The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 23, 2011, 06:11 PM   #101
Indi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2011
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 214
@ Alaska,
Im sure that was a frightening experience, and yes dogs (all dogs should be controled with more than a whistle) I guess your seeing more pitbulls because they are just plain and simple great companion dogs. I would recomened that you get your wife some strong pepper spray/ bear repelent. I have bought some for my wife, shes a little woman who doesnt care much for guns, and scared of anything four legged or no legged...lol, bless her big heart. Im not trying to get you to like pitbulls but i've had two. One which lived to be 14 yrs old, and another i have right now which is 5. In my 19 years with my pitts and other peoples pitts i have never been bit, or seen anyone get bit. But i have a huge fear of german shepards and dobermans, lol not because they are bad dogs, but the only few that have bit me..lol.
Indi is offline  
Old October 23, 2011, 06:30 PM   #102
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
It's funny, but where I grew up in suburban Maine, leash laws were frequently ignored, but attacks on humans were very rare.

Then again, restrictions on kids seemed to be a lot less, but misbehavior by kids wasn't as common, either.

Seems to me that both issues are more symptomatic of how people don't put in the time they should, with dogs or children, because other things have somehow taken priority.

Edit: My point being, I sometimes get the feeling that society tries to legislate and regulate because people in general have lost their sense of individual responsibility, and we see the results in our kids and our pets.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 23, 2011, 06:35 PM   #103
Indi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2011
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 214
@ MLeake Yeah well back in the day you didnt have "desperate house wives, american idol, and jersy shore"....lol. Just kiddin, but your rite. Im originally from Chicago, and once my daughter was born i had to get outta that place. i lived there 30 years, for the last five of those years we had a bunch of kids that roamed the neighborhood day and night they were around 8-10 when they first moved into the neighborhood, in those 5 years i never saw there parents, not once, and they lived next door.
Indi is offline  
Old October 23, 2011, 08:00 PM   #104
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
There are no leash laws where we live. Amazingly, for years and years there have been leash laws where I grew up, but when I lived there as a child and young man there were no leash laws yet.

We do have some kind of law about one month a yr on one side of the river and the other half of the county on the other side of the river has a different month where the dogs are supposed to be fenced. I believe this has to do with dogs being in heat. the laws are pretty much ignored I think. We have neighborhood packs that the most trouble they seem to get in is all barking at the same time as you leave someone's driveway...this causes you to drive slow so you don't hit the dog even though they seem to know how to avoid you anyways. There all real good buddies. I personally like how there is no leash law here, but it can cause issues with loose dogs. After hunting season, we see some strays and hungry dogs roaming around, and I almost hit one once but swerved in time.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old October 23, 2011, 08:13 PM   #105
vytoland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 23, 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 613
after an attacking dog is dispatched, find the owner and place him/her on a judas cradle.
vytoland is offline  
Old October 30, 2011, 12:08 PM   #106
PH/CIB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 281
This thread is interesting especially folks taking bugs out of the house and showing a reverance for all life.

However they must believe in killing at some point or would not be carrying a firearm concealed and willing to use it in self defense or be on this forum.

If you would not kill and are a meat eater you are a hypocrite, you pay someone else to do your killing for you and then put down people who have the courage to do their own killing, if you want an example of what you pay for just visit the kill floor of a packing plant, and yes I eat meat.

If you are a vegetarian I have nothing but respect for you, but I suspect in self defense or if you were starving to death, that you would kill, which tells me when the chips are down you are no different than the rest of us.

I love nature, and God's beautiful world, but it has a dark side, everything out there is killing everything else, the meat eaters killing other animals, the plant eaters killing plants, even the plants in their competition for nutrients from the soil and sunlight killing other plants. I wish it were different and nothing had to kill anything else but that is the world we live in.

I respect all life and I hunt and fish and have family who farm and ranch and anyone who feeds a hungry world is a hero, I do not believe in wanton killing, but a dog that bites me or my wife or my dog or a friend or family or anyone in my presence is going to be put down.
__________________
Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net
PH/CIB is offline  
Old October 30, 2011, 01:47 PM   #107
federali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2011
Location: Nassau County NY
Posts: 378
An Overlooked but Very Important Point

While a federal agent, we were preparing a multi-agency, multi-site raid against Asian drug, gambling, money laundering and indentured servant (modern slavery) operations. We knew that trained pitbulls were at several locations. During the raid briefing, an agent posed a very intelligent question: If a person at the raid site threatens you with his dog or gives the dog what appears to be an order to attack, do we shoot the dog or its controller?

The thought was, a weapon is a weapon, be it a 9mm or an attack dog. So, not knowing the answer, we ran it by the United States Attorney's Office for legal advice (all raids are conducted in conjunction with the U.S. Attorney's Office as it is they who secure the search and arrest warrants) Their advice was, if a person is attempting to use a dog on command as a deadly weapon, we were to shoot the dog, not it's owner or controller.

I'm not a criminal lawyer and therefore not qualified to debate the issue. But, I know that if I find myself in that position of being threatened by a dog acting under command, I know what the safer course of action is. Incidentally, the raid went smoothly. Shots fired at one location didn't involve four-legged animals and animal handlers prevented any need to use deadly force against dogs.
__________________
Int'l Assoc. of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors
federali is offline  
Old October 30, 2011, 04:43 PM   #108
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,964
federali

In response to your point, I would add that this is not just a legal issue, but a tactical one as well. An attacking dog will not depend on continuing commands from a handler to sustain an attack; rather, s/he can most reasonably be expected to continue the attack even if you incapacitate the person who ordered an attack, and in many cases the dog will initiate an attack without a command based on its own perception of risk to its handler. Therefore, from the standpoint of ending the most immediate threat, the attacking dog has to be taken down before the handler is addressed.
TailGator is offline  
Old October 30, 2011, 06:08 PM   #109
ripnbst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 1,385
Where I live stray dogs are somewhat common and I can say from experience that for a pit you'd be wise to carry the largest caliber you can. I have personally seen a pit shot at about point blank range with a .22LR, out of a rifle, and the rounds were skipping off his skull. These rounds were not shot from a low angle of incidence either.

This was a big intact male, these dogs can be most closely compared to a 2 legged threat on PCP. Do your self a favor and go for the chest area, much more soft tissue and the vitals. Their skulls are thick.
ripnbst is offline  
Old October 30, 2011, 09:23 PM   #110
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by PH/CIB
However they must believe in killing at some point or would not be carrying a firearm concealed and willing to use it in self defense or be on this forum.
I may be wrong here, so forgive me if I am, but the reason people carry concealed legally is not for killing, it's for defending. I feel like too many people fail to understand this concept.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old October 30, 2011, 10:53 PM   #111
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
Quote:
BlackFeather

Quote:
Originally Posted by PH/CIB
However they must believe in killing at some point or would not be carrying a firearm concealed and willing to use it in self defense or be on this forum.
I may be wrong here, so forgive me if I am, but the reason people carry concealed legally is not for killing, it's for defending. I feel like too many people fail to understand this concept.
Blackfeather I believe you are correct in pointing out we carry a handgun to incapacitate/stop the threat, not to kill the threat. However, using a firearm is use of deadly force which is likely to result in the death of the threat.

Therefore, it is valid for PH/CIB to conclude that a person who carries a concealed handgun for defense, is willing to use it in defense, is willing to kill; even though that is not the purpose but a likely outcome started by the threat.

This may be a case of showing a distinction without a difference (other than the legal ramifications).

As to animal threats, I hope that my 10mm auto will do the job if I place the shots should the need arise.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old October 30, 2011, 11:01 PM   #112
riggins_83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2009
Location: Wherever I may roam
Posts: 1,481
I was charged by a stray Doberman a couple years ago at night while going for a walk. I was talking to my wife on the phone and said "**** hang on call you back." The parking lot was huge and the dog was a long ways away (about 250'). I drew what I was carrying at the time (An XD9 I believe) and was about to fire when the dog veered away into the woods. Apparently a human target not showing fear doesn't seem as tasty.

The second time I never saw my target. Was out walking in the woods on a dead silent night. We've had some Bobcat/Cougar issues so I'm always cautious. Heard something crack ground level, I spun around and drew, waiting for eyes to appear. Nothing ever emerged...

People ask why I carry a Glock 30 and why I feel the need to carry 10 rounds of 45. Far as I'm concerned a Glock 30 isn't that much harder to conceal IWB than a similar size (but thinner) 9/40/357. I'd more concerned about stray dogs.
__________________
l've heard police work is dangerous. Yes, that's why l carry a big gun. Couldn't it go off accidentally? l used to have that problem. What did you do about it?
l just think about baseball. -Leslie Nielsen
riggins_83 is offline  
Old November 2, 2011, 12:13 AM   #113
TXGunNut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: If you have to ask...
Posts: 2,851
Sad night tonight, had to haul off a good-looking yellow pit. Damn near took him apart with three loads of 00B.
Got home late, turned out the house dog (Min Pin) and he immediately went on alert. Popped the trunk on my car (WW 1300 12 ga inside) and we both confronted a 60-70# pit that would not back down. Fatal genetic flaw. Redneck neighbor raises them, they often get out. This is the second I've killed this year. Had to air up a pickup tire, haul him off, wash off the tailgate and prewash treat the clothes I was wearing before doing a load of laundry. I usually bag & drag but it was dark and I couldn't find the garbage bags in my pickup's toolbox.
Kinda upsets me when folks dump unwanted dogs near my spot in the prairie, royally ticks me off when some redneck buys a place "in the country" and decides it's cool to raise aggressive dogs. Pits are awesome dogs. They just want to please, like any other dog. Should probably dump the next one on his porch but that would not be a good idea.
__________________
Life Member NRA, TSRA
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove
My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.
TXGunNut is offline  
Old November 2, 2011, 02:41 PM   #114
Tiny ChickenFoot
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2011
Posts: 10
A few years ago I came out of the woods from a run and as I walked up the street a 70lb plus Doberman came flying out at me with an idiot woman sceaming for him to stop. With her right behind my line of sight I chose not to kill the thing in front of the presumed owner. As he lunged at me, I stepped back and kicked up into his throat so not to break his jaw but making it tough to breath and throwing him into the air. The thing landed about 10 or 12' past me in a pile, started to get up and thought better of it.

I told the woman that my little girl walks the street with me occasionaly and if that dog ever steps foot off the property towards me or someone else, I'd kill him.

Next day I reported the incident to the Chief of Police in town and he concurred that whatever was needed to protect life and property was ok with him. I suggested that he speak to the woman and the dog was gone shortly after.

Most dogs aren't over 100lbs and I generally ran the woods with a stainless .380 for 2 legged protection which is plenty close in for most 4 legged critters.
Tiny ChickenFoot is offline  
Old November 2, 2011, 02:56 PM   #115
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
would you shoot a dog to protect other dogs or another dog?

you just brought back some memories with your vocalization towards this woman.

we need to remember that our pets are family members many times(I'm on your side here...just bare with me on this post).

we had a neighborhood of friendly dogs growing up. yeah, stuff happened like the one mutt who liked to jump in this one lady's pool and he ripped the lining with his claws but that's another war story...

sometimes a rogue dog finds its way into the mix of friendly neighborhood ragamuffins

This hasn't happened yet in our neighborhood, but it happened multiple times growing up(see my last post - there was no leash law and most dogs roamed). This one dog named Ramsey just would go ballistic on nice dogs just wagging their tail, eating their stick, or whatever. Usually these dogs were the same size too. I saw many dogs come home all shaved, beat to a pulp, basically wondering if any of the humans were gonna do anything about this problem or continue to let the whole pack be victimized.

Well, the "DR" told him straight out after Dusty saw the light and somehow made it back(I witnessed that one and others as well): "If that dog ever steps foot on my property again it is as good as dead."(other vocabulary was used as he was upset. the other guy never listened to anyone...he was mad someone called the pound after two other warnings on another incident. Well anyways, Ramsey went to see his maker because it turned out even a lanky, friendly doctor in the populated suburbs of an anti-state didn't hesitate to break out the shotgun for some dog justice. It was the owner's fault, and really Ramsey had to go because he was definately a killer. He was a mix of a lab, doberman, and something else but that dog was pretty dangerous. I saw it in action. It would growl, the other dog would be confused and sort of freeze(stop what he/she was doing with the ball or whatnot), and then it would attack and refuse to stop even when others tried to stop him. The dog looked friendly - almost like a golden retriever or lab but not if you know what I mean

SOMETIMES we need to defend our dogs/family members with a weapon too. I know I wouldn't want to dispatch another dog if my life isn't in jeopardy, but my dog deserves protection too and I would do it in a heartbeat.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old November 2, 2011, 03:24 PM   #116
Tiny ChickenFoot
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2011
Posts: 10
Just a couple of weeks ago I was explaining to my now 17 year old daughter how nice it was to have friendly neighborhood dogs around. I grew up in the same times when rural dogs hung out and occasionally scrapped over turf, bones the local hot bitch etc.

I love dogs, have had them since I was a kid and have broken up more than a few regular dog fights over the years. Then and now it never occured to me that I should shoot either of them. As a kid my own Chow-Husky-Shephard mix killed one of the neighbor cows and my dad had to pay a few hundred in restitution. There are a few qualifiers that make a difference in my mind and the local Chiefs:
1. On public property
2. Owner unable or unwilling to control them
3. A dangerous dog that will attack people (away from their own home)
4. Repeat staulking offenders

Am a little older and slower now, maybe less tolarant and prefer a .45 to my foot.
Tiny ChickenFoot is offline  
Old November 2, 2011, 03:56 PM   #117
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
Quote:
I grew up in the same times when rural dogs hung out and occasionally scrapped over turf, bones the local hot bitch etc.
I was literally laughing out loud with that one. Yeah, the bones is a big thing around here that wasn't as big of a thing growing up(most definately because there were less bones where I grew up). Every dead animal's bones around here makes its way onto someone's lawn. If you get a dog around here, you will meet every other dog in some form or another too(especially if your dog is a female). As soon as you think you have another 'adopted' family member hanging outside, he gets bored and checks out of the hotel and visits somewhere else in the neighborhood.
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old November 4, 2011, 05:54 AM   #118
federali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2011
Location: Nassau County NY
Posts: 378
For what it's worth

I was once told by an LEO dog handler that you can often stop a dog attack (single dog) by spreading your arms, holding one hand high and the other, low (sort of like those WWII flag guys guiding planes onto carrier decks) and confronting the dog head-on. This confuses the dog in that he doesn't know which hand to focus on and also makes you appear to be a much larger opponent. Of course, if circumstances warrant, I'd have my 9mm in one hand in case the tactic doesn't work.

If you succeed in thwarting an attack, you should still notify the police as this dog will probably attack somone else.
__________________
Int'l Assoc. of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors
federali is offline  
Old November 4, 2011, 08:17 AM   #119
Tangentabacus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2010
Location: Alaska
Posts: 256
Where I live in Alaska there are no cops. Only state police that can take up to two hours to respond sometimes. So in a more residential area you really have to make the ultimate call. In the smaller towns and cities, however I'd imagine people deal with the four legged threat more often than other places in the states mainly due to the fact that untamed animals even in Anchorage aren't uncommon. So for me the question of "if" is really tough. There isn't any authority that can help you feel good about your decision by saying "It's okay". And me as a dog lover and owner it'd be really really tough for me to kill a dog. If I had to I would, but I'd rather go run for a shovel or hefty stick first.

However I have one four legged story, though not quite a dog. About a year ago I had been in the back yard raking the lawn when I heard a scuffle from my dog. Turned out it was a coyote. It came back every night to raise hell with our family's outside dog. She was a German Shepherd and Husky mix. After seeing that every morning she'd have new cuts and nicks on her I decided to ready my AK47 clone and have a little stake out in the back yard. Sure enough that coyote came back but this time brought some support. I ran over to the scene where both coyotes had my dog pinned to the ground with their teeth in her neck. I shouldered my rifle and made a rustle by kicking some gravel and yelling at them which was enough to make one pull off and take off at me. I put 6 rounds (first few shots missed but about 15 fired) into that coyote before it stopped. The second coyote took off like lightening.

To end this story: my dog's jaw was broken as well as a leg. This also came with a few very good puncture wounds and some decent lacerations to her rear quarters. If I wouldn't have dispatched that coyote I would have had a dead pet. Which to me would have been a dead family member. While I would have much rather beat one in the butt to scare it off... I'm afraid they were mission orientated and were not leaving till they killed my dog. So I had to make that split second call to either go get something to scare them off or to rid a pest and potential murderer of a family member. Either one with it's risks and chances.

All that to say that experience was a learning experience and if I was thinking properly I would have equipped myself with a decent thwacking tool and a firearm as a last resort.
Tangentabacus is offline  
Old November 4, 2011, 01:06 PM   #120
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
Federali while you're sitting there making hand signals to the attacking dog/s I'm gonna be tearing his butt up with a 40 cal. Haha. Some of these reads are just funny
farmerboy is offline  
Old November 4, 2011, 02:38 PM   #121
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
farmerboy, maybe you haven't noticed, but sometimes having interpersonal skills can help deescalate situations. It's commonly thought that one should be able to do many things before having to draw a weapon. So, how is it funny that someone would try the same thing with a dog?

Let's switch places, a dog decides to use your lawn as it's personal Jade toilet. You get upset, and walk out with a gun. His owner sees this, and decides you're a threat. Unfortunately he thinks the whole "interpersonal skills" idea is laughable, so he just shoots you to defend his dog.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old November 4, 2011, 03:14 PM   #122
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
Ok first I'll say what if it really did work out in my situation with a charging pit bull and I didnt have to shoot and kill him this time, Great!!!! but what if the next day your 5 year old grandaughter came down the road and she didnt know of these Special Skills that you posess? And she wasnt so lucky... Some people and some animals should just be taken clean out of the gene pool right away. Or better yet maybe we can start releasing so many maximum security inmates from prison and letting YOU getting them lined out and being a productable person in society. And earlier in that post, I said "funny" I meant to say so many or just plain Stupid!
farmerboy is offline  
Old November 4, 2011, 03:21 PM   #123
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
farmerboy, while I won't go so far as to say I'd shoot somebody for threatening my dog (as suggested by Black Feather, theoretically), I will say that if one of my dogs got loose, and some yahoo decided to use one as arbitrary target practice, that person would have a very bad near future.

Depending on circumstances, and how the person reacted, that could range from legal and financial problems (how hard do you think it would be to come up with causes for lawsuits against some ignorant, loud-mouthed redneck?) to other problems.

Now, when I say "arbitrary target practice," I am referring to some idiot who thinks "well, it's on or approaching my property, I can just shoot it because I want to." This is as opposed to somebody who actually felt threatened, or who witnessed dogs running his livestock, etc.

If my dog were near me, and a weapon were drawn, I might just think the person was threatening me... and I, too, am armed. As Black Feather said, in such a case, one would hope the humans involved would have some interpersonal skills. But, interpersonal skills failing, I am an above average shot.
MLeake is offline  
Old November 4, 2011, 03:27 PM   #124
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
Leake, I now state that if "a charging pitbull" was making his way to me. And his owner was standing nearby, I would shoot the dog dead!!! and if the owner didnt like that and drew leather in revenge, well lets just say I always carry more than one bullet. Maybe we can bury them in the same hole!
farmerboy is offline  
Old November 4, 2011, 03:32 PM   #125
brickeyee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,342
I train my dogs not to bite.

I am not going to take bites from anyone else's dog.

It attacks, it is dead.

NOW.
With prejudice.

If on threatens my family they are dead. NOW.

Keep your dog under control and and prevent it from threatening me and it is not going to be harmed.
brickeyee is offline  
Reply

Tags
animals , dogs

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14516 seconds with 7 queries