealed holders to understand that we are NOT LEO. If someone IS an LEO...they have different ROE dictated by a different civic duty goals. Anyway here is my plan.

Now running down a gameplan type list of my priorities WITH gun:
1)Take cover/Move. This is absolutely the most important part of ANY plan. If you watch the 20/20 episode on "Gun's in the Classroom" you will notice of their MANY flaws in their NON-Scientific, control variable lacking, "experiment," that every STUDENT who had a gun did NOT take cover when the shooter entered the room. The fact that they KNEW the shooter was coming in and had already PLANNED to attack is what got them shot. Had they not known the incident was going to happen...and planned on taking cover first they would have stood a chance.(take that anti-gun liberal "news" I will use your fake test as a way to learn how to improve my real world game plan).
2)Assess the situation and determine best option (fight or flight...who is the threat...with what are they threatening).
Shooter in Range:
A) Do I have the advantage? Is he Aware? If no to advantage then stay down...or return fire as situation dictates.
B) Can I hit him without hitting anyone else? If no to above...well I will do my best, but I am probably going to attempt to kill him if he is shooting at me.
C) If yes to A&B...Shoot to kill.
D)Aftermath plan...scan crowd with weapon LOWERED...call police. Clear and holster weapon, take cover, stay on phone with dispatch. make sure the cops know I am a good guy.

Shooter out of Range:
A)Who do I need to get out of the situation in my immediate area? Family, Friends, Bystanders? I am not the police and my first priority should be to ensure the safety of others and myself.
B)If I get those around me out...who needs medical attention? I am First Aid/CPR, not LEO.
C)If I do not need to assist in moving people OUT...can I move foward without detection?
D)Are there any other armed people in my area(friendlies that I might shoot at ME or I can coordinate with...including LEO that may require assistance...and in the case to LEO, do they want it?) moving foward or in place?
E)Which way is the shooter moving? Can I get the drop? Will I make him aware?
F)MOVE FOWARD and proceed to shooter in range steps.

My FIRST priority is to ensure the safety of those around me by MY actions with my BRAIN and my FIREARM. By that I mean...are my actions that of a responsible, NON-Law Enforcement, CIVILLIAN? If I press the attack and the shooter is out of SIGHT, I am no longer retreating and PROBABLY doing more harm than good in an active shooter situation. If he is only in rifle range the effect is still really the same. I have a handgun. I can justify very little in terms of attack. That is for ME too. That is what I have determined MY abilities can do. I think that most of this plan can work itself out within split seconds...some of it may take a little longer and a bit of force on our part, like situational awareness and actually doing a REAL scan.
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Old September 18, 2011, 06:35 PM   #2
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You're pretty much stating the obvious. What type of discussion did you want to have?
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Old September 18, 2011, 07:06 PM   #3
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I think about this often, but not as much as you apparently. Truthfully, if its just me and I need to bug out and can, I am buggin out, unless I am trapped then I am taking the shooter down with me or without me preferred.

If my kids are threatened then there is nothing that will stop me from taking out the BG. My biggest fear is that the cops will kill me accidentally before I go after the BG.

Out of range...we are all outta there! There is no sense getting shot if I can save my family.
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Old September 18, 2011, 08:19 PM   #4
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What discussion....?

Please try not to take this on a negative but what really is your intent in regards to "discussion"

You pretty much lay it out there what you are going to do. Really it's pretty obvious - stating what most folks would do.


Now, there are lots of fine points you have to clarify... The most is... Is the Active Shooter... Actively shooting and where are the police? Meaning are they there or like the real world 5-10 minutes or more out to respond?

There are so many variables.. Changing just one and depending on the sequence will or may impact your reaction and options to react or take action or not.

As to your concerns of being shot by the police... If you are not yourself actively shooting back.. Concealed is concealed or another way to think about it is don't be aiming down on others as this is clearly something anyone would mistake as a hostile act. This does not mean don't take aim at the BG if you are able to take the shot... Many factors comes into play too... Where are the police? If they are there then let them take the BG but if it's only you...

So many factors and variables... In general you have a plan. It depends a lot on how much and when you know... The things to make a somewhat rationale decision.
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Old September 18, 2011, 08:41 PM   #5
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Remember; no plan survives the first contact, intact.

If you're still there when the cops get there the best thing you can do is surrender. I'm an active police officer and we train regularly on active shooter scenarios. In our agency we're coming in hard with violent action and extreme aggression. Anyone holding a gun who does not immediately surrender, drop the gun and follow immediate verbal instructions is in danger of being shot.

Don't get me wrong, guys. I've never had any trouble from a law-abiding citizen with a gun. I assume that everyone I stop is armed because I live in a very gun-friendly state. I've got no problem with citizens holding guns and I'm a staunch 2A supporter. However, in an active-shooter scenario I don't have time to separate the sheep from the goats.

Quote:
C) If yes to A&B...Shoot to kill.
Negative, negative, negative. Shoot to stop. All we want to do is stop the guy. If you shoot him three or four times and he stops, then you've done good. If he dies on the way to the hospital, that's his problem. If he'd have stopped earlier, he wouldn't have been shot so much.

Quote:
D)Aftermath plan...scan crowd with weapon LOWERED...call police. Clear and holster weapon, take cover, stay on phone with dispatch. make sure the cops know I am a good guy.
You're thinking through it anyway. I don't know if you'd have the fine motor skills necessary to use a cell-phone. After a shooting, you'll have a huge adrenaline dump and you might not have the fine motor skills to do anything but sit down. If you can use the phone, it would be a great idea to let the dispatcher know that you're a good guy, but you're probably going to be cuffed anyway. Don't take it personally. Everyone in the area who has a gun is probably going to be cuffed. We'll apologize when it's over. Really, we will.

It's a good idea to think about these things. I make my living thinking about these things. I hope I never have to use any of it.

And remember. No plan survives the first contact, intact.
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Old September 18, 2011, 08:54 PM   #6
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I am also an LEO and we are trained to go direct to threat with at least two officers. We have the option of taking a carbine or a shotgun, but will have one in the car at all times. I draw my carbine everyday and have my plate carrier with level 4 esapi plates on the passenger seat . When I am off duty I am usually out with at least one of my kids (mostly the baby) so my main priority is to get out the area. In the event I do get into an off duty shooting, as soon as the threat(s) get neutralized I am holstering, getting out of the immediate area and calling 911 and taking directions from there.
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Old September 18, 2011, 11:56 PM   #7
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It seems to me in a shooting situation, there probably is not enough information for you to even pull your gun unless the shooter is shooting multiple people. Is he an off duty or plain clothes LEO? Is he another CC civilian trying to handle a bad situation that you do not see? There is just too much that we would not know.
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Old September 19, 2011, 09:52 AM   #8
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How much have you (OP) trained in intensive scenarios as compared to static range exercises? Paper plans are all well and good but ...
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Old September 19, 2011, 12:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
“Remember; no plan survives the first contact, intact.”
So true, but at least there is that first second before things turn to dirt.

Quote:
”I think about this often, but not as much as you apparently. Truthfully, if its just me and I need to bug out and can, I am buggin out, unless I am trapped then I am taking the shooter down with me or without me preferred.

If my kids are threatened then there is nothing that will stop me from taking out the BG. My biggest fear is that the cops will kill me accidentally before I go after the BG.

Out of range...we are all outta there! There is no sense getting shot if I can save my family.”
AA +1

When I was on the job one of my greatest fears was having to deal with an untrained armed citizen who wanted to help out, I was afraid that he would shoot at me or I would be forced to shoot him. I made the decision that anyone who was displaying a weapon was a danger to me, and anyone with a weapon who turned in my direction with a gun in their hand was an immediate danger to be and would be dealt with accordingly. I’m very happy to note that I never had to make this decision under shoot or don’t shoot conditions.
Ladies and gentlemen as C/C holders we must remember that is all we are, we are neither L.E.O’s nor avenging angels; we have the right to carry a concealed weapon and nothing more.

Last edited by old bear; September 19, 2011 at 06:43 PM.
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Old September 19, 2011, 12:39 PM   #10
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This topic has been discussed at length in historical threads.

Why is there no mention of calling 9-1-1 in your plan of attack until after you've "shot to kill"!? Getting police/SWAT and paramedics to the scene, and giving them accurate information regarding the shooter(s), their location(s), etc, is highest priority beyond your own personal safety, and could mean life or death for anybody who has already been shot.

And the answer to your question is a resounding NO, police do not want your assistance. Exit when it is safe to do so, preferably from wherever the SWAT/police entered from. Do not shout or talk to them, keep your hands open and visable.

Suggest the following reading:

1. DHS informational poster on how to respond when there is an active shooter in your vicinity. These can be printed or ordered, and distributed at your office.
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/a...ter_poster.pdf

2. DHS pocket reference
http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/a...ocket_card.pdf

3. 20-page DHS booklet on Active Shooters
http://www.alerts.si.edu/docs/DHS_ActiveShooterBook.pdf

4. SEMA training for active shooters at schools
http://training.dps.mo.gov/trainingw...C?Opendocument

Last edited by booker_t; September 19, 2011 at 02:13 PM.
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Old September 19, 2011, 08:31 PM   #11
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A long time ago, . . . reinforced by the shooting in Arizona some months back (as well as other shootings that made the news), . . . I made up a 2 step "Battle Plan" for myself. It is similar to moose_nukelz ideas.

It may not work for anyone else, . . . but it is how I plan to handle a "Deadly Situation".

1st: At the immediate outset, . . . I'm asking myself if there is enough evidence up front to make be believe my life, limb, or life/limb of someone under my "umbrella" is in jeapardy.

If the answer is yes, . . . my 2nd question is "Is escape a viable option?" If it is, . . . I'm outa here, . . . exit stage left, . . . goodbye Dodge City.

If escape is not an option, . . . then the shooting starts, . . . and will quit when the threat is no longer a threat.

This decision making process should take all of a very few short seconds, . . . max.

I train that way, . . . I live that way, . . . it has worked for 66+ years.

Calling 911 is important, . . . YES IT IS, . . . but my safety and those under my umbrella comes first.

May God bless,
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Old September 19, 2011, 09:49 PM   #12
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A LEO has a duty and responsibility to take action, I am an citizen and I do not. If I feel that my life is in immediate peril and I mean immediate, I will act to protect myself. If a some mad-man with a gun a running around, I will call 911 and remove myself from the area. If confronted or unable to escape and forced to fire my weapon..I will do my best, reholster when finished and remain close to speak to the Police. Its really not much deeper than that.
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Old September 20, 2011, 09:23 AM   #13
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I might suggest that if you are mistaken for a BG as you act as a Good Samaritan and the law or another civilian takes a shot at you, it is probably not a good idea to shoot back at them. Legally or morally. Also, general bashing of police isn't our thing.

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Old October 3, 2011, 03:29 AM   #14
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Just wondering how many of you, (including LEO's) have actually been in a firefight?
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Old October 3, 2011, 05:51 AM   #15
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I haven't been in one before, but I guess you were asking for the opposite.
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Old October 3, 2011, 06:08 AM   #16
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finished reading entire thread. Depending on the situation, I might or might not intervene during a life-threatening encounter. That would be up to me, and I would do what I felt was right. I trust my judgement, and I wouldn't carry if I didn't. Hopefully and probably it will not happen, but I don't think I would hesitate if I had a golden opportunity to save a life while stopping a BG(some people would freeze up, over think things, or hesitate too long). It goes without saying that different situations and different factors always play a role on this decision making: with family, number of BG's, CCW+ammo on hand, crowded situation, and so-on.
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Old October 3, 2011, 04:16 PM   #17
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Stonewall50

as a very wise member stated... Very few plans survive the initial contact. This is IME absoloutly true.
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Old October 4, 2011, 12:47 AM   #18
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I can't disagree Glenn with that and other similar responses in this thread. I do think there are some people in this world who are willing to act and also those that probably will not though - the same can be said for citizen rescuers in natural disasters, fires, and so-on.

http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/ar...ts-4-suspects/

I will also state that the off-duty officer in this story(copied and pasted from another recent thread on TFL) isn't Required to act in these situations(in my opinion).
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Old October 4, 2011, 11:02 AM   #19
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I read the DHS "How to Respond" flyer, and it pretty much sums up my ideas on the matter in the same order as me.

#1 - FLEE - Get the hell out of the area as fast as possible if at all possible.

#2 - HIDE - If #1 is not possible, then take cover and hide. If the opportunity for #1 arises, then back to #1.

#3 - FIGHT - If the "it's me or him" situation arises, engage the assailant by whatever means are available in an attempt to stop the threat.

#4 - If still alive and able, start over at #1.

CHL holders are not licensed for the purposes of "intervening" in any situation with a firearm nor are they licensed to kill. Law enforcement persons are "licensed" for the purposes of intervention with deadly force or offensive uses of deadly force. A CHL entitles a civilian to carry a deadly weapon out in public for the sole purpose of self preservation to stop imminent threats of deadly force against your person. The words self, defense, and stop are the key words. Beyond that, you may just be another assailant exposed to law enforcement deadly force and/or subsequent prosecution.

The definition of self as used above may include family members and other third person as the context and local law allow.

Hopefully, my plan is simple enough to execute under duress.
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Old October 4, 2011, 11:53 AM   #20
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Call me the knight in shining armor but in a single active shooter situation with no friends or family I would feel compelled to protect women and children. I am not a LEO but I could not live with myself if as an armed citizen I hid while I knew someone was offing women and little kids right near me. I am not talking about running across a mall to confront a shooter but if the shooter was within range and threatening a group of women and children I think most of you LEOS or not would act.

Remember though, not all active shooter situations are created equal.

The thing I have war-gamed in my head though many many times and I can still not think of an easy outcome was a multiple active shooter attack on a place like a mall or shopping center. Maxim Magazine(I know you are all starting to laugh right about now) had an article a couple of years after 9/11 that stuck with me. The article detailed just how easy it would be for terrorist types, using only small arms or other easily obtainable things to inflict mass casualties. The one that stuck out was a multiple shooter in a mall scenario, where you have several groups of two working from multiple entrances basically corralling people towards each other for the slaughter. That is one case where hide is probably the best and only real option.
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Old October 5, 2011, 08:05 AM   #21
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not only that Patriot (referring to the two posts in between this one and my last one), an off-duty LEO has the same rights as a civilian often times. Yes, he/she might be a Chicago cop on duty, but while offduty vacationing the family in Indiana this is a mute point .

Also, following plans can get someone killed. Don't get me wrong, they are good and it is prudent to have them, but sometimes doing something instead of hiding or running is beneficial. Someone might think it is best to run/hide and/or it might be their first thought, but that doesn't mean it's the best route to go. Only YOU know if you can do something to save people and end a threat. Trusting your instinct and acting in an appropriate manner is very important.

Don't be superman, but manytimes a CCW can save the day. Of course you are always risking your life while you do so - same as someone who runs into a burning house to save someone. Sometimes they come out, and sometimes they don't. Lots of times the person does make it though. Those two guys at the Pentagon on 9/11 who rushed back in saved a number of people, soldiers, sailors, etc and that situation was pretty much as dangerous as it can get. they also had to go against the grain to do it, and they claimed it was a no-brainer.
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Old October 5, 2011, 08:56 AM   #22
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This is an interesting discussion. Reading through it, Patriot86's comments were my thoughts, and then he verbalized them. While I wouldn't start clearing rooms searching for a shooter, I would probably respond if someone was being attacked near me. I'd be very surprised if, with so many witnesses nearby, I would have any problem justifying my actions.
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Old October 6, 2011, 12:17 AM   #23
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Recently had some training for our office in this type of thing, the LEO presenting the day's training informed us that if you want to try and hide, go ahead, the shooter will methodically find and kill you in turn. When engaged by police, many such shooters will commit suicide, so the old tactic of waiting for reinforcements, SWAT, and such things, are now replaced by the tactic of immediate engagement, according to our trainer. He emphasized that anyone fighting back, by throwing objects, chairs, whatever, may jolt the nutcase into suicide or an inactive state, as well as gain time for police to arrive before additional lives are lost. In other words, we may get killed while fighting for our lives, but we will get killed if we don't.
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Old October 6, 2011, 08:43 AM   #24
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Also, following plans can get someone killed.

Agreed 100%. Active shooter situations can present themselves in different ways, in different locations.

You could be eating dinner when some guy comes in and shoots the couple next to you (his ex and her new man) and walks outside and kills himself. Or you could be in a crowd when a gangbanger starts shooting wildly trying to hit a guy who owes him money. Then, there is the VT/Ft Hood/New Life Church type which is a whole different ball of wax.

It's certainly not a one-size-fits-all scenario you can plan effectively for. Personally, if I can take action to protect the innocent, I will.
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Old October 14, 2011, 10:48 AM   #25
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QUOTE: Hiker1

You could be eating dinner when some guy comes in and shoots the couple next to you (his ex and her new man) and walks outside and kills himself. Or you could be in a crowd when a gangbanger starts shooting wildly trying to hit a guy who owes him money. Then, there is the VT/Ft Hood/New Life Church type which is a whole different ball of wax.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since getting out of the Marine Corp and carrying a rifle in vietnam, I look back at the dangerous situations I have sometimes encountered thru the years, never being armed. Then even with some close calls at places where
I frequent, having armed robberies I still never bothered to bother to go get a gun permit. You mention VT/Ft Hook being a different ball of wax.
That one event at Ft Hood, caused me to make the decision finally go spend the dollars for the training, the weapons, and to obtain a Texas CWP. So now I carry because I believe there is greater danger now from armed criminals, home invaders, carjacker, and muslim jihadists than years ago.
And also now gangbangers who don't read no gun signs. I try to think thru
potential situations but like someone said, no plan survives the initial contact.
And in watching videos on this forum and others, it seems like situations can happen so fast, it would be easy to get confused about identifying the threat.
Seems like some of the shootings are all over in less than a minute. I train
regularly but hope I do not every have to use deadly force to stop someone
and I am reluctant to act unless me or my family are at risk.

Last edited by TexasJustice7; October 14, 2011 at 10:55 AM.
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