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Old October 11, 2011, 11:45 AM   #26
Doc Hoy
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The bigger the organization....

....the more likely there will be a stray lawyer around with a little time on his hands. A lawyer with nothing to do is a dangerous thing.

I doubt that Dixie Gun Works even has a lawyer on retainer. I think the whole operation is less than a dozen people.

I think at the persent time the attacks on the second amendment are on the ebb. The DC vs. Heller decision supported the second amendment and seems to speak of a court that is conservative at least on that point. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act - 2006 protects gun manufacturers. All of the Republican candidates seem to be pro-2A (At least they are for today) The Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street folks are not grinding the anti-gun organ. Independents are proabably more pro-2A than main stream Republicans.

We need to be vigilant but in this case it is wrong to be extreme. The extremist weakens his case by his own excess.

How did this thread get to this point?
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Old October 11, 2011, 05:14 PM   #27
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Is ASM a reliable maker for C&B revolvers?
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Old October 11, 2011, 06:11 PM   #28
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What about the brass-framed 1858 Rems by Pietta? Good gun??
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Old October 11, 2011, 06:55 PM   #29
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No "right" choice, it's like asking "Which is Better-Colt or S&W?" I have found the Colt grip general more comfortable than the Remington. My personal favorite is the Colt Dragoon-firing it is like firing an S&W M-28 with 38s.
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Old October 11, 2011, 07:08 PM   #30
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ASM never had a good rep for quality tho some do like them. Fit and finish was pretty good but a lot of them had soft internal parts that wore out fast.
A brass Remington is ok but steel is so much better.
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Old October 11, 2011, 07:21 PM   #31
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I've been nosin' around a little a came onto what seems a good deal on the Pietta Brass Rem...probably wouldn't do it except that it's brand new and very reasonable priced and it will give me my start in C&B revolvers. Price is way under $200 and provides some extras also. So I think I'm leaning that direction...

I really wanted the brass '51 Navy but this seems a better choice for my needs at present.
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Old October 12, 2011, 06:44 AM   #32
Doc Hoy
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You are going to wind up.....

.....spending a little money on the stuff that goes along with the revolver. So if the stuff you are getting with the deal you have found is enough to shoot the revolver and clean it up afterwords I would think hard about it.

Brass frame Remington is fine. Good start.

Powder is $20+
Caps are $5
Lube is $5 (but you should make your own)
Bullets are $15
Rem Oil is $6 at Walmart

This stuff doesn't wear out, it gets used up. This gives you some idea where you should be on the price. You should be able to buy the revolver for somewhere around $125.00. Then just figure the value of the stuff that is included with it.
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Old October 12, 2011, 09:12 AM   #33
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Well, I have gobs of powder both 2f & 3f, probably 1000 #10 caps, no bullets buts lots of lead - probably should just buy a mould - and of course can make the lube.

The Rem, like I said, is NIB plus has an extra cylinder. It is $160. I'm thinking that's a pretty fair deal but maybe you'd advise otherwise??
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Old October 12, 2011, 10:00 AM   #34
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DL

If you don't buy it, I will.

Yes buy a mold but you may want to experiment with ball sizes first. If you just want to wade in, get a .454.

With an extra cylinder a loading press is even more advantageous.

$160 for all that stuff is a good price.
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Old October 13, 2011, 07:24 AM   #35
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sounds like a great deal. i usually see those on sale for $200-$250, a cylinder is another 50 bucks or so. if you decide you don't like it, sell a 'slightly used' 1858 for what you paid and the cylinder for $50.
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Old October 17, 2011, 12:28 AM   #36
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SO how does a Pietta compare to an Armi San MArcos for quality?
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Old October 17, 2011, 03:02 AM   #37
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SO how does a Pietta compare to an Armi San MArcos for quality?
ASM had a spotty history for quality with soft internal parts that didn't last long. Pietta is top notch, on a par with Uberti, maybe better these days. Some say Uberti's finish is better but the overall quality of the guns is the same.
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Old October 17, 2011, 06:11 AM   #38
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I have both makers products and I agree 100% with Hawg.
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Old October 17, 2011, 06:17 AM   #39
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Actually ALL the Italian manufacturers were plagued with soft internal parts problems at one time, ASM being the worst. ASM also had a reputation for cosmetic issues (fit and finish) but function was usually acceptable. Pietta was considered better than ASM but worse than Uberti. The soft parts issue has been corrected, it seems, and Pietta has significantly improved their quality in recent times so that they compete with Uberti.
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Old October 17, 2011, 07:12 AM   #40
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Actually ALL the Italian manufacturers were plagued with soft internal parts problems at one time, ASM being the worst. ASM also had a reputation for cosmetic issues (fit and finish) but function was usually acceptable. Pietta was considered better than ASM but worse than Uberti. The soft parts issue has been corrected, it seems, and Pietta has significantly improved their quality in recent times so that they compete with Uberti.
True dat. Pietta got new CNC machinery around 2000 and their quality went way up but not all the older Pietta's were bad. I have one made in 76 that's just as good as a new one. I got it used tho so I don't know what internals may have been replaced.
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Old October 17, 2011, 12:19 PM   #41
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Agree. There were many good replicas produced during the 'period of soft parts'. I've only owned one bad one and worked on a few others; the majority of what crossed my bench was good stuff. And the new Piettas sure look like they're up to snuff. But of course anyone is capable of producing the occasional lemon, and it doesn't take very many to create a bad rep. Too many people take one bad apple as being proof the whole orchard is bad.
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Old October 17, 2011, 12:38 PM   #42
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so if you have an ASM, is there a replacement parts kit that remedies the "soft" issues? Or maybe parts for Pietta/Uberti are a fit?
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Old October 17, 2011, 12:47 PM   #43
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ASM parts really do not exist any more, but Uberti parts can be used with a little fitting.
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Old October 20, 2011, 10:01 PM   #44
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Quote:
somebody said that the brass s-t-r-e-c-h-e-s with use, particularly with heavier loads. I would not really expect to be using such loads myself, but does anyone here concur with that opinion?
I do concur you want to load the brass frame Colt light! I have a brass frame Uberti 51 that was shot to Hell before I got it. It took quite a bit of smithing to make it right
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Old October 20, 2011, 11:51 PM   #45
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Been shooting cap and ball revolvers for about 40 years.
I would not buy a brass frame. Not only are they less resistant to higher pressures, brass-framed revolvers tend to be less better made.
Their fit and finish is often not as good as the steel-framed guns. It's as though the factories don't put the work into brass-framed guns, and that's why they're sold at a cheaper price.
Spend a little extra money and get a steel-framed gun.

I have Uberti, Pietta, Colt 2nd generation, ASM and Cimmaron guns.
The Colt 2nd generation, Uberti and Cimmaron are by far the best made.
My understanding is that Cimmaron purchases the best Ubertis, and then slicks them up a bit. The gaudy Italian proof marks found on Ubertis and other Italian-made guns are not as evident on Cimmaron guns. They're generally hid under the rammer, apparently by request from Cimmaron.
Cimmaron roll-marks its own name and address, in old-timey script, along the top of the barrel. It looks more authentic that way.
Uberti is very well made too.
The Colt 2nd generation is the standard by which reproductions are judged. It is not considered a reproduction, but a reissue. The frame and a few other parts were made by Uberti in Italy, then shipped to Colt for finishing.
Yet, detractors refer to them as "Italian made" and "Spaghetti Colts." Funny how these same detractors never mention "Limey Colts" made in London in the 1850s, or "Sushi Winchesters or Brownings" made by Miroku of Japan.

Ah well ...

Go with Uberti or Cimmaron if you can afford it. You'll end up with a revolver that, properly cared for, will last for generations.

Colt or Remington design? I shoot both. The Colt is far better balanced. It will also shoot longer before fouling causes the cylinder to drag: the Colt has a larger diameter cylinder pin, upon which the cylinder revolves. It is also machined with grooves to hold lubricant, and to allow someplace for fouling to collect.
The Remington has a small diameter cylinder pin, smooth, providing no place for grease to remain or fouling to collect.
The Colt and Remington are amply strong for black powder and its substitutes. The Remington is stronger than the Colt, if you foolishly try to exceed charges listed for the stronger Hodgdon 777, but staying within recommended loads of 777 (see the Hodgdon site) will keep both revolvers operating without accelerated wear.

The Colt 1851 and 1861 Navies have been proclaimed as one of the best-balanced revolvers ever made. The Remington is not nearly as well balanced, some find it very ill-balanced. It feels clunky in my hand, in both the .36 and .44 version, but it is accurate.

The Colt is far more forgiving if you load too much in a chamber and can't seat the ball deep enough for the cylinder to clear the barrel. Pop off the barrel, hold the cylinder back by hand, carefully cock it, and fire the protruding ball out of the chamber.
The Remington will require you to remove the nipple, scrape out the excess powder with a stick or brass pick (something that can't produce a spark), replace the nipple, seat the ball deeper and shoot it out.

The Colt is more prone to get cap fragments in its mechanism, tying it up. Some shooters reduce this tendency by carefully polishing the face of the hammer to slick smoothness, so the hammer can't grasp cap fragments.
The Remington is not so prone to pull caps back and drop them into the action, but it is more likely to get caps stuck between the frame and cylinder, tying it up.

By now, you're thoroughly confused.
Frankly, it's a matter of what feels good in your hand and appeals to your eye.
For newcomers, if they can afford it, I suggest a stainless steel Remington in .44 caliber (to my knowledge, no one makes a stainless steel .36 Remington).
I like the .36 caliber, but I also swear by the use of .380" diameter balls, not the recommended .375 inch. Alas, .380 balls are not usually available on the shelf, and require special ordering or casting your own.
However, with the .44 caliber, I recommend .454 inch balls. These are commonly available.

I don't use a separate loading device. I don't see the need for one. Either revolver is amply strong to withstand any sane seating pressure applied to balls or conical bullets with its attendant rammer.
Folks got along fine with the revolver's rammer for 150 years or so. I just don't see the need for more gear.

If you can find it, or order it, use real black powder. FFFG grade is preferred, but FFG will do in a pinch. It's the most accurate propellant I've found.

Felt wads soaked in a stiff, all-natural (non petroleum-based) lubricant such as SPG, Lyman Black Gold, lard, a mix of beeswax and lard, or the homemade lubricant named after me -- Gatofeo No. 1 -- are preferred between ball and powder. Hard felt is needed. You can buy Wonder Wads and soak them, but they cost about a dime apiece. If you buy hard, wool felt from Durofelt, off the net, and a punch, you can make your own wads for a penny or less.

In summation: Remington .44 caliber. Stainless steel if you can afford it. Avoid any and all brass frame guns. Use real black powder. The choice of Colt or Remington is a personal choice because both designs have benefits and failings. Don't feel obligated to purchase a separate loading device because the revolver's rammer works just fine.

Also, wear eye and ear protection. Never let anyone stand to the side when firing. While firing, keep all powder and caps behind you, out of the range of sparks. Keep your fingers away from the front of the cylinder when placing caps on the nipples. Don't judge the revolver's accuracy until you've put at least 100 rounds through it; it sometimes needs time to settle in (I can't explain this last statement, but I've seen it happen with some revolvers).

Be safe. Have fun. Carry more than a few grains of salt for all the suggestions and historical lore you'll hear at the range. A fair portion of it is fabrication, guesswork, fable or bragging.
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:04 AM   #46
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Yet, detractors refer to them as "Italian made" and "Spaghetti Colts." Funny how these same detractors never mention "Limey Colts" made in London in the 1850s
That's because they were manufactured in London at the COLT factory, that was owned and opened by Sam COLT. They were not manufactured by another company.

Quote:
or "Sushi Winchesters or Brownings" made by Miroku of Japan.
Yes they do. Read this thread. A lot of Miroku-chester (and Japan, for some reason) bashing in here.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460762
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Old October 21, 2011, 07:37 AM   #47
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Quote:
Quote:
Yet, detractors refer to them as "Italian made" and "Spaghetti Colts." Funny how these same detractors never mention "Limey Colts" made in London in the 1850s
That's because they were manufactured in London at the COLT factory, that was owned and opened by Sam COLT. They were not manufactured by another company.
Sam Colts BIL ran the European operation. He's reported to have been a drunken fool who skimmed the books. That is why Sam closed up the over seas operation.
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Old October 21, 2011, 01:39 PM   #48
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I will put in a plug for the Colt Dragoon. Feels right to me (5'10", 200 more or less muscular pounds, Size L glove.) With full power loads like firing an N frame .357 with 38s.
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:12 PM   #49
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Thanks Gatafeo,
your info helped me get started and has helped me along the way the last couple of years.
OJW
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Old October 21, 2011, 06:46 PM   #50
Delmar
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dlbarr asked me to elaborate on what damage was done to my brass frame 51 and what I did to fix it.

The first problem I had was that the arbor was loose. (it wiggled) To fix this I first had to get the pin out of the arbor.


I had a machinist friend of mine drill it out and thread it so that I could replace the pin with a set screw. I then turned out the arbor with a screw driver. cleaned it up and applied some lock tight, then turned it back in and installed the set screw.

The next issue was that the raised "ring" on the recoil shield was battered beyond recognition. This allowed the cylinder to move about a 1/16" backward with every shot. A dangerous situation because every shot had the potential to set off all of the caps!


With the arbor out I took my dremel and ground the ring off so that the recoil shield was flat. I then made a new ring out of a steel washer. The ring is just about ready to go in this photo.
I also had to harden the steel ring by heating it red hot with a torch and dropping it in oil. It was suggested that I solder the ring in place, but I found that the cylinder holds it in place just fine. I'm not sure the gun is salable in it's current condition, but it shoots just fine.
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