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Old October 8, 2011, 08:49 PM   #1
wingspan99
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Problem reloading .243 Win

My velocities seem to be too slow for the powder and bullet combo, not coming anywhere near the manual's specs, and this is over the entire range of powder loads, 41gr Varget - 45gr Varget. Bullet is Nosler 55gr Ballistic tip moly in .243. Cases are Hornady, primer is CCI 200 Large Rifle.
41gr Varget yields 3342fps.
43gr Varget yields 3609fps.
45gr Varget yields 3751fps.
With 45gr Varget I should see about 4000fps.
I have not had the chance to group them yet, weather's too foul in CO right now. I suspect that my best groups will come at the lower powder loads like 41 and 42gr, but am I using too cold a primer? Maybe the primer is too cold?
I live at 6100' altitude, but that should not matter. Temp was 43f.
Maybe I should not even worry about the speed, but I was hoping to get it shooting really flat like a 22-250 for coyote hunting.
-Tom in Colorado
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Old October 8, 2011, 09:42 PM   #2
mrawesome22
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How long is your barrel?
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Old October 8, 2011, 11:31 PM   #3
wingspan99
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Barrel is 22" long. Ruger MkII.
Can bullet seating depth impact the velocity by 200fps? These boat-tail 55gr bullets seem to seat about 3/16" into the neck, I wonder if that is enough. The OAL is 2.650" with this bullet. Even if I seat it shallower by 1/16" I am not contacting the lands. I suspect the chamber was made for 100gr bullets.
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Old October 8, 2011, 11:47 PM   #4
mehavey
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QuickLoad would predict you are actually running faster than you have a right to expect:

Cartridge : .243 Win.
Bullet : 55, Nosler BalTip 24055
Cartridge O.A.L. 2.650 inch
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch
Powder : Hodgdon VARGET

Code:
%Fill  Wt(gr)   V(fps)    P(psi)      %Burn
 89     41.0     3,333     43,928      94
 93     43.0     3,485     50,448      96
 97     45.0     3,635     57,904      97
You've already lost ~90-95fps from the 2-inch shorter barrel, though you might pick up another 75fps using RL-17. But you're really not doing too badly now for the cartridge & barrel length.

(Low Temp probably cost you 20-25fps as well -- even if Varget advertises itself as temp-insensitive. Run a mag primer just for the heck of it.)

Last edited by mehavey; October 9, 2011 at 09:23 AM.
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Old October 9, 2011, 12:05 AM   #5
wingspan99
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The Hornady Superformance 58gr ammo supposedly runs at 3945fps and their standard 58gr runs at 3750. Is the extra speed a marketing gimmick on the Superformance? I did indeed see 3746fps on their standard 58gr ammo.
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Old October 9, 2011, 12:38 AM   #6
Jim243
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Quote:
Bullet is Nosler 55gr Ballistic tip moly in .243.
Time to clean your barrel, really well. The moly is adding drag to your load, how much I do not know. With a 1:10 twist rate you should really be using heavier bullets, mine are 85, 95 and 105 grain 243 bullets. I know nothing about the powder you are using, but slower powders like H-4895, IMR or H-4350 will give you a higher pressure curve and push the bullet out faster.

For a 55 grain (non-moly) 243 I would try IMR-8208 for a high speed A$$ kicker. But that is only supposition since I only use IMR-8208 on 55 grain 223 bullets. For 243 my favorite is the Hornady 105 grain A-Max with H-4895 powder, it is more important to me it goes to the same spot each time than that it gets there 1/10,000 of a second faster.

Just my take on the issue.
Jim
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Old October 9, 2011, 08:05 AM   #7
res45
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As you have found very seldom will manual data and real world results match up. Several of the manuals do use specific test weapons to build there data on others just use universal receivers with set barrel lengths.

You also have to take into account,altitude,humidity,barometric pressure and cartridge and surface temps. All these things will have an effect on your MV in your rifle as apposed to the controlled environment or location where the manuals load data was generated at.
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Old October 9, 2011, 09:51 AM   #8
mehavey
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Quote:
Hornady Superformance 58gr ammo supposedly runs at 3945fps...
The key is always surrounds these three facts:

(1) They are using/testing at least a standard-length barrel. That gives them 90-95fps over your 22" barrel at the start.

(2) They have developed these loads in a true pressure-test set-up where they can precisely bump up to the ceiling without going over it.

(3) Hornady in particular is supposedly using a proprietary powder type/composition not available to the general public as yet. One reason (might be that) the mixes are engineered as cartridge/bulletweight-specific)

+1 to Jim243 on bullet placement/precision a being the most critical factor within the range of normally-expected ballistics. I hit three coyotes when I was stationed in New Mexico back in `75-`77. One w/ a Swift/53gr doing 3,750 at the muzzle. The other with my M77V 243/87gr doing 3,200. All three were poleaxed and never new what hit them.

(The antelope didn't complain much with that 87gr'r either)

Last edited by mehavey; October 9, 2011 at 04:36 PM.
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Old October 9, 2011, 10:02 AM   #9
243winxb
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Moly = less Velocity & Pressure

Its a Moly problem http://www.zediker.com/articles/mca.pdf Plus a poor choice of bullet for a 243win. If the base of the bullet leaves the case mouth before the nose of the bullets seals the bore. The results is faster throat erosion from gas cutting.
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Old October 9, 2011, 01:27 PM   #10
mehavey
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Quote:
For a 55 grain (non-moly) 243 I would try IMR-8208 for a high speed A$$ kicker.
Jim243 :I'm told that IMR8208 and ADI AR 2210 are the same powder:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...1&postcount=18

Substituting the AR 2210 numbers in QL for the 243Win/55grNOS indicates it is overly fast even for the 55gr projo.

I noted that IMR's website shows 43gr as max for a 243/55gr/8208/2.650" combo.
QL indicates that to be a 62,250psi load producing 3,708fps from a 22' barrel with 87% case fill.
If I compare what QL thinks VARGET needs to get the same velocity, I get this:
Code:
    POWDER          %Fill   Wt(gr)     P(psi)     V(fps)
IMR8208/AR2210        87     43.00     62,250     3,708
     VARGET          100     46.24     61,300     3,708
For the moment, I'd stick w/ VARGET for both the probable pressure advantage and accuracy-inducing case-fill

If anyone has a cite where Helmut has posted the 8208 specs, please let me know.

Last edited by mehavey; October 9, 2011 at 05:21 PM.
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Old October 9, 2011, 08:12 PM   #11
wingspan99
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Would the moly coating cause a significant drop in performance? I have been cleaning the barrel every 100 shots, is that frequent enough? Where can I get a new barrel for this gun if this one is already gone? Sorry for all these q's but I'm a newbie to reloading. I must say this is really fun, I love loading them. I have 238 acres with prairie dogs and coyotes and antelope. I filled my tag already for antelope, used a 90gr SP, didn't even go out the other side on a chest shot.
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Old October 9, 2011, 08:14 PM   #12
Jim243
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Mehavey

That would make me question the reliability of the Quick Load software?????

Hogdgon certifies that that load of 43 grains of IMR 8208 powder with a 55 grain Nos Bt 243 is 58,600 psi at 3,931 fps. Quite fast and a lot less pressure than Varget.


So hold on to your Varget and I'll keep my IMR 8208 XBR.
Jim


OK, I guess I have to be fair, not that I like it, Hogdgon also lists Varget.

45 grains of Varget with the same bullet is 50,000 CUP (not psi) at a speed of 4,000 fps. A calculated CUP value of 58,600 psi would be 50,463 CUPs.

So six of one and a half dozen of the other.

Jim
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Last edited by Jim243; October 9, 2011 at 08:31 PM.
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Old October 9, 2011, 09:05 PM   #13
mehavey
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Jim, As has been noted previously, opinions vary on QL.

I'll get some 8208 (assuming Clark Bro's has it) and compare chrono readings between it and Varget tomorrow. I'll not try to duplicate the highest velocities (that will take me into the artful auguries of ejector slot brass smears), but will compare QL's predictions between the two over a medium load range.
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Old October 9, 2011, 09:11 PM   #14
wingspan99
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I want to say thank you to everyone that has replied so far, I really appreciate the insight I'm getting from you. I just discovered that I was not crimping properly, the crimping die was set too low and I wasn't getting to the end of the stroke where all the cam action is at. Now I'm getting a 4-way crimp 1/16" tall at the end of the case around the bullet. Would this affect my velocities by much? I think that I will go to larger bullets just to get the better sealing at the barrel lands, the higher mass for shooting in the wind, and the better BC's at the 105gn size.
-Tom in Colorado
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Old October 9, 2011, 09:21 PM   #15
mehavey
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Jim, As has been noted previously, opinions vary on QL.

Two things strike me right away:

- IMR8208's identity as ADI AR 2210 is the going-in assumption until we hear of Helmut's characterizing data being posted

- a 55gr bullet doing 4,000 is well into Swift territory and not something to be assumed lightly

I'll get some 8208 (assuming Clark Bro's has it) and compare chrono readings between it and Varget tomorrow. I'll not try to duplicate the highest velocities (that would take me into the artful auguries of ejector slot brass smears), but will compare QL's predictions between the two over a medium load range.

postscript: If Clark's has a box of the advertised SuperPerf ammunition, I'll get that too.
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Old October 9, 2011, 09:47 PM   #16
wingspan99
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I read the article on moly coatings and got this from it: Moly coatings reduce friction at the case neck and barrel, which lowers chamber pressure which lowers muzzle velocity, so moly bullets require more powder to "load up" to the original pre-moly velocity, whereupon chamber pressures are still lower than original, so more powder can still be added without exceeding safe chamber pressures yet increasing velocity. This MUSTt be how the Superformance ammo is making their +200fps increases happen safely. I noticed the Superformance ammo does use moly bullets.
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Old October 9, 2011, 09:59 PM   #17
mrawesome22
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Wing, did you apply the moly yourself or are you using the Combined Tech bullet?

If using the combined tech bullet, that is "Lubalox", not moly.

And yes, using moly will require a slight increase in powder to achieve the same velocity's as a non-moly bullet.

But that is just what I've read and heard as I will not shoot moly bullets because of the highly debatable pros vs. cons of using it.
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Old October 9, 2011, 10:13 PM   #18
Jim243
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mehavey

Quote:
over a medium load range.
Good idea, even at a grain under max on the 223, I find 8208 a bit hot and primers starting to flatten, so I go 1.2 grains under max and that seem to work for me.

Wingspand, As I see it the problem with Moly bullets is that you get a Moly coating in your barrel and they need to be cleaned really well, I relate it to trying to get traction on a sheet of ice with street shoes, you go slipping and sliding down the barrel. I may be all wet but come winter I am using 4 wheel drive. (LOL)

Good luck and stay safe.
Jim
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Old October 9, 2011, 10:43 PM   #19
wingspan99
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I don't know if it's Lubalox or Moly, there was an M written on the side of the box when I got it and they were already coated, I didn't do it myself, the box part number is 39565, a box of 250 ballistic tips. If I wear the moly coating off the tip is purple.
I just cleaned my barrel, after probably 50 rds of these Lubalox coated bullets there was no blue on the patch, meaning no copper fouling at all. It was dirty and took 5 patches to come clean after the foaming bore cleaner, but I've never seen a barrel have zero copper fouling before. It is a stainless barrel, maybe that has something to do with it?
When I loaded the Varget to 45gn I got 3750fps, can I load to 46gn or 47gn to get to the 3900fps mark with my coated bullets?
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Old October 9, 2011, 10:54 PM   #20
mehavey
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Which brand/type chronograph are you running, Wingspan?
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Old October 9, 2011, 11:22 PM   #21
mrawesome22
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It's up to you whether you go farther than published loads.

Do you know what to look for as far as excessive pressure goes? Hard bolt lift, erratic velocity readings, case head expansion?

If you've never read a reloading manual and can't identify excess pressure, stop where you are at. But my feeling is you haven't because you are at book max and want to take jumps by whole grains at a time

I would only increase the powder charges by .2 grain increments if you do decide to go into uncharted waters.

http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Ballis...p-Varmint.aspx

The Nosler site shows 39565 as non-coated so I don't know what the heck is on your bullets, but I assume it's moly since you said there is a M on there.
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Old October 10, 2011, 08:05 AM   #22
243winxb
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243 Winchester

Moly is not used much now. Berger has stopped coating bullets. Barrels have been sectioned showing rust under the moly. Very hard to remove all Moly from a barrel. You can not change back and forth from plain to moly. Accuracy will be poor with the plain bullets. One load works well for me in many rifles over the years. IMR 4350- 42.0gr-Sierra 85 gr HPBT # 1530-CCI BR2 =-Win. Brass.
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Old October 10, 2011, 12:00 PM   #23
wingspan99
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I use an F-1 Chrony for speed checks. I don't think I'm going to try to boost the speed of these 55gr any higher. Rather I'm going to focus on accuracy and use an 85gr bullet. That's what the barrel was evidently built to chamber.
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Old October 10, 2011, 04:05 PM   #24
mrawesome22
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The problem with factory 243win barrrels is that the throats are mega long to accomodate 100gr RN bullets. This leads to .75" jumps to the rifling when those light, short bullets are used.

I tried every bullet under the sun and 75gr and up bullets are the only thing that give me decent accuracy. But a 75gr vmax at 3300fps does nasty things to g-hogs llet me tell ya lol.
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Old October 10, 2011, 07:31 PM   #25
mehavey
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The thing I hate about this forum is that every once in a while I gotta put my money where my mouth is (e.g., demonstrating the futility of trying to chase advertised velocities, and defending the honor of QuickLoad )

Wingspan was concerned that he wasn't getting full velocity with his 243 loadouts, and I countered "...don't worry about it." Others came at it from a concern that moly did evil things and/or powder manufacturers had to be regarded as the holy bearers of the sacred relics of the true Cross where the latest hot-lick powder was concerned. <big smile>

Case in point: The Hogdon/IMR site lists a 55gr Nosler over 43gr of IMR8208 going out at 3931fps. Being both the eternal skeptic and a fan of QuickLoad, I ran some numbers that said expected velocities should be much lower than advertised. So today I pulled Gertrude (my M77V 243 from back in`73) out of the closet and hied to Clark Bro's who had both some IMR8208 and Nosler 55's

The results are below:



and



The good news/bad news is that the brass showed no pressure signs (I don't know where the knee-in-the-curve is yet.)
The bad news is QuickLoad's velocity pessimism is borne out.
The good news is that groups averaged < 3/4", with one at 1/2", which runs totally counter to
my expereince with most really short bullets sitting waaay off the lands.


postscript: Many thanks to UncleNick who posted the cross-references showing IMR8208-XBR is plain old Aussie ADI AR-2210
See http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handlo...uide/rifle.asp

Last edited by mehavey; October 10, 2011 at 11:16 PM.
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