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Old October 11, 2011, 08:18 PM   #76
BlackFeather
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Religion aside, a life is a life.

Animals attack out of defense more often than they do to kill, this is instinct. This is a fact. An animal actively seeking out and hunting you, is putting itself in harms way out of instinct, to survive.

I am not a Liberal, I am simply making a point that it seems like no one understands.

When dealing with animals, you are dealing with a very primal and basic thought process. The need for lethal force should not be reached any faster than when dealing with a human. If someone is standing there, threatening you, you shouldn't be shooting them. The moment they swing at you, you shouldn't be shooting them. It's ridiculous to think that every animal attack is going to result in life or death.

Trigger happy people, over those who make decisions to be defensive will always give us a bad name. There are levels of force to be noted. If you are that afraid of an animal, you can always say you were afraid for your life, I suppose...
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Old October 11, 2011, 08:20 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by DepOne
That's the best idea I've heard in years! Can we send the Muslims there too?
Enjoy your ban.
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Old October 11, 2011, 08:26 PM   #78
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I believe I made a prediction in post #3.
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Old October 11, 2011, 08:28 PM   #79
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Yeah, I know, I think I got out of hand.
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Old October 11, 2011, 08:57 PM   #80
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" When dealing with animals, you are dealing with a very primal and basic thought process. The need for lethal force should not be reached any faster than when dealing with a human. If someone is standing there, threatening you, you shouldn't be shooting them. The moment they swing at you, you shouldn't be shooting them. It's ridiculous to think that every animal attack is going to result in life or death. "


I'm sure the vet people can let us know all about the effects of a dog bite on humans. ( Even if the dog isn't rabid )

Oh I get what you are trying to say, we should not be shooting a dog because it is growling inside a fence, however if it has selected a human out in the open, something bad is about to happen.

By your screen name I'm guessing you follow some native American code of nature. If so, that code would have worked in the past where animals were truly wild and for the most part feared humans. This fear of humans kept interaction to a minimum.

Now a dog can be domesticated enough not to fear humans but still retain their instinct to attack, suddenly the rules have changed.

If a human was waving a gun we would consider this a threat, a dog baring teeth is no different as both signal intent that a attack is likely if not imminent.

Humans have at least some sense of right from wrong and the knowledge that if they attack someone they might go to jail, a animal has no such inhibitions making the line between a animal baring teeth and attacking much smaller. As a result, the human response to animal aggression threshold needs to be much lower. Factor in the speed that a animal can move and power to weight ratio an animal has, they have a advantage over a human further lowering the threshold.
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Old October 11, 2011, 09:12 PM   #81
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Shinto Buddhism and Native Beliefs, yes.

Behind a fence or not, a growling dog may be acting in defense. A human waving a gun around usually, isn't.

Your points are true. Add to that the strength of them in a pack, and it's scary. Down here in the desert we have packs of them, they have indeed killed kids and I believe a couple adults. I used to work out there, we heard them every day. The Mexican workers would befriend them, and the dogs would pay little mind.

I find that with the attacks I've dealt with, had I shot the animal before it got to me, I never would have known that it could have been easily scared off. Forgive me for feeling that one should take no life without reasonable cause, human or animal. It's not religious, it's not political. It is as what we all wish to defend, life.
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Old October 11, 2011, 09:17 PM   #82
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I will throw my .02 in.....

1. I grew up on a farm and we had to shoot dogs from time to time that would break in our chicken coup and eat or just kill as many as they could - my Grandads 20 guage farm gun loaded with whatever game loads we had (#6's usually) did the trick on all sizes.

2. I work with animal rescues and almost all largish, muscular dogs are labled as "pit bulls" if they bite someone and/or are threatening so it is not always true. I own a pitbull and yes they can be headstrong - like several have stated, not a dog for first-timers or uncomitted owners. For what it is worth, almost all stray pits that attack people or other dogs are abused/not cared for.

3. I would shoot my own dog if he was threatening someone who did not deserve it.

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Old October 11, 2011, 10:02 PM   #83
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Well I been following this thread just out of curiosity, and be it beyond me to know, but I'm shocked this thread hasn't been locked based on the last 10-15 posts since I last looked at this thread. Wow. Maybe we shouldn't talk about animals........or was that people......boy has this thread degenerated.



To the op. California and ethnic groups aside. The agreed theme here is you have a right to protect yourself and loved ones from bodily harm and/or death from animals, just like you do from humans. I see no distinction. How you choose to protect yourself, how much force to use, and when that point in time has arrived, is always a source of debate, even if only a minor debate, regardless if your speaking about two legged or four legged foul. As far as animals are concerned you will ALWAYS have those who believe animals are one micro step above insects and should be shot at the first sign of a growl. Then you have the other side of those who feel animals have just as much right to this planet as humans do and deserve the same consideration. I will admit I lean twards the latter. I hate to think aliens landed tomorrow, a thousand years more advanced than us, and killed us like insects just because we were more agressive than them, and not as smart as them.

Last edited by Hitthespot; October 11, 2011 at 10:18 PM.
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Old October 12, 2011, 10:53 AM   #84
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"I find that with the attacks I've dealt with, had I shot the animal before it got to me, I never would have known that it could have been easily scared off. Forgive me for feeling that one should take no life without reasonable cause, human or animal. It's not religious, it's not political. It is as what we all wish to defend, life. "

BlackFeather, I respect your beliefs. I'm happy there are people that believe in something other then what's in it for me.

For the record I tend to shuttle non threatening bugs out of the house as I'm squeamish about killing when the threat is low. However, wasps or other biting insects are hit with chemicals with little remorse because they can do some real damage to me. I don't hunt but if the normal food supply went away I could probably do what was needed ( or barter things I can do for those that I can't ) Same goes for shooting a human aggressor, the threat level must be high enough / ramifications of not acting severe enough for me to act.

Dealing with animals that are natural can be done your way, however we humans have messed with nature in breeding / training so our tactics must change. It's kind of like all chemicals come from nature but we humans have altered them into some pretty nasty stuff so the rules of nature no longer apply.

For a really epic example of the result of human bred / training of a animal for evil read this thread. http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=54853

The dog was a extension of the human that trained / sent it to attack. Given the victim could not go after the human, he went after the tool the human sent. While it isn't the dogs fault, there is no way around stopping this particular threat without stopping the dog.

This falls along the lines of " There are no bad breeds just bad owners." and " There are no bad guns just bad gun owners. " .
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Old October 12, 2011, 11:52 AM   #85
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Thank you, and I do the same for insects and spiders as well. Though even wasps usually get taken out. I've found that with practice one can carefully grab them by the wings and carry them out a door. The one thing I can't handle having around are the Black Widows. I have a Praying Mantis next to me, that will be freed soon, but I enjoy watching them, and practice a little Praying Mantis Kung Fu myself...

That is an interesting story, he's lucky the dog growled first. Had it simply charged him he may have ended up in worse shape. Considering it took the first blow from the shotgun, it wasn't going to go down with anything less. I have to wonder, was he between the dog and the owners?
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Old October 12, 2011, 02:48 PM   #86
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I can say that I have never out of malice harmed any animal. As for dogs I have never sprayed a dog in an instance that I was not in fear of an imminent attack. I have had to physicaly fight off a rot wiler (forgive bad spelling) once. That was why I started carrying the spray. (4 rabies shots in 6 weeks, and antibiotics for the puncture wounds.) The dog jumped over a fnece, and attacked me. I was not carrying at the time due to a company policy.

Out of thousands of dogs incountered I have only had to spray 3. They were all 3 together in a pack, one was moving in to hamstring me. I love animals. I am a dog owner. Yet if I or my dog are facing attack I will spray a dog with pepper spray. If the spray does not work I will shoot it. No malice involved. Simple protection of myself, and my dog.
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Old October 12, 2011, 08:20 PM   #87
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Who is advocating killing animals for no reason? It seems some here want to make this an argument about the relative value of animal life vs. human life. Wrong board. I would never kill any animal without a good reason but a truly aggressive and dangerous dog is very much a good reason. I have put up with a tremendous amount of abuse from dogs before finally shooting them too. When I first moved into my house I built 25 years ago my neighbor had 2 labs that thought I was on their turf. I had two small children. I warned the woman and asked the dog catcher for help. The dog catcher said shoot the dogs if they were on my property. We don't get much LEO action where I live. I warned the woman again. For those that might think labs are dangerous I can introduce you to a young girl (well she was 12 at the time) who had her face ripped off by a lab that everyone thought was friendly. That poor girl is terrorized by the sight of any dog now. I was all set to shoot the 2 labs in my yard when I noticed they weren't coming by several times a day. Someone else shot them before I got to it. They shot them with a bow right in the backyard of the neighbor's place.

Another lab used to come to my house and steal my dog's food. I felt sorry for it because it's owner didn't feed it. I didn't even mind feeding it but the thing threatened my wife and my daughter every time it saw them. It was scared of me and my son but it nearly went after my daughter once. Again I called the dog catcher because this was almost 2 decades later. The dog catcher said shoot it. I warned the owner twice. Then I shot it.

Most of the other dogs I've shot were drop offs that were starving to death. People are absolute morons about dropping off dogs. They really think they will learn to feed themselves. That's as cruel as it gets. Those dogs slowly starve to death. The other dogs I've had problems with are dogs that were never socialized. If pups are raised without human contact they will be wild animals with a lot less fear of humans than most wild animals. Those dogs are very dangerous. I shoot them every time.

I was a mailman. I know you don't have to shoot a dog defending it's turf or a scared dog. But sometimes you do. I never even minded being harassed by dogs because I knew how to deal with them. Dogs are naturally scared of things bigger than they are. You just have to intimidate them then try to calm them down. It's simple. It works. That pepper spray the post office gives out is an absolute joke BTW. You can't hit a dog in an effective area with that stuff unless you shoot better than Bill Hickok. I have had serious problem dogs that I tried to use that stuff on. You just can't hit them. I delivered mail out of a car mostly. Only once in a while did I need to get out to deliver a certified etc.. If there was a dog at a place where I needed to get out I left them a notice and made them come to the post office to get their mail.

I've had dogs try to bite me while I was putting mail in a box out my car window. It tried to bite my arm every day when I stuck it out. I finally quit delivering mail to that place and there wasn't thing one the guy could do about it. I had pocket dogs biting my feet while the owner said, "He acts mean but he doesn't bite". It was all I could do to keep from laughing ion her face. That dog couldn't even penetrate my shoe laces much less my shoes.

I grew up in a wild area. We learned to deal with all sorts of dogs from those that would chase you as you ran down the road past the house where they lived and there were those that were truly wild but learned really quick what a rock and a club was. Remember we were kids doing this. I know what happens to livestock chasing dogs too.

But would I ever kill a dog without a good reason? God forbid. I was raised better than that.
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Old October 13, 2011, 12:26 AM   #88
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It's ridiculous to think that every animal attack is going to result in life or death.
It may be ridiculous, but when my Neurosurgeon tells me a hit to the head could kill, or cause me very serious injury I believe him and will risk being ridiculous. I am always amazed how so many folks have the absolute answer to everything for everybody. Does anyone ever stop to think things may be different for another and that maybe that includes the answer ?
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Old October 13, 2011, 12:39 AM   #89
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Well, in your case then, it WOULD be.
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Old October 13, 2011, 01:52 AM   #90
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well i have to admit, if a dog comes on my property and growls at me Ill shoot him. And I also kill flies, skunks, mosquitos, spiders, snakes and many many more. Yes they are all living creatures until after I swat them or shoot them. If yall want to pepper spray them, send send them my way and Ill shoot them
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Old October 13, 2011, 10:17 AM   #91
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Just to clarify, Blackfeather, do you feel a right to defend yourself against any animal? If so, at what point do you decide that the animal has displayed sufficient aggression to justify a defensive response?

Since the Dalai Lama has stated that the use of defensive lethal force against humans is justified in the face of imminent attack, I wonder if Buddhism teaches that the response against an attack by an animal should be less than the response to an attack by a human?

I am not aware of any Native American nation whose ethics prohibited defense against an attacking animal. Is there one or more of which I am not aware?
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Old October 13, 2011, 12:56 PM   #92
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By my own personal beliefs, an animal moving towards me in a threatening manner is a threat. In the case of a dog, I do what I've done before. Attack the attack, or if it's by surprise, I get out of the way, then counter. More often than not, I've found dogs to retreat when you move towards them in a threatening manner. Will it always work? No. Larger animals, I get more serious. If I felt the need to carry bear spray in Oregon, I would, and likely use that when needed. Same goes for when I am in California, but the desert doesn't have many bears.

How about I compare two instances that I went through?

One, at night, on a narrow bridge on my way home through the park. I knew someone was walking behind me, but hadn't felt threatened. I get off the bridge, and turn around to get a second glimpse. The man, wearing a hood, lunged at me. I reacted by pushing his hand down and striking him with my left hand twice. Then I got out of there. I found out later, he had a knife, and it barely stuck through my pants. I defended myself, I had no weapon, and I lived. I found out later it was someone who had some problem with me for a situation that happened before, he was arrested not long after for possession of Methamphetamines.

Two, a dog barking inside a fence as I am walking through the alley way, on my way home. It jumps the fence, and charges me. I get out of the way, then step forward to kick it with my neat little steel toed boots. He reacted the same way I did, and got out of the way. Then, he took off. The owners grabbed him, and apologized, I said get a higher fence.

Had I worried about weapons in either case, I likely wouldn't have put up as much of a defense. I may have had a reason to use lethal force in the first one, but I reacted on instinct to get out of the way of harm. Just as the dog did with me. See the point? Not every potentially lethal situation, needs a lethal answer. Self defense, is exactly that. I don't have a problem killing, if it's my only option to stop something, but 9 times out of 10, it isn't. If you all think I'm a joke, that's fine.
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Old October 13, 2011, 02:07 PM   #93
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well i have to admit, if a dog comes on my property and growls at me Ill shoot him. And I also kill flies, skunks, mosquitos, spiders, snakes and many many more. Yes they are all living creatures until after I swat them or shoot them. If yall want to pepper spray them, send send them my way and Ill shoot them
Ok, this post has made me break my rule of only posting once in this thread.
This post is what is wrong with the world, these backwoods hillbillies not caring 2 spits for life at all. Sir you are in serious need of help, killing animals for fun is what leads to serial killers. You need all your guns confiscated and to be locked in a mental asylum until you are deemed competent to rejoin society. You make me sick....
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Old October 13, 2011, 02:13 PM   #94
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Indeed. Would you shoot wiener dog? How about a cat that hissed at you?

I daresay, you open up anywhere outside of a farm with no one around then you're going to end up in jail pretty quickly unless its a serious threat. Taking out Bob the yorkie is generally frowned upon.
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Old October 13, 2011, 02:21 PM   #95
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Pepper Spray

I respect the damage a dog is capable of and consider a K9 attack a lethal threat. A cop buddy of mine was bit on the forearm during training. They (the cops) were stacked on a door to practice a dynamic entry with the dog being first in. They breached the door, released the dog, which promptly bit the nearest cop, oops. A single bite on the forearm and it messed him up for a long time. Deep penetrating and crushing wound that became infected, ouch. Is an attack by a stray dog, justification for lethal force? In my opinion, yes. That being said, I want more options. If I can ward the dog off with mace, good. As certain as death and taxes if I pull my CCW and shoot a dog I will have a whole lot of explaining to do. If I mace him, who cares? If the dog presents a public menace I'll call the cops and let them answer the mail on why they shot it. I will shoot a dog without hesitation if I need to but if I can avert the necessity of shooting, I will. No big morale issue with killing a menacing dog, I just don't want avoidable drama in my life.
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Old October 14, 2011, 02:59 AM   #96
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I respect the damage a dog is capable of and consider a K9 attack a lethal threat. A cop buddy of mine was bit on the forearm during training. They (the cops) were stacked on a door to practice a dynamic entry with the dog being first in. They breached the door, released the dog, which promptly bit the nearest cop, oops. A single bite on the forearm and it messed him up for a long time. Deep penetrating and crushing wound that became infected, ouch. Is an attack by a stray dog, justification for lethal force? In my opinion, yes. That being said, I want more options. If I can ward the dog off with mace, good. As certain as death and taxes if I pull my CCW and shoot a dog I will have a whole lot of explaining to do. If I mace him, who cares? If the dog presents a public menace I'll call the cops and let them answer the mail on why they shot it. I will shoot a dog without hesitation if I need to but if I can avert the necessity of shooting, I will. No big morale issue with killing a menacing dog, I just don't want avoidable drama in my life.
This.

Yes I do like dogs. And no I don't advocate killing things without purpose.

But a dog is a dog. And yes, that means its life is MUCH less valuable than that of a humans, so if a dogs life is threatening to severely and negativley alter a humans life, that dogs life will be ended unless pepper spray or some other non-lethal ordnance is available.

That said, I have started carrying a small can of pepper spray on my key ring, and I strongly recommend anyone that carries a firearm do so also. It can allow you to deal with a great percentage of real-life situations on a much stronger legal ground, and possibly without a loss of life. Also, in the event that lethal force does have to be used after pepper spray failed (i.e. multiple unarmed assailants, unarmed assailants of much larger size, dogs, etc.), it would be a strong indicator to the police and jury that you were indeed the victim, and acting out of fear for your life, as opposed to pride, anger, or stupidity.
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Old October 14, 2011, 09:02 AM   #97
nice shot
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My thoughts.

I wanted to respond to the original poster first.

I would guess that any caliber would be a worthy caliber when it comes to saving your life against an attacking animal. That being said Im gonn ause the 60 yr old woman for an example. For her, maybe a .22 or a .32 would be a more managable weapon than a .357 mag. It only takes one round to kill something, shot placement is the key. Even if she missed the first shot, the sound from the bullet leaving the muzzle is surely to attract attention and possibly divert the dog, even for a second.

My own thought.

I've yet to put a dog down for attacking myself or anyone else. I have had to put down a few pigs, which all be it are not dogs, they are still a viable 4 legged threat. I recently shot a russian boar in what I thought was the spine, was charged a second time, then aimed straight at the shoulder. Hit clear as day, knocked it down, it got back up, charged again, fired and missed, fired and missed, jumped on a fence. The pig ran to the other end of the pen, I fired straight at the head, hit it, walked up on it only to find it breathing its last breath.

After stripping the meat off of it, I realized my first bullet (the supoposed spine shot) hit its fat above its back strap and spine. I was no where near what I thoguht was the spine, I was an easy 3" away. Granted I was in a controlled environment (some what), I knew no matter what I could always hop over a fence, I realized that even after blowing its left front should almost off, I still hadnt caused much damage in the way of stopping this animal. Heck even the head shot didnt immediately kill it.

My next animal encounter will hopefully go like this:

aknowledge, evade, react, respond, evade. Wash rinse repeat. Seems to be the only logical option when shooting a moving target that aims to hurt you.
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Old October 14, 2011, 09:54 AM   #98
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A large savage dog can be a very dangerous thing. Remember the movie KUDJO.?
A while back, I had an encounter with a full grown very mean Dobermin Pincher. The damn dog even was wearing a spiked collar. It attacked out of no-where, fast, and powerfull. Being knocked down, hurt and bloodied, I had no choice but to put the dog down.
I had to have rabbie prevention shots, and 38 stitches to the arms/hands.
It was a stray dog that some irresponsible owner should have been horsed wipped for plain ignorance.
Never found the owners of the dog.
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Old October 23, 2011, 04:11 PM   #99
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I carry a shot shell (snake shot) in my .38spl just in case. 1 shot shell, 4 critical defense. I will chamber it where the 1st shot is shot shell when out walking with my 18mnth old daughter. I live in a rural area, where alot of people like to dump of there unwanted dogs. But after we get home i rotate the cylinder so 1st four shots will be critical defense and last shot is shot shell. (At home i have a 12ga for any criminal element, but carry my .38spl 24/7) Im not sure how well a shot shell would work against a dog, but i figuered it would scare it off, plus the sound of the round going of. I dont want to kill the dog, thats the reason i have that shot shell. not sure how well this theroey would work.
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Old October 23, 2011, 04:54 PM   #100
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I am a native American from Scotland. My folks came here a hundred and fifty years ago and my beliefs are that we shoot on sight any dog that is threatening to maim or harm a person. That is why I carry much more so than the two legged creeps most of us originally got the CCW in the first place.

My wife was out on her walk the other day up here in Coeur d'Alene and two large pit bulls were on a walk there master with NO LEASH. They came running at her as soon as they saw her and she thought her days were numbered until he whistled them back. If I had been with her, I would have already drawn which means I would have had to call it in to the police. My wife was quite shaken by the entire incident and folks need to have their muts under control at all times, and not just by a whistle.

It seems that folks don't get ordinary muts any longer, but all I see all day long over and over again is pit bulls. If they attack, folks get hurt pure and simple. I don't apologize for carrying in the event of a dog attack. They are going down if they are coming towards me, bottom line.
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