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Old September 30, 2011, 10:45 PM   #1
Constantine
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9mm - .40S&W - .45ACP & Home Defense

I know this has been covered sometime or another. But I've been exclusively using my phone with this forum for the last few months and app doesn't have a search option.


Which of these should be the least worry with over penetration?

Yeah yeah yeah, I know. A shotgun for home defense. Have that. Know about that, but I want to know about these handgun cartridges and over penetration. Which does less. What tests are out there. Etc.

Thanks in advance.

SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - Remington 870
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Old September 30, 2011, 10:56 PM   #2
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This is more geared toward choice of gun rather than tactics or training with it.

Therefore, moving....
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Old October 1, 2011, 08:00 AM   #3
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Sorry. Chuck "/

*bump*

Really curious to this.

I always either sleep with the SIG P226 and a mounted light or the Glock 21 and a mounted light or the Glock 22 with a flashlight.

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Old October 1, 2011, 08:17 AM   #4
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Since when has the home defense long gun been "Have that. Know about that"?

A number of instructors recommend carbines for home defense, specifically in .223 or 5.56 because the round tumbles and fragments when hitting something solid, which reduces penetration.

On topic, most of these calibers will penetrate pretty much the same.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

http://www.kelvrick.com/rangerchart.jpg

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sig...comparison.jpg

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-...Comparison.jpg
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Old October 1, 2011, 09:07 PM   #5
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This question can't be answered because it depends on types of round not the weapon they're fired from.

An 870 with bird shot is going to penetrate less than a 9mm hardball.

Conversely a 9mm +P 124gr JHP is going to penetrate less than #00 Buck

You have to look at test results for each round.

For handguns, each additional inch of barrel length generally results in an extra 20fps of velocity - however, it's hard to translate what that means as far as penetration and expansion - you just have to find someone who has published results for the brand / caliber / bullet weight and barrel length that you are interested in.
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Old October 1, 2011, 09:34 PM   #6
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Assuming you're talking about overpenetrating a human target, modern hollowpoints in all service handgun calibers are engineered for similar depths of penetration to meet standard set by the FBI. However, generally speaking the lighter weight bullets in a particular caliber will penetrate less than the heavier weight bullets in the same caliber.
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Old October 2, 2011, 12:27 AM   #7
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http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
this will help you out. they test every caliber you wanted to know about. except the .40. but we all know about the .40, it penetrates more than the 9mm. So, according to the above the 9mm went through 8 sheet rock walls and bounced off the 9th. the 45 went through 7 boards and bounced off the 8th.
Every 2 sheet walls on this test = one wall in your house.
So this means that if you shoot a .45 bullet it will go through 3 rooms and then some as long as it doesn't hit a beam, or anything else to slow it down. Just from one side of the paint to the other and so on.
personal preference for me is the 45. but I have +p's for my SD rounds so even then it will be more.
the moral of the story is follow the gun safety rules so you don't have to worry about shooting your neighbors across the street
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Old October 2, 2011, 05:58 AM   #8
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LEO did some testing with school response. They found the 223 SP penetrated less then 40 S&W in a school setting. I always had a 18.5 inch pump with 00 buck as my HD gun, but switched to a 9mm, (chose the 9mm specifically for penetration. Lighter bullets for HD.) The reason I switched to a handgun was ease of use. We had a rash of B&Es in my neighborhood and I had to get up and check a noise or two. Clearing your house includes allot of walking, door opening, light switches... I found it wasn't practical with a long gun. Living in a rural area the police response is at least 15 minutes after midnight, which is about 14 minutes and thirty seconds to late if something is going on. The one time I did call it was forty five minutes and the dude was long gone by the time the Troopers got here.
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Old October 3, 2011, 09:24 AM   #9
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I keep my FNP-40 with Trijicon night-sites next to me at night. The sites are awesome and I'm pretty confident having 15rds (14+1) on .40 S&W to work with.
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Old October 3, 2011, 12:21 PM   #10
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P226 in .40 S&W with rear Triji's and a front F/0 sight on my night stand every night, with one hell of a bright LED flashlight next to it. Been thinking about adding Crimson Trace grips to it, but the front activation button config doesnt feel very good when I am gripping it.


I live in a condo so I do have to worry about over penetration, the intention would be center mass shots using 180gr Gold Dots or Hornady Critical Def. The most likly senario I have played out in my head is I would either be firing facing my front door, or balcony door in either case OP is not as much of a concern. Shooting in the direction of the balcony door I WOULD need to worry about stray rounds and the apartment building 50 yards away.
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Old October 4, 2011, 03:37 PM   #11
Clifford L. Hughes
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Constantine:

I don't have any experience with shooting the 9mm or the .40 cal. But I do have with the .45 ACP. I shot a wild boar with a Hornady 200 grain XTP. I was hunting with dogs so my shot was at point blank range. The bullet hit the hog at the base of its neck and traveled diagonally, taking three inches of neck bone, about twelve inches and lodged under the ear and behind the jaw on the opposite side. That's a lot of penetration on flesh but walls are harder and they would slow down a light bullet for caliber. Any bullet/caliber that is adequate for self defence will penetrate walls. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


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Old October 5, 2011, 11:55 AM   #12
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My HD gun is a Springer Loaded ... I don't worry too much about overpenetration because the only folks here are my wife and I and I usually know where she is in the house ... I chose it because the .45 round, fired accurately, gives me the best chance IMHO of stopping an attacker, which is my first concern in a home invasion situation ... I use Hornady Critical Defense ammo because it expands well ...

and make sure you have night sights on the gun ... makes it way easy to find and index in the dark, along with the advantage of being able to line up your sights quickly in low light.
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Old October 6, 2011, 07:19 PM   #13
Constantine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerbill View Post
My HD gun is a Springer Loaded ... I don't worry too much about overpenetration because the only folks here are my wife and I and I usually know where she is in the house ... I chose it because the .45 round, fired accurately, gives me the best chance IMHO of stopping an attacker, which is my first concern in a home invasion situation ... I use Hornady Critical Defense ammo because it expands well ...

and make sure you have night sights on the gun ... makes it way easy to find and index in the dark, along with the advantage of being able to line up your sights quickly in low light.
You don't mind just having 7-8 rds of .45 acp?

SA 1911 - XD45 - G21sf - G22 - G27 - Hk USP 40 - SIG P226 E2 - Browning High-Power - S&W M19-3 - CZ-82 - Remington 870
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Old October 6, 2011, 08:22 PM   #14
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1911 loaded 230 grain Hardball 45 ACP.

My wife has her TZ 75 in 9mm.

Reason I shoot better with the 45 she will nail you with the 9.

Use what you can hit with.
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Old October 8, 2011, 09:13 AM   #15
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Hey, Constantine ... I don't feel there are any issues with having 8 rds in the gun; I keep a spare mag in the nightstand right next to the gun, a 4-inch tactical folder and a Surefire 9p ... also keep an older cellphone there; remember that older phones can still be used to call 9-1-1, but they won't be going off all night with incoming calls ...
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Old October 11, 2011, 09:17 PM   #16
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Rob Pincus take on 9/40/45

http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_...1b43S,bbSbHJ7K

As was previously posted in this 9 v 40 thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ghlight=pincus
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Old October 11, 2011, 10:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
You don't mind just having 7-8 rds of .45 acp?
i prefer 45acp for home defense. most defense scenario gunfights are over after you fire 2-3 rounds tops anyway.

if a higher capacity makes you more comfortable, just grab yourself a glock 21. 13+1 of 45acp is quite lovely
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Old October 11, 2011, 11:16 PM   #18
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Move to New York. We're only allowed to have 10 round mags, so a full-size .45 with 10 rounds is the most firepower we can legally have. Makes the gun decision buying process a touch easier in these situations
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Old October 11, 2011, 11:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
You don't mind just having 7-8 rds of .45 acp?
If I were shooting at a stationary paper target, one would be enough.

What too many people overlook is that in a real SD situation, the target will be shooting back at you.

What becomes critical at that point is not how many rounds you have as how effectively you deploy them.

I am perfectly happy with 7-9 rounds of .45 acp, as I believe that regardless of the number of assailants, the fight will be over very quickly.

If I am 1v1, I am pretty confident the confrontation will go my way, because I practice regularly, I can hit what I aim at and I shoot what I believe to be an effective caliber.

If I am 1v2, I believe I stand a decent chance, because I can hit what I shoot at and shoot an effective caliber...but I'm going to have to hope that one of my adversaries is not as good as I am...and I'm going to hope that he's the second one I aim at.

If I am 1v3, I am in big trouble. I will do the best I can, but I am a realist and I understand math and probability.

Having 17 rounds of a less-effective caliber does not increase my odds in the slightest...in fact, it diminishes them, as I will have to put three or more 9mm rounds into each assailant before moving to the next one...while the other BG(s) are pumping rounds into me.

Last edited by orionengnr; October 11, 2011 at 11:27 PM.
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Old October 12, 2011, 08:21 AM   #20
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^ I always think that in situations like the ones described above, that even a light IIA vest would change the dynamic considerably.

I still find it odd, maybe just logically inconsistent, that people will spend a lot of metal energy thinking about 9mm versus .40 versus .45 or 124gr +P versus 147gr...

But they spend almost no time considering the possibilities and weighing the pros and cons of incorporating protective clothing into their tactical thinking.
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Old October 12, 2011, 09:17 AM   #21
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"9mm - .40S&W - .45ACP & Home Defense...
Which of these should be the least worry with over penetration? "

The 9mm and 40 S&W are pretty good penetrators. The standard fmj 45 ACP coming out a 3" barrel would be the best bet.

"You don't mind just having 7-8 rds of .45 acp? "

The 3" SA 1911 only holds 7 (6+1) and the AMT holds 6 (5+1) but hardball 45 ACP tends to knock people down. Even 5 or 6 is plenty.

Time to come over to the dark side...and sleep with a 3" barreled 1911 or AMT 45.
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Old October 12, 2011, 09:22 AM   #22
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Answer: .45 ACP - 230 grain subsonic.
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Old October 12, 2011, 12:43 PM   #23
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Over penetrate what? Drywall? Wall studs? A Burglar? All three calibers will penetrate soft tissue almost exactly the same (with modern, quality hollowpoints). The .40 and .45 will penetrate more through hard barriers (a product of their increased mass).

The answer has already been given - if this seriously concerns you, use a .223/5.56.
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Old October 12, 2011, 02:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
but hardball 45 ACP tends to knock people down.
This is a myth.

Newton's Third Law states that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the recoil doesn't knock you down the bullet will not knock the recipent down, either.
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Old October 12, 2011, 02:59 PM   #25
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True, .45 ACP hardball does not knock anyone down.

But, It does have a battlefield earned reputation of interrupting the act of bipedestacion
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