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Old August 23, 2011, 11:33 AM   #1
Helios
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Backup gun...

How many of you have a backup gun which is the same make, model and carry setup as your primary gun? By primary gun I mean the gun you have trained with, not the gun you shoot every six months at the range for 30 minutes.

For example, I own several pistols but the one I have trained with and will go to when needed is my Glock 20. I have thought about duplicating the setup I have for that gun as a backup. While my other pistols could "get the job done" so to speak, I am certainly not as familiar with them as with the Glock and have not trained with them per say, just fired them at the range occasionally - not to the point I would very be proficient with them as I am with the Glock. So the reasoning is, the gun I am good with, clone it.

Most of the skills transfer to other autoloaders reasonably well but things like grip, draw, trigger press, trigger reset, load and unload, etc. I have all of these "down" on the Glock. They are similar on other pistols but not the same.

I only keep two guns out of the safe day to day, my Mossberg 590 Mariner and the Glock 20. I guess you could say my other guns are "toys", I hate to use the term but I haven't trained with them, though I know how they operate. Perhaps calling them luxuries is a better definition, but I don't have thousands upon thousands of rounds through them with specific training like I do with the Glock and the Mossberg which is why they just stay locked up.

Thoughts?

Last edited by Helios; August 23, 2011 at 12:47 PM.
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Old August 23, 2011, 12:00 PM   #2
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With a Glock I would say - almost any other Glock is has the same MOA and is going to feel the same - it would especially be true of guns in the same caliber family - ie a G17 and G19.

I think you're hitting on the point of having a consistent manual of arms for your SD gun(s).

I am a beleiver in it. The issue of having your BUG be similar to your primary can be an issue - but there are a lot of people who don't consistently carry the same type pistol on a day to day basis anyway. One day it may be a 1911 type pistol, the next day it might be a DAO with a decocker... So the primary is probably not going to match the BUG on any given day, and the people who have a large rotation of guns probably don't think it's an issue anyway.
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Old August 23, 2011, 12:02 PM   #3
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I have 4 handguns, 3 semi's, but still each differant enough to know which is which in the dark. I guess your question is a good one, and 2 glock's would be a good thing. I have one and have handled enough of them to think maybe you could pick up a similar model that would let you think you a duplicate back-up, same but differant.
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Old August 23, 2011, 12:45 PM   #4
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I routinely have a BUG but it is the same caliber as my EDC gun. Specifically, I carry a Kimber 1911 .45 ACP Pro Carry Stainless. My backup is a Kimber Ultra Carry 1911 .45 ACP. I also carry two spare mags so the mags are good for either gun.

The only change to my routine is if I am going to be in an area that is environmentally unfriendly to metal guns and 1911's, i.e. extremely wet and rainy or lots of blowing sand. For these situations I carry a H&K .45 USP Compact and my BUG is a G36. Again, both are the same caliber. Unfortunately they do not use a common magazine but at least I can rob cartridges from one magazine to feed the other. Granted, it would be better to have two guns that can feed from the same magazine but I can say, with confidence, that my H&K has never had a failure of any type so I do not see it as anything but a minor inconvenience.

I train with these four guns all the time and carry each in its respective holster in its respective place all the time.
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Old August 23, 2011, 01:07 PM   #5
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I hear ya (op) I have a variety of handguns. Carry conceiled a S&W 1076 (10 MM) have for many many years Duty gun (LEO) a glock 22, we have to buy our own not issued. I put trigger bar, 3 1/2 lb. connector and comp. springs in and now I love this gun. Have many more autos and not as accurate or should I say I can shoot as accurate as the Glock. and for that reason I am gonna get another holster and carry this gun and only this gun on duty and conceiled off duty. As far as a back up gun do not carry one, every once in awhile I do have my 10 MM in squad car in case if malfunction.
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Old August 23, 2011, 02:17 PM   #6
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I buy doubles of any guns I really like. So a have several doubles .
But the only extra gun I've ever toted was an NAA mini in my coin pocket on occasion.
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Old August 23, 2011, 02:39 PM   #7
Helios
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Well, I don't know if this would be to carry on your person while also carrying your primary, but simply to have. For instance, in your house, something happens, you need the gun but the system cannot be used for some reason. You have a duplicate system which can be used in the primary's place which would replace the primary for that period of time that it was needed.
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Old August 23, 2011, 07:10 PM   #8
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Usually if I pack a revolver I pack a Kel-Tec P32 hidden on the off side.

But when I carry my sub-compact Glocks I usually just carry a spare mag.

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Old August 23, 2011, 11:20 PM   #9
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I don't own doubles of the exact same model (except for a pair of SW Model 10s) but I do own multiple 1911s set up in a similar way which I carry.
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Old August 24, 2011, 04:56 PM   #10
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For concealed carry everyday use in public I carry my main gun and a bug. Main gun is a Glock 30 with a spare g21 mag. My bug is either a Diamondback 380 or my PM9 Kahr.

Main gun is sometimes a Glock 19.
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Old August 25, 2011, 12:50 PM   #11
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I was watching an episode of MidwayUSA’s Best Defense that was aired a while back. One of the experts made a similar recommendation. When carrying a small backup gun he recommended carrying two. I do not remember the specifics but in his example he carried two j-frame revolvers. The theory was that it was quicker to switch between the two guns than it was to waste time reloading etc… I tend to agree with that theory, as well as yours.

Pros:

- Common weapon familiarization and manipulation.
- Interchangeable ammunition/magazines

Cons:

- Weight
- Concealment/bulk

I listed a couple of the most important factors that I know would affect me personally if I were to carrying two of the same handguns in full or compact versions. Carrying two handguns is not easy task. It is doable but not realistic in my case. I think that is the main reason most people carry a small bug as a backup. Ideally though I would prefer to be able to carry two of the same firearm for sure...

P.S. I am not able to carry in IL but I do in other states when/where it is legal and my permits allow me to do so.
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Old August 25, 2011, 01:48 PM   #12
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I agree also on having two of the same guns to swap ammo and being familiar with but a full size auto (16 rounds) I don't think for the most situations you'll need more
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Old August 27, 2011, 05:27 PM   #13
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That you want to stick with one operating system is very commendable. In the real world, you won't be able to think too well. Program good stuff into muscle memory and you actions will probably be correct.

I happen to very much enjoy carrying my Kahr P9 as it is light and flat. It also has a similar MOA to Glocks. Of course, the magazines won't interchange. Both Kahrs and Glock are point-and-shoot. I would also recommend that if you carry a 1911, consider a similar second gun.
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Old August 27, 2011, 07:07 PM   #14
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I think the important thing is to have the same trigger pull and action style. So, for you, multiple Glocks would be perfect.

My carry gun is a S&W BG380, which is double action only, while my home gun is a DA/SA Taurus PT92 with decocker. So, I my PT92 is kept in DA mode. And, I never use the safety, so I can grab any revolver too and expect the same things to happen: grab gun, squeeze trigger, go boom.
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Old August 27, 2011, 07:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
I think the important thing is to have the same trigger pull and action style. So, for you, multiple Glocks would be perfect.
Why? Many thousands of people who have actually gone in harms way--LE and citizens alike-- have, for many decades, carried a primary and a snubbie for their BUG. Some may prefer a small auto for theirs.

Some may simply carry two guns that are essentially two primaries. If they're the same trigger pull and action type, that's fine. Nothing wrong with it.

I know some who carry what could easily be described as two "primary" guns AND a BUG.

What's important is that you can shoot the guns you carry---not that they have the same trigger pull or action style.

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Old August 27, 2011, 08:15 PM   #16
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Why?
Because we are talking about what goes on in the most stressful of situations. One in which there may not be time to figure out:
Do I "grab gun, squeeze trigger, go boom" or do I "grab gun, sweep safety, squeeze trigger, go boom".

What I'm saying is, commit to a Condition, in my case Condition 2. The 1911 guys will be in Condition 1.

If you're sure you won't be confused in the moment of truth, that's great. Me, I want less things to think about.
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Old August 27, 2011, 08:23 PM   #17
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I think the important thing is to have the same trigger pull and action style. So, for you, multiple Glocks would be perfect.
I think there is some validity to this, though I don't strictly adhere to it. I like carrying 1911s in a belt holster. For a pocket gun, my favorite has ben a Sig P238 (it used to be a Colt Mustang). Both have pretty much the same manual of arms.

I will carry a revolver or double action semi-auto without a safety (my recent Kahr CM9). It won't hurt if I swipe down on a non-existent safety and the gun still goes boom when the trigger is pulled. However, you have to be careful about carrying semi-autos where the safeties differ;i.e., down is fire on one and safe on another.
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Old August 28, 2011, 12:55 AM   #18
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I won't ever carry the same backup gun as my primary, but I see no problem with the notion of someone else who chooses to. I also think there is a good chance that I might never buy the same gun twice.
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Old August 28, 2011, 03:03 AM   #19
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"...thought about duplicating..." Hi. If you can't deal with whatever with 15 rounds a second one or another pistol isn't going to help. In any case, the techniques are the same with any hand gun. Breathing, sight picture and trigger control, but you need to adapt to a different handgun. Just like you do when going from an automatic transmission to a standard.
You'd have to find the ammo a second Glock will shoot well too. The chances of both of 'em shooting the same ammo the same way are slim.
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Old August 28, 2011, 06:21 AM   #20
Glenn Dee
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In my little corner of the world....

I dont refer to it as a back-up gun, but just a second gun. It seems that lately a lot of folks carry service sized pistols as their CCW firearm. Thats personal choice. But I dont want my carrying every day to be a chore. So I carry a firearm designed to be hidden, one that hides well. If for some reason I feel the need to have a second gun... It's usually because I expect there may be trouble. At that point I'll strap on a second gun.. usually a service sized pistol or revolver.

For me it's also a matter of tactics. I'm a huge fan of small revolvers with concieled hammer, or hammer shroud. I can easily have a situation coverd with my hand on the gun without anyone knowing. Cops often use this technique. I used it as a cop, and use it today when doing security work. I guess I'm saying that what gun is my primary depends on the tactics. And that what is used for the second gun depends on the situation and tactics. I'm saying this as someone who own's an extensive colle....errr... accumulation of firearms and have a lot of choice.

Most folks own two or three... use what you have.

Glenn D...
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Old August 28, 2011, 07:07 AM   #21
Helios
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Reading some of these drive by responses I can tell than many of you didn't actually read my post and don't understand the idea. Many of you did though and I appreciate the comments, good points to think about.

I'll try and clarify. So whatever your primary gun is, maybe it's your CC gun, your nightstand gun, whatever it is, the gun you have trained with, duplicate that gun and the support equipment for that gun. This does not mean to carry both at the same time, it's a just that, a backup. So for instance, the your primary gun is unusable for whatever reason, you have the entire setup duplicated so that the duplicate can easily transition into the primary.

Some of you are adding some kind of shooting scenario to this, "If ya cain't get'er dun blah blah blah". You've missed the point entirely. This setup would be to simply have so that in the event that your primary gun is unusable you are not at a skills and equipment disadvantage when you replace that gun from your inventory. That is all.
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Old August 28, 2011, 08:05 AM   #22
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I only own 1911s and DA revolvers. I don't have any doubles of exactly the same brand and model but I have multiple 1911s and DA revolvers so the manuals of arms are the same. It keeps things simple when going from my duty gun to off duty, etc.
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Old August 28, 2011, 08:57 AM   #23
Nnobby45
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If you're sure you won't be confused in the moment of truth, that's great. Me, I want less things to think about.
OK, here's the point. It isn't about you and me, and it isn't necessary to re invent the wheel where back up guns are concerned. A primary weapon and a back up snubbie have served many in the real world for many decades.

If carrying a semi-auto as primary and then being forced to transition to the very simple to operate small frame revolver is going to be a tactical complication, then by all means, go with what you consider to be simple.

Good grief, my man, just give it a try. At the range-- try the transistion from one firing system to another and see if it's as complicated as the problem you've created in your head.

Once you've mastered different guns, there isn't anything wrong with utilizing the system you've described. But do it because you prefer it, not because something else is too complicated.

Lastly, while the snubbie is very simple to operate, there is practice and training required to HIT with it. As Ed Lovette points out in his excellent book "Snubby Revolver: ECQ, Backup and Concealed Carry Standard" you should be a serious threat to an 8" X 11" sized target at 7 yds. I'd suggest ten to twelve yds.

Of course, before you get to that point, you need to be a serious threat with your primary farther away than that.

OK, lecture over.

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 28, 2011 at 09:11 AM.
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Old August 28, 2011, 03:28 PM   #24
Glenn Dee
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Helios?


Ummmm I think everyone gave their version of an answer. You specified a back-up gun. Did you mean to ask if anyone had a similar gun in their collection so if the regular carry gun was at the smith, or in police custody you could transition to the second gun? Having already being used to the other one?...

Whats the difference of why you go to the second gun?

OK so I own two Glock 23
two Styer M40
two S&W Model 10
two S&W Model 36
two S&W 640
two old Baretta .380's
two S&W Model 19's
two S&W Model 64's
two 1911's
two Wather PPk's

So... I guess the answer is "YES"

Last edited by Glenn Dee; August 28, 2011 at 03:33 PM.
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Old August 28, 2011, 04:55 PM   #25
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In any case, the techniques are the same with any hand gun. Breathing, sight picture and trigger control, but you need to adapt to a different handgun. Just like you do when going from an automatic transmission to a standard.


Quote:
Good grief, my man, just give it a try. At the range-- try the transistion from one firing system to another and see if it's as complicated as the problem you've created in your head.
At the range and during a life or death struggle are two different animals. I'd bet my life that failing to properly operate a different manual of arms than your primary firearm, has cost folks their lives in the past.

I watched a jeweler in South Florida almost die because he failed to take the safety off his new Walther PPK (twas different than his other gun). My coworker shot a robber in the calf with his 1911 because he reverted back to the double action trigger pull technique he used with his revolver, a gun he carried for a decade. The short light trigger on his 1911 broke before the gun was level causing a low shot*. On his revolver it would have gone off at level.

Its a valid concern and not some made up problem in OUR heads.

*Thankfully the robber dropped both the loot and the gun and ran like a jack rabbit.
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