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Old November 4, 2011, 03:32 PM   #126
MLeake
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farmerboy, that's not all you've stated. You've also insulted those who suggest that in most cases, a firearm is unnecessary.

I've dealt with pit bulls, boxers, rotts, dobermans, shepherds... even a mastiff. So far, I have not needed a stick, let alone a gun. Interpersonal/intercanine skills are very good for either assuming the alpha role, or for just making friends, with people or dogs.

One of these days, you might even learn that.

I can't imagine you'd suggest the first thing to do, to control an ornery cow or hog on a farm, would be to shoot it. I doubt you'd be thrilled with somebody shooting your charging bull; you'd probably have other methods available for controlling it, or at least evading it.

So, either you haven't applied lessons learned from the farm (my in-laws are farmers), or else you just like to bluster.
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Old November 4, 2011, 03:34 PM   #127
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brickeyee, define "attack."

Some people think a dog approaching, wagging tail and head up, is preparing to attack.

Some people think black teenagers are threatening, because they are black teenagers.

Personally, I think you should be able to articulate exactly what behavior you found threatening, be it by a dog or a human. Some forum members here seem to have very low thresholds. (I don't mean you, brickeyee, as I assume you can elaborate on what you mean by "attack.")
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Old November 4, 2011, 03:37 PM   #128
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If my pitbull was charging you or anyone else, if you didnt shoot it. I Would!!!! I think we all need to get in a circle hold hands and sing "Kum Ba Yah:!
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Old November 4, 2011, 03:41 PM   #129
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And there you go again, farmerboy.

Tell you what, I'm in Afghanistan. Why don't you come over here and sing kumbaya? Or teach me the words, since you seem to know them...

Assumptions can backfire.
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Old November 4, 2011, 04:28 PM   #130
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I'm in Afghanistan
I sure hoipe you come back here in one piece sir. My nephew spent some time over there, was rough on him.

I try not to shoot dogs, but them cats, well they are a bad item and dont get the free pass.

Owners need to be responsible for their pets and take cqare they dont get out. Mine have, two went to a neighbors place and tore up a rabbit hutch and killed a rabbit. He comes up and tells me he had a bead on her but couldnt pull the trigger even after she killed the rabbit. I asked him whats the cost for the coney he said 50.00 so I paid him the cash and got a in ground electric fence.
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Old November 4, 2011, 09:46 PM   #131
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would you shoot a dog to protect other dogs or another dog?
If you do, depending upon your jurisdiction, be prepared to spend big bucks on legal assistance. In California dogs are property, not family. Lethal force to protect property is a no-no.
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Old November 4, 2011, 09:52 PM   #132
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MLeak wrote:

Quote:
I've dealt with pit bulls, boxers, rotts, dobermans, shepherds... even a mastiff. So far, I have not needed a stick, let alone a gun. Interpersonal/intercanine skills are very good for either assuming the alpha role, or for just making friends, with people or dogs.
I'm thinking not all dogs, nor all people, come from the same mold. Some folks do not have the interpersonal/intercanine skills you have, nor the combative skills, nor even the physical abilities you have.

I'm thinking perhaps each person does the best they can and hopes for the best outcome.

I forget how "Kum Ba Yah" goes ... can you hum a few bars ?
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Old November 4, 2011, 10:37 PM   #133
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Hook686, kumbaya is farmerboy's thing, not mine.

Meanwhile, there are lots of elderly people who deal with strange dogs every day, yet don't shoot them.

My grandmother was terrified of dogs, yet she never shot one, nor threw a rock at one. She might yell if one approached, but she would do so while stepping toward it, not showing a "prey" reaction, and that always did the trick.

My point is not that an attacking dog should be coddled. My point is that the vast majority of dogs that approach are not actually attacking, and that a distinction should be made between an approaching dog vs an attacking one.

Like I have said, I don't have issue with people who react from reasonable fear; but I have a big issue with people who react from irrational fear, or who simply kill something because they figure they can.

From your prior posts, I don't think you are irrational, or a blow-hard. So, I would think you'd understand my position.

Now, does one's physical condition or skill-set affect one's options, in whatever case one perceives? Yes, of course.

But you are the same, somewhat disabled 60-something gentleman whether the creature approaching you is an unknown dog or a panhandler. Are you going to tell me you'd shoot the panhandler without an articulable reason why you felt he was threatening you, aside from the fact that he was approaching and you are older and less physically capable? Of course not. The same rationale should apply with the dog, at least to an extent.

And if the dog really was attacking, then I have no issue with use of a firearm - aside from potential threat to the neighborhood from stray bullets. (I generally do not think a gun is an optimal anti-dog weapon in a wide variety of circumstances; they move fast and are hard to hit, which also means they are easy to miss.)
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Old November 4, 2011, 11:03 PM   #134
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"If you do, depending upon your jurisdiction, be prepared to spend big bucks on legal assistance. In California dogs are property, not family. Lethal force to protect property is a no-no." Quote by Hook686

This is extremely interesting, in such a situation even though the state would consider my dog property, I would not let another dog attack and kill it and I would still kill the attacking dog after it drew first blood.

The owner could sue me and I would counter sue, as all I killed was property , and his dog initiated the attack which also injured my dog or property and if his property or dog had not initiated the attack neither dog or property would have been injured or killed.

Good old legal system, I quess it keeps us from killing each other, but things were much simpler in Nam in the Mountains of the Central Highlands where there were no civilians and only professional soldiers killing each other, which was bad enough.
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Old November 4, 2011, 11:06 PM   #135
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PH/CIB, the problem wouldn't be as much about the dog, as the possible charges of discharge of a firearm within city limits, etc.

So yes, you might face criminal charges.

That said, I'd defend my dog. I might try physical force, first (kick the attacker, hit it with stick, etc); if that didn't work, and now I'm in a dog fight, I suspect I'd shoot the attacker - and be able at that point to claim self-defense.
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Old November 4, 2011, 11:17 PM   #136
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MLeake, Thank You! and your Military Family, for your service to our Country, may you come home safely!

Some of the Animal Vets on the forum can weigh in on this whether true or not, but in the case of lethal force against an attacking dog, I have heard the rabies series of shots are extensive and very painful, I have also have heard that the only way to tell if a dog has rabies is to examine it's brain under a microscope which means dead dog.

I would probably not kill a dog until it viciously had bitten myself or someone else or my dog, but once bitten now the rabies shots and test on the dog are probably mandantory and it is too late to escape that reality.
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Old November 4, 2011, 11:23 PM   #137
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PH/CIB, the people who worry me are the ones such as one TFL member who posted that he had considered Macing dogs that lived on a property he often jogged past, who were inside their own fence. He was afraid they might try to come over the fence at him, so he was considering preemptively spraying them while they were still behind the fence.

Or other TFL members who say, "they are only dogs, I am not going to find out if they really mean to attack."

Or other TFL members who say, "responsible pet owners don't let their dogs run loose; their tough luck."

Tell ya what, my Catahoula got out of my parents' yard, when they were keeping him for me. Neighbor saw how he did it... He put his back against their Japanese plum tree, his paws on the chain-link fence, and he chimneyed out like a rock climber.

Was I irresponsible for leaving my dog with my parents while I was stationed in Hawaii (dog had epilepsy, and I did not want to quarantine him)?

Were my parents irresponsible for thinking their 6ft fence would contain my dog?

Was I very happy that the people who found my dog didn't shoot him because he approached them?

Edit: My parents had the tree taken down, shortly after this happened, and did not leave the dog outside unsupervised until the tree had been removed.
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Old November 4, 2011, 11:58 PM   #138
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my dog used to steal skins that I could hang in the garage: foxtails, you name it. I was looking both ways some mrngs(joking) making sure he hadn't been made

I didn't know where they were coming from, but I was nervous he was gonna get smashed my a pickup or hit with a "stray" bullet one night. It beat him and his buddies using my extension gutters as combat practice.
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Old November 5, 2011, 12:00 AM   #139
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If you do, depending upon your jurisdiction, be prepared to spend big bucks on legal assistance. In California dogs are property, not family. Lethal force to protect property is a no-no.
I don't live in CA but I don't doubt you as far as Cali is concerned. That being said, I will defend my dog's life with force.
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Old November 5, 2011, 12:46 AM   #140
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Mleake seems to see the exact same problems I do. Some have offered far more "stupid" solutions than what farmerboy thinks that I and others have offered.

To defend your life, when you are in fear of it, with lethal force. I understand this, but I'm not afraid of dogs. That simple.
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Old November 5, 2011, 01:25 AM   #141
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I'm an animal lover. I love dogs And cats. you guys realize some people hate cats and some hate dogs, right? TFLs will be quick to admit they shoot cats, but you'll never hear about the dude who got his sox off dispatching a canine.

that is the guy I was worried about who had his skins disappearing in the mrngs. granted, he would've had more reason to send butterscoth (AKA Butts) to the afterlife. Butts got some towels, panties, shoes, bike helmets, dolls. Puppies teeth

they are scumbags out there who will kill a dog for no reason though or hit them with their vehicle.
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Old November 5, 2011, 01:43 AM   #142
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I have also have heard that the only way to tell if a dog has rabies is to examine it's brain under a microscope which means dead dog.
I hate this thread and yet I cannot stay away from it. As a Vet Tech for 15 years I can say that yes, the only way to test for rabies is to examine the brain cells. I also can't believe this thread has not been locked yet.

Too many uncivilized, animal killing monsters in here.
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Old November 5, 2011, 02:39 AM   #143
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http://www.wgal.com/r/29669368/detail.html

I guess she didn't know the pyschic defense...in all honesty the hand thing probably works sometimes
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Old November 5, 2011, 03:57 AM   #144
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Nocturnis31, I do agree with you. But, I have yet to see a reason to lock this thread. It's lasted longer than most on this subject. I'd like to think that it's because those of us who feel a life is worth something no matter what have stood their ground, for good reason. There is a logical aspect to both arguments, in some way. But again, people are just too quick to shoot things, period. As I said in an earlier post, "I may be wrong here, so forgive me if I am, but the reason people carry concealed legally is not for killing, it's for defending. I feel like too many people fail to understand this concept." This wasn't directed at PH/CIB, it was directed at those who on this forum make me feel uncomfortable with their intent to kill the unjust, animals or not. I make an effort to equalize man and beast to see whether my fellow TFL members will show enough responsibility over any life, not just their own. So far, I'm questioning the resolve of some.

My best friend on this earth was a Wolf, he was the only friend I could trust. He belonged to my ex, who I trusted LESS. When he died, I shed tears, and I'm not afraid to admit that. I've worked for a dog groomers. I've assisted at a Veterinarians. I've actually picked up and held a Fox showing multiple symptoms of Rabies, knowing it was on its final breaths, and moved it to a clear area. In frustration, I realized the only thing I could do was put it out of its misery, and I did as such. A beautiful animal, gone. Maybe I'm just insane, but every life means something.
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Old November 5, 2011, 06:54 AM   #145
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I live in the country....

I was in the kitchen and I heard this noise in my garage - the garage door was open about a foot so my cats could come and go. I went in the garage and there were two dogs big dogs chasing my poor cat. The cat was under the car with the two dogs were running around the car trying to get the cat....

I ran inside and grabbed my airsoft battery powered AR that we keep by the door to usually shoo away the pesky animals that come up on our deck, feral cats, etc. All sorts of creatures make my cats lives miserable sometimes.

I unloaded on those dogs, full auto - 6mm plastic bbs hitting them in the ass. Yes - I am sure it stung and they ran like the wind. I was SO upset...I chased them down our road shooting at them till they were off my property.

What really concerned me is that I didn't recognize either dog. I know all my neighbors within a mile or more of my house and I have never seen those dogs.

It's one thing to have dogs running around without a leash [stupid] and another thing when the wind up in your garage. I was so mad....

Unleashed country dogs can pack up at night. I recall some friends of ours whom we got puppies from years ago. They had a big German Shepard that was apparently packing up with other farm dogs at night and killing live stock. The county sheriff came out and shot that dog. That was in the 1960s where "country justice" was pretty swift back in the day....

Regardless of these stories - dogs shouldn't be roaming around neighborhoods. Generally dogs that are just loping around being friendly and lost are one thing - but you never know - especially country dogs.

We have had instances of blue eyed coydogs in our county also - one got shot about 2 years ago by some farmer.
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Old November 5, 2011, 02:42 PM   #146
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After all this talk is over, i like animals just as much as some of you BUT i still stand firm and believe "if a raging coyote or a mans pitt is coming at me, even if it's just growling when it's coming. I don't care and the owner is standing there. I'm fixing to drop that dog right there. I'd do it here I'n Texas and I'd do it anywhere if traveling. " i don't care care if I'm the only one who believes this way but i still do and won't change. Maybe it's true, maybe we handle things different down on the farm, maybe i am a redneck as some have stated. But I'n my yard or yours, your dog attempting to harm me is fixing to go to puppy Heaven. Please if this ever does happen, please don't do something stupid and be next! Would like to talk more but got to go clean my gun.
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Old November 5, 2011, 03:45 PM   #147
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There seems to be two schools of thought here and neither one is wrong, we are all products of our life experiences and what is right for you is right for you no matter what anyone else thinks.

There also seems to be a difference between city folks and country folks, I have lived both places and one thing city folks do not experience as much, with animal control officers, is dumped pets. People dump pets dogs and cats and others in the country all the time, why they do not take them to a no kill shelter, I do not know.

This is one of the most cruel things you can do to a pet, domestic dogs and cats will be killed by coyotes or bobcats or puma or black bears, or will starve to death or freeze to death etc...Very few will survive, those that do survive will be killing and eating wild game or domestic livestock, and farmers and ranchers have the right to protect their means of making a living, how would you like it if a dog or cat caused you a monetary loss in your job or occupation, lost money is one thing but if you are operating on a thin margin, it can even take your business under. I hunt and fish and besides Thanking the Department of Natural Resources I also Thank the farmers and try to pay them something or give them some wild game for the priviledge of hunting and fishing on their farms as farmers and ranchers lose a lot of crops to wild game. Besides feeding all of us they also feed many of God's creatures.

Also living in the country, animal control if there is any, and law enforcement might be hours away, you sometimes have to do everything yourself. Also most country folks hunt and fish and also harvest as in kill and eat their own livestock, beef, hogs, chickens, sheep etc...If this seems barbaric to you and you eat meat visit the kill floor of a packing plant to see what you pay for.

Lastly I do worry about a small percentage of people legally carrying guns who might be too trigger happy and/or have unsafe gun handling traits. However I equally worry about the folks legally carrying firearms who have not come to the realization or mental decision that in order to save their life or someone else's life that they might have to take the life of another human being.

Combat, or self defense, whether civilian or military is the most error prone of environments.

Life and Death decisions made in split seconds under severe stress or duress.

I still commend them for carrying concealed, sometimes just showing a firearm will cause a threat to disarm or run away, and there is a good chance that they will carry concealed for a lifetime and never have to fire their handgun in self defence.

My nightmare is if they ever come up against a violent man who is determined to kill them, for in that split second of Life and Death, there is no time for philosophy, no time for rationalization, no time for feelings, and only time to react. And for those of you who have come to that realization,,, and you pull the trigger, possibly,,,

You still will be here.

And for those of you who have not come to that realization,,, and who hesitate and/or do not pull the trigger,,,possibly,,,

You will be dead.
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Old November 6, 2011, 02:52 AM   #148
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Hook and post #129

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/man-fa...-home-r/nFXCJ/

Too bad this robber thought he wouldn't be shot over some property, but you can't blame the shooter if the copper thug was being an idiot and escalated the situation.
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Old November 19, 2011, 11:15 AM   #149
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I have had to shoot several dogs thru the years people dump dogs thinking their dogs will be happy living on a ranch because they don't want any more.it'a a sad situation.,
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Old November 19, 2011, 03:42 PM   #150
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I must've missed something...I could have sworn there were more posts.
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