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Old September 30, 2011, 05:04 PM   #26
orangello
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I would agree with the comparison between the status of marijuana users and those who are prescribed an interesting array of mind-altering "medications" in pill form. There were some very medicated persons at my last job who were probably not any more competent to safely handle a firearm than either Cheech or Chong's stereotypical characters would be. It would be nice if the laws could match reality or "common sense", but i doubt that will ever happen.

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Federal law allows for limited, lawful prescribing of drugs that can't otherwise be lawfully prescribed. It must be done under a formal research protocol and subject to oversight by an Institutional Review Board, as part of the clinical trial and investigation of new and novel drugs and therapies.
LOL, I am reminded of "do as we say do, not as we do" here, the role of government.
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Old September 30, 2011, 06:05 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by orangello
I would agree with the comparison between the status of marijuana users and those who are prescribed an interesting array of mind-altering "medications" in pill form. There were some very medicated persons at my last job who were probably not any more competent to safely handle a firearm than either Cheech or Chong's stereotypical characters would be. It would be nice if the laws could match reality or "common sense", but i doubt that will ever happen.
There are multiple issues here that consistently get garbled.

[1] Should marijuana be legalized in some way or another? And of course a subset of that question is whether it should at least be legal for a physician to prescribe it. I may (and do) think it should be legal, but there are also people who think it shouldn't be. In fact there are still folks who think alcoholic beverages should not be legal.

But the current state of affairs is that it is not legal under federal law. There are ways to change that, but for now the law is what it is.

[2] Then there's the question of federal law preempting state law. It creates a lot of confusion and consternation. One may be kosher under state law using marijuana under a state medical marijuana program but still be violating federal law and be a prohibited person who may not then lawfully, under federal law, possess a gun.

It's highly unlikely that the judicial rulings that form the foundation of that state of affairs will be reversed. However, it would be a simple matter for Congress to make the issue go away with a couple minor tweaks to the Controlled Substances Act and the GCA of 1968. Whether such changes would be politically viable is another matter.

[3] Of course an all out Second Amendment challenge to the 18 USC 922(g), the list of "prohibited persons" could, if successful, resolve the gun possession side of he equation, but it wouldn't resolve the marijuana use issues.

[4] Then of course there is the issue of an impaired person handling a gun. But that is really the same issue whether the impairment is caused by marijuana, some other drug (legal or illegal), alcohol or just plain old stupidity. And it's a similar issue whether it involves guns, cars, power tools or anything else that can hurt anyone.
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Old October 1, 2011, 09:56 AM   #28
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On 1, I do think the time has come for a change in the law/perception that the government should have such control over a citizen's intake & output (next they will be complaining about the color of my poop).

On 2 and 3, I think the best resolution for that problem would be a MASSIVE reduction of the size and power of the federal government in all areas other than defense. Of course, step-by-step reductions in federal over-reach such as an elimination or MAJOR retooling of the GCA of 1968 and the Controlled Substances Act would be an excellent start. If a citizen is free to choose his/her own food & "supplements" AND is allowed the freedom of self-defense currently limited by the GCA of '68, the chafing of other federal restrictions might be less of an annoyance.

On 4, there can be no arguement that an impaired person shouldn't be using dangerous tools or heavy equipment. The question of the definition of "impaired" is the only sticking point; some would consider any detectable trace of an intoxicant to show "impairment". Current "impairment" measurements for alcohol and driving would indicate that the majority opinion doesn't support a zero detectable trace-tolerance policy.

Overall, the right to self-defense and the right to control one's own body are both freedoms that should be protected from further government infringement by any means available, IMO.

Of course, laws such as these did not come about in a vacuum. It could be argued that they came about due to citizens' failures to limit themselves safely or to exercise "good judgement", but i'm not sure the twisted history of the GCA or CSA support that theory of their origin.

Last edited by orangello; October 1, 2011 at 10:02 AM.
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Old October 1, 2011, 06:26 PM   #29
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For what it is worth I have no problem with prohibiting MJ users from purchasing firearms.

As an Army Officer who began his career in 1973 I know first hand the problems MJ and other drug use caused in the Army. I know what it took to clean it up and mold the Professional force we have today.

I suggest reading the Phoenix Solution. It is a book which had a profound impact on my antidrug Zero Tolerance stance.
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Old October 1, 2011, 07:46 PM   #30
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So, according to ATF, allowing medical marijuana users to buy firearms BAD.

Furnishing drug cartels with firearms GOOD.


Nothing like being consistent.

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As an Army Officer who began his career in 1973 I know first hand the problems MJ and other drug use caused in the Army. I know what it took to clean it up and mold the Professional force we have today.
Things have changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNqIrDKnNE8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIF6...eature=related
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Old October 1, 2011, 08:06 PM   #31
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As an Army Officer who began his career in 1973 I know first hand the problems MJ and other drug use caused in the Army. I know what it took to clean it up and mold the Professional force we have today.
I remember when the Navy started moving to a zero tolerance policy. It had its good and bad points. On the plus side there is no room for impairment on a flight deck or around aircraft operations in general, weather the substance is legal or not. The flight deck and planes are already trying to kill you as it is. On the negative side we lost some of our best people because of what they did on their own time, they were never impaired at work. On the plus side we got rid of some people that were impaired on the job and basically just useless POS'S.
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Old October 1, 2011, 08:50 PM   #32
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I know it's very popular and very simple to equate alcoholic beverage consumption and the use of marijuana, however, I don't see them as analagous at all. The ONLY reason anyone smokes/eats/whatever marijuana is for the mind-altering effect. This is not the case with alcoholic beverages, necessarily. Many people enjoy fine spirits, wine and beer for the taste, not to get stoned or high. So all of the inevitable comparisons between legal alcohol use and illegal marijuana use that don't allow for this very real fact are, inherently, flawed.
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Old October 1, 2011, 09:00 PM   #33
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I know it's very popular and very simple to equate alcoholic beverage consumption and the use of marijuana, however, I don't see them as analagous at all. The ONLY reason anyone smokes/eats/whatever marijuana is for the mind-altering effect. This is not the case with alcoholic beverages, necessarily. Many people enjoy fine spirits, wine and beer for the taste, not to get stoned or high. So all of the inevitable comparisons between legal alcohol use and illegal marijuana use that don't allow for this very real fact are, inherently, flawed.
That is slicing the bread very thin. Put aside the legalities and cultural acceptance for a second. Alcohol is a drug by nearly every accepted definition of what a drug is. If it did not have such a long history of use in our culture it would be a schedule one drug.
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Old October 2, 2011, 11:04 AM   #34
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pnac So, according to ATF, allowing medical marijuana users to buy firearms BAD.

Furnishing drug cartels with firearms GOOD.
ATF didn't pass a law making marijuana a controlled substance....Congress did.

ATF deserves to get blamed for the stupid stuff they do. In this case the blame or credit goes to the Congressmen you elected.
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Old October 2, 2011, 11:23 AM   #35
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I know it's very popular and very simple to equate alcoholic beverage consumption and the use of marijuana, however, I don't see them as analagous at all. The ONLY reason anyone smokes/eats/whatever marijuana is for the mind-altering effect. This is not the case with alcoholic beverages, necessarily. Many people enjoy fine spirits, wine and beer for the taste, not to get stoned or high. So all of the inevitable comparisons between legal alcohol use and illegal marijuana use that don't allow for this very real fact are, inherently, flawed.
That is slicing the bread very thin. Put aside the legalities and cultural acceptance for a second. Alcohol is a drug by nearly every accepted definition of what a drug is. If it did not have such a long history of use in our culture it would be a schedule one drug.
Well, hang on a second. I enjoy a glass of scotch

If I have a steak dinner, I drink only scotch with my meal. Has nothing to do with the effects of alcohol making me drunk or giving me a buzz. Has everything to do with the fact that my palate is 'opened' by the scotch and the meat tastes better to me as a result. The point is valid, even if it's a small one. Meals are often times prepared with a wine, or even another spirit. Menus can be arranged around which spirit goes with what dish. Alcoholic beverages actually have slight- but measurably detected by studies- health benefits

By contrast, pot doesn't go with a meal, does it? I haven't heard of any gourmands starting the custom of cannabis braziers in private restaurants. Inhalation of a substance for an altered perception is a step removed- a baby step if you like but still a step- from the act of drinking a liquid, and the custom of drinking alcohol sprung up among other things because water was unsafe to drink. Nobody breathed pot because they couldn't breathe the air. Drinking alcohol and smoking dope are in two separate orbits, even if they can be argued to be similar ones.

The ATF should no more be permissive against 'legal' pot smokers than they should about a potential gun owner that has a doctor's note which says the person must regularly engage in some other "medicine" which can lower the ability to reason well.
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Old October 2, 2011, 01:08 PM   #36
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This is not the case with alcoholic beverages, necessarily. Many people enjoy fine spirits, wine and beer for the taste, not to get stoned or high.
Uh, no. Whether you realize it or not, your body wants to 'get high'. If you have ever been inebriated, your brain will remember and ask for more. Saying I just like the taste is denial. Perhaps you don't care to get intoxicated to the same degree as others, but now were just talking detail, semantics if you will.

That sense of well being that you feel after a glass of wine is not some wine tasters feel good that comes from the taste, it's called intoxication. You don't have to be drunk or tipsy, it's just low level inebriation.

Call me a liar and have another lump of sugar in your coffee, it's not a drug either, or the coffee.
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Old October 2, 2011, 01:44 PM   #37
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Pnac; great point! (ATF, Congress, who cares....it was somebody in DC)

But now back to the real world...
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Old October 2, 2011, 03:08 PM   #38
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Of course, the real point (two points, actually) is that 1) until and unless the Congress removes pot as a schedule I drug, or 2) Until the SCOTUS overturns Raich and narrows the scope of the Commerce Clause, the ATF, in this case, is acting wholly within the law.
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Old October 2, 2011, 03:38 PM   #39
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Government claims no medicinal value in Marijuana, yet they have held a patent on the medical BENEFITS of marijuana on Neurological symptoms. They just haven't figured a way to rape the public if it gets legalize or it already would be. Colorado here is collecting tax and fees to the tune of multi millions from patients and stores that sell it. The state even stole 9 million from the patient fund to help balance the budget, against the state constitution.
Marijuana is SAFER then aspirin, alcohol and any Rx drugs. PERIOD. No deaths caused by marijuana, can't say that about the other legal drugs.

Rant over,

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Old October 2, 2011, 05:46 PM   #40
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While wine and beer can taste good, please compare the sales of nonalcoholic versions of such vs. the standards.

The legal question about alcohol vs. marijuana is clearly that one has a federal law against such and the other does not in the same way.

One wonders if prohibition had stayed in forced, in that alternate universe, would we be debating those who had an Rx for alcohol (which did exist then) could have a gun.
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Old October 2, 2011, 06:51 PM   #41
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By contrast, pot doesn't go with a meal, does it?
No, it usually comes before a meal, often a meal consisting of Doritos, Hostess snack cakes, and ramen noodles. That meal is usually consumed in bean-bag chairs to the sounds of Carlos Santana. I went to a liberal arts school; I know this stuff.

As others have mentioned, the law is the law. The courts have upheld it. The ATF is a law enforcement agency, and it's their job to enforce it.

If we want changes, we need to change the law. This whole situation is nothing new, and I'm confused as to why it suddenly made the headlines this week.
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Old October 2, 2011, 06:56 PM   #42
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Roger, many studies find that inhalation of marijuana smoke promotes pulmonary infections, respiratory diseases and cancer. I will have to disagree with your conviction that no deaths have been caused by marijuana. What you mean is that since it has been extremely difficult to cite marijuana as the primary cause of death, the data can be viewed such that it's safer than aspirin because there has yet to be a case in which a death is proven to be from an overdose of THC. The FDA however finds that it is a contributing factor to many deaths- just not the primary cause.

I could argue that drunk driving deaths are primarily from exsanguination, not due to the toxicity of alcohol. But we'd both agree that drunk driving was the problem in that case, I assume
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Old October 2, 2011, 07:38 PM   #43
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Let's get back the legal issues. Ingesting various unhealthy substances isn't our domain.

I don't know if we want to debate legalization of marijuane per se. I'll make a judgement call and say: NO.

That's because it will start a flame war quickly. The relevant issue is state vs. Feds.
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Old October 3, 2011, 11:45 AM   #44
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This is simply an area the government need not insert its noses into, IMO. Much like making me carry health insurance of their standard or requiring a girl to get a questionable immunization for a disease of very limited contagious nature or requiring firearms training or a home safe for firearms purchases. It is not the Federal government's business; it isn't the State governments' business; it IS the individuals' business and theirs alone. If they abuse their freedoms, then that individual should be reigned in, not society as a whole. Look at how sex offenders are tracked (imperfectly, but a start); do we limit all adults to a 100 yard perimiter of elementary schools, or do we limit those who have abused their freedoms?

I haven't abused my freedoms; leave me alone.

Quote:
I know it's very popular and very simple to equate alcoholic beverage consumption and the use of marijuana, however, I don't see them as analagous at all. The ONLY reason anyone smokes/eats/whatever marijuana is for the mind-altering effect. This is not the case with alcoholic beverages, necessarily. Many people enjoy fine spirits, wine and beer for the taste, not to get stoned or high. So all of the inevitable comparisons between legal alcohol use and illegal marijuana use that don't allow for this very real fact are, inherently, flawed.
I have known a number of people who were very experienced in the area who would disagree with you, including more than a few chefs. Flavor makes most of the difference between the "dirt" and the "dank". I've known a few beer lovers who swore they were only there for the taste of some fine micro-brew or other, but i haven't seen one who didn't get some buzz from it.
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Old October 3, 2011, 12:49 PM   #45
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It is not the Federal government's business; it isn't the State governments' business; it IS the individuals' business and theirs alone.
Not since the government put the stuff on Schedule I in 1970. Right or wrong, it's been illegal for nearly 40 years. In the intervening time, there has been little legal opposition, and none of it very effective.

The ATF didn't just pass some new law; they're just reminding gun dealers of something they know anyway. Yet it becomes front-page news, and everybody panics like it's something new.

I'm not even sure if this is really a 2nd Amendment issue. I'd imagine that a court challenge would probably come from a different angle.
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Old October 3, 2011, 07:46 PM   #46
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Tom Servo:......The ATF didn't just pass some new law; they're just reminding gun dealers of something they know anyway. Yet it becomes front-page news, and everybody panics like it's something new.
+1

Next months terror news flash.........

Buyers must be 21 years old to buy a handgun from a licensed dealer!

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Old October 4, 2011, 06:23 AM   #47
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Until the Issue of medical MJ is resolved, Legal in some states, illegal at the federal level. We as gun owners need to avoid the legal debate.

We face an uphill battle to restore our rights and protect our sports. We do not need to align ourselves with a medical issue supported with non pier reviewed data.
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Old October 4, 2011, 06:31 AM   #48
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it is a little ridiculous that someone can tell a grown man what he can or can't do in his own home though. Many, many lives are lost due to these 'uphill battles' and 'drug wars', and yet supply & demand will always prevail. I know it isn't realistic to feel I can do "whatever I want" in society as well though. I don't even smoke. I gave up cigarettes and all forms of tobacco in 3/2001.

One thing is for certain, being impaired while shooting the gun or CCWing is incorrect in many forms. Everyone already knows this though as pointed out in earlier posts about levels of intoxication and so forth.
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Old October 4, 2011, 12:13 PM   #49
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Buyers must be 21 years old to buy a handgun from a licensed dealer!
What?!? No way! When did that happen? Next thing, they'll pass some law that says I can't buy one if I've renounced my citizenship. I bet Holder's just waitin' to do that, too.

Marijuana is the cause of a host of social ills, not the least of which is the continued career of Pink Floyd after the departure of Roger Waters. It's illegal to own it. It's illegal to smoke it. That's not a secret, nor is it some obscure statutory thing.

While I may disagree with that situation, I've yet to meet an advocate for legalization who isn't an active user, and therefore engaged in criminal activity. Credibility becomes a real issue.
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Old October 4, 2011, 12:39 PM   #50
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Well, meet one.
I smoked plenty of pot in my youth, having graduated high school in the 1970's and attended Kent State University. Virtually everyone smoked pot then.
I am a DOT regulated truck driver, and subject to random urine testing. I have not touched pot for a decade, and I have the drug test results to prove it.
I am firmly in favor of legalization. Punish those who use irresponsibly, just like alcohol drinkers.
Medicinal pot proved it's worth to me just recently when my brother was diagnosed with cancer. Living in California, he was able to get various edible forms of pot which helped him like no other drug which the doctors tried.
While he is not a regular shooter like me, he does own a pistol our father brought home from WWII.
Should his use of a state taxed and legalized substance require him to divest himself of that pistol?
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