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Old September 18, 2011, 01:04 PM   #1
Thundergrunt
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New Guy IDPA Questions.

Hello fellow enthusiasts. I am new gun owner and have new intrest in IDPA events. I have been researching for a little bit on the rules and requirments and such. But have a couple questions as to pistols and classes or divisions. Dont bash me to hard.

First question.

I have 3 pistols a XD 4" .45acp is my home defense gun or nightstand gun as I have seen written, I have a Sig P6 9m that is one of my ccw guns and conceal most, and a Sig 226 in 9mm. I would like to start shooting IDPA and was wondering if all these I could shoot in SSP class they are all stock.

Second Question.

I realtion to beginner pistol choices and the pistols I have, I eventually want to be competitive, but I see alot of posts and vids of the competitions and almost 98% are all glocks and 1911's. Almost all the winners i have seen and read online and top persons use these over other guns by a numerous amount, so it seems to me a little like it is more of a game than an actual Defensive action shoot. Im not trying to start a gun battle, but can someone kind of explain that you would think there would be a more varied mix I just read somthing that stated that a National shoot in 09 i think it was there was like 62 glock shooters 51 1911 and then next closet was M&P at like 18 or so and then all the rest were single digits, that is why it seems more like game than a actual defensive shooting apllication. Sorry if I didnt state that right, but I hope you get my gist. I want to do IPDA to enhance my skills, and eventullay do great in a class but, it only seems like those to are what you need.
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Old September 18, 2011, 01:31 PM   #2
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I .... a XD 4" .45acp is my home defense gun or nightstand gun
If I was going to carry a pistol/revolver for defence, that would be the one I used in IDPA.

Shooting you defense pistol in competition, teaches you how to shoot it, plus builds confidence in the gun and your abillity to shoot it.
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Old September 18, 2011, 03:15 PM   #3
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I shoot IDPA 2-3 times per week and the reason you see most local folks shooting Glock is because that's what they carry and trust their lives to. Additionally, Glocks are reliable and have a simple manual of arms . . . no safeties, no double action first shot.

Your XD will need to be shot in the CDP division. My understanding is that Springfield registered the XD as a single action trigger which excludes it from the SSP division. ESP is for 9mm single actions while CDP is for the 45 single actions. Is the P6 a 10 shot capactity? If not, I would choose to comepete in SSP with your 226 to stay competitive. If you want to shoot what you carry, shoot the P6.

Don't expect to be competitive at first, it is a game after all. Learn the rules and make your shots count. Too many guys I see shoot too fast for their ability. Accuracy will win at the end of the day.

Bottomline, get out there and start having fun. You won't meet a nicer group of people than you will at the match. Bring 3 mags and enough mag pouches to keep two on your belt.

Last edited by XLtac; September 18, 2011 at 03:22 PM.
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Old September 18, 2011, 03:43 PM   #4
Thundergrunt
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Thanks for the comments, The P6 is an 8 shot mag but I have 2 10 rounders. I agree, I dont think im going to go out and lite up the range for awhile. but from a competition standpoint, I am curious as to why the HUGE gap between all the pistols. seeing just glocks and 1911's winning all the time, what am I missing in all my readings. Glocks, sigs, XD's and others are all grea guns, but what seperates those 2 so vastly over the others. Because eventually after I feel content at my skill set, and then going all out with my sig or XD vs a glock what makes the glock stand out in the competive aspect like you metioned here " Shoot your 226 to stay competitive" The glocks and 1911's are superior to Sigs, M&P, XD's and others?? I guess that is what I am saying.

Thunder
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Old September 18, 2011, 04:20 PM   #5
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For me, Glocks are easy to shoot and shoot fast out of the box. I think that the M&Ps will run with the Glocks any day, but they haven't been around long enough to have the numbers. As for 1911s, I'd rather shoot a Glock 21 in CDP than a 1911. A $500 1911 won't compete with a $500 Glock 21 . . . the 1911 will be down for malfunctions. XDs will run great in ESP, but I'd still shoot my Glock over an XD because it's what I'm used to.

When I said "shoot your 226 to stay competitive", it's the gun you have that allows you to shoot 10 round mags in SSP. I'm a revolver shooter so double action triggers don't bother me, but a Glock will be faster in my hands than a Sig. Maybe it's the polymer frame to help dampen recoil, I don't know. Sigs also sit too high in my hand and I've just never liked the feel of their grip. If you end up shooting SSP to be competitive, you'll end up with a Glock or a M&P . . . Why? I guess I'll have to think about that. For me, the only semi-auto pistol I will trust my life to is a Glock . . . because its reliable.
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Old September 18, 2011, 05:28 PM   #6
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Actually, the XD can run in CDP or ESP (single action trigger keeps it out of SSP.)

An XD will run with a Glock without any issues, as will an M&P. There are a lot of Glocks at big matches because the bigger Glocks-like the 34 and 35-are about as big as a gun can get and be IDPA legal, are reliable and accurate enough. There's also lots of Glock fans in the gun world, and that translates to IDPA.

But the new XDM 5.25, the 5" M&P and even the XD 5" Tactical will run with the 34s and 35s, and many seem to prefer them. If you like it, shoot it; there aren't many stock guns these days that will hold you back significantly in a local IDPA match.

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Old September 18, 2011, 06:14 PM   #7
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Ok great, I thought there was some kind of mechanical adavantages why you see glocks and 1911's always at the top vs XD's, Sigs and others or are there somethings that do. I shoot my XD 4" .45 with the TLR-1 pretty good as but understand I have to take it off to shoot. I have fired some glocks a 17,19,23,21 and 26. Of them I shot the G21 like it was a Piece of my body but was horrible with all the rest, still cant figure out why. Kinda same with Sig 220 felt like it was meant to be, but 228 229 not so good, 226 was real good as well as P6. So i can shoot a 226 in SSP but not XD only CDP with my XD right. Eagerly awaiting some more info.

Thunder
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Old September 18, 2011, 07:41 PM   #8
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I joined the IDPA a few months ago for I believe $40.00 / yr. With your membership they send you a great dvd video that explains just about everything. I've shot a couple gun club monthly IDPA matches since. The IDPA intent is to use what and how you carry. Well, that's not exactly true at the monthly club matches. Most everyone (including myself) shows up with their 5.11 tactical concealment vest for easy access to the firearm. I use a cover garment (long shirt / jacket) for EDC almost always. To me, a vest SCREAMS you're armed. I don't want the added attention. I also noticed many of the contestants were using kydex holsters owb for better draw. I joined to improve my skills and to enjoy myself basically. At my skill level of competition, there's only one way to go, and that's up! I shoot SSP in the novice division

But, it's fun and I do see myself improving and getting some good tips. Will be shooting the KY-TN regional match next month, and I hope I don't embarrass myself
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Old September 18, 2011, 07:49 PM   #9
Jim Watson
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You see a lot of 1911s because CDP and ESP were written for 1911s. Sure, other guns are allowed and if you work with them, you can do well. But if a single action auto is allowed as it is in CDP and ESP, then everything else will be compared with a 1911. It is just plain easy to get hits with a 1911.

Clone labs that think they know better than John Browning, Colt, and the US Army have hurt the reputation of the 1911 as a reliable weapon, but you don't have to put up with a finicky gun if you get a good one. My Colt 1991A1 9mm ESP runs just as well as the "modern" guns.

As far as the others go; Glock is popular because they are simple, sturdy, and inexpensive. They were the first of the general type on the market and have a head start on distribution, accessories, and techniques. But the S&W Plastic M&P is catching up fast. The XD would be as good except for the blunder by the importers in getting it accepted as a single action.

All of those share the advantage of a consistent trigger pull. It is not a real good trigger pull to those of us brought up on the crisp trigger "like breaking a thin glass rod" but it is the same all the time.
This is a distinct advantage over the DA/SA autos like Sig-Sauer and Beretta.
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Old September 18, 2011, 07:53 PM   #10
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Your XD in 45 will be competitive in CDP with a max of 8 rounds in each mag plus one in the chamber to start. An XD in 9mm would be ESP and allow for 10 in each mag plus the 1 in chamber. Your two sigs in 9mm shooting DA/SA or DAO would be SSP and allow for 10+1.

Personally, in the matches I run, I don't care if you shot your P6 with an 8 round mag plus the 2 10 round mags for reloads, but IDPA rule nazis might make you load each mag to 8 plus 1 in the chamber. Also, if you wanted to shoot your XD with light attached, I'd let you shoot it that way, but on a night stage I'd ask you to use a handheld light to keep it equal.

You DO NOT have to join the IDPA to start shooting. In Atlanta, our outdoor match "requires" that you join after 1 match but our indoor weekly matches don't require IDPA membership unless you want to get classified. Personally I prefer that weekly shooters join our local club since we're the club putting on 4-6 weekly matches monday thru thursday nights.
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Old September 18, 2011, 11:14 PM   #11
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Great Info all thank you, I am in So Cal (San Diego) I think i will try to join one of the clubs and get started. I think I will try both classes, CDP for my 4" .45 XD and SSP for my 226. Ill keep you posted.

Thunder
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Old September 19, 2011, 01:00 AM   #12
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So I have been reading some more and am now kind of discouraged alitte about IDPA matches, It seems all the material I have been cramming in the last week or so, my curiosites and all the question I have been asking, are making it seem that the IDPA matches are set up for real life scenarios. But it seems to me that those matches are a split camp of those who do them for the real world application and those who do it to be a gunner I think that would be a good way to put it. Which along with all of your inputs here and what I have been reasearching opens my eyes more to why the majority of Glocks and M&P's. I have not shot a match yet so I have to wait and see for myself but it kinda feels like its more a speed or winning aura, vs the intent of the defense, I guess that is why i feel kinda of discouredged. Anyway I probably didn't convey my thoughts correctly, but those of you experienced shooters who have been around probably know what i mean. Thanks again for everything so far.

Thunder
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Old September 19, 2011, 02:46 AM   #13
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I shoot IDPA on a semi-monthly basis. I think you will find that there are two main categories of shooters. There are the people there for the game, they shoot the guns that make them more competitive, these are mostly the Glock 34 types and the 1911 folks, they use the kydex holsters and mag pouches and shoot the stage to the rule book. The second type are the shooters that shoot what they carry, sometimes in the IWB holsters they use everyday, these are the guys that really don't stress about an extra shot or two, or maybe a procedural on a stage that didn't make sense. Neither of these groups are wrong, they both use the game to fulfill their needs. I am of the second group. I'll never finish in the top 10%, but I don't care, I just hope the IDPA practice gives me an edge if I ever have to do it for real.

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Old September 19, 2011, 06:43 AM   #14
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I shoot IDPA on a semi-monthly basis. I think you will find that there are two main categories of shooters. There are the people there for the game, they shoot the guns that make them more competitive, these are mostly the Glock 34 types and the 1911 folks, they use the kydex holsters and mag pouches and shoot the stage to the rule book. The second type are the shooters that shoot what they carry, sometimes in the IWB holsters they use everyday, these are the guys that really don't stress about an extra shot or two, or maybe a procedural on a stage that didn't make sense. Neither of these groups are wrong, they both use the game to fulfill their needs. I am of the second group. I'll never finish in the top 10%, but I don't care, I just hope the IDPA practice gives me an edge if I ever have to do it for real.

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Indeed. It might be good to think of it like golf. You have the weekend hacks who are out there to have fun. They have a relatively stock set of clubs, normal clothes and have a good time. Then you have the fanatics, the ones who play constantly and are concerned about improvements to a level the hacks don't even see. Both are fine.
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Old September 19, 2011, 11:03 AM   #15
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You will mostly see 1911s in CDP, as the rules are written to encourage 1911 use, but ESP and SSP see a lot of different guns. Glocks dominated five years ago, but not as much today. We see lots of M&Ps, and various CZs, along with the odd FN, HK, SIG, etc. You also see medium-bore single action guns in ESP, such as the Hi-Power, and those CZs starting cocked 'n' locked. Most people prefer a single, consistent trigger pull, so I'd say the XD would be preferable to the SIGs for competition, though we have a contingent of SIG shooters locally who always did and do very well.
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Old September 19, 2011, 11:50 AM   #16
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Thunder, I originally answered your questions based on the rulebook. Now I'm gonna tell you to get out there and do it. Every club will be different but you have to understand that IDPA is not training. I consider the matches we run a practical application of skills I've already developed through other sources. IDPA stresses courses of fire where you are not standing out in the open shooting at 20 target and then dumping your half loaded magazine while you run to another shooting position . . . that would be IPSC. Courses we run stress real world skills like shooting while seated in your car. It won't teach you how to shoot from your car but the point is that you've done it and know what it feels like. We run blind stages where you are given only minimal instruction and told to solve it the way you would in real life. We run night stages where you need to use your flashlight and can see for yourself what technique works for you and what doesn't. The point of our course design is to say you've done something that you can't do standing in a booth at the range shooting at a single static target.

Bottomline, just get out there and do it before forming any expectations. Here is a promotional video from our club to give you an idea of some stuff we do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbhB1Mc3VAU
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Old September 19, 2011, 10:18 PM   #17
Thundergrunt
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XLTAC

I totally agree with you sir!! And that is what I expected and Is why that has drawn me to that type of discipline. But my hesitancy was cleared up because in the above posts some confirmend what i was reading and thru videos, some do IDPA for real world application and some do it to win trophies and such that just kinda dampens the spirt of what it is designed for in my personal opinion i'm in it for the first way that is all. Great video to thank you.

Thunder

Last edited by Thundergrunt; September 19, 2011 at 10:27 PM.
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Old September 20, 2011, 08:09 AM   #18
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Your XD will need to be shot in the CDP division
It is the shooters choice here as far as division. He can shoot in ESP division where the XD's fall into. Just because its 45 acp does not automatically place it in CDP. 1911's all fall into CDP in 45 acp. If he choses CDP he is limited to 8 rounds in the magazine. Why when he can shoot ESP and have 10 rounds per magazine.

Quote:
Thunder, I originally answered your questions based on the rulebook.
Yep but unfortunately incorrectly. I personally have shot my XD 45 acp in the ESP division
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Old September 20, 2011, 08:30 AM   #19
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Being a "sportsman" most of the time, I have worked with light loaded .45s in ESP. The recoil is mild and the great big holes will occasionally pick up an extra point. I have some custom made 9 round Box compliant single stack magazines for the 1911 and a STI 2011 framed gun with double column 10+1 magazines.

I can't claim to have originated the idea, at the first or second Nationals, I saw a S&W rep shooting a 4516 with factory midrange match ammo. No doubt company furnished.
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Old September 20, 2011, 08:51 AM   #20
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I've shot USPSA and IDPA and this is my take on IDPA. Aside from the different rules, the gun doesn't really matter, it's the shooter behind the gun. Most shooters are men and a few females periodically. The match involves (the) guys competing to get the best score in front of their fellow shooters. The "testosterone" flies. Some are very fast, but put holes everywhere. Others are slower, more precise in their movements and score better. After a few matches you'll see the competitors, the shooters, and those just there to get away from the wife for a few hours. It's a mental game. If you are capable of the slowing the game down in your mind, follow the stage rules, and shooting YOUR preferred handgun to the best of your ability, you'll have fun. Don't be afraid to try different handguns. You'll discover which suits you best for IDPA. If you're curious, I tried my tricked out (for USPSA) XD9 Tactical and my stock 9mm Sig P229. After a couple matches using each gun, I found my Sig worked best for me. Everyone is different, don't feel you have to be a part of the Glock crowd, etc.
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Old September 20, 2011, 12:26 PM   #21
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Hey Don, Just because you can shoot a 45 in ESP or SSP doesn't mean, based on the gamer rulebook, you should. Your 45 will put you at a competitive disadvantage in any division shooting 9mm. The lowest power factor I can get out of my 45 handloaded <...light loads...> is about 145K.

Last edited by Art Eatman; September 20, 2011 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Unnecessary snark.
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Old September 20, 2011, 01:44 PM   #22
Jim Watson
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You are right. I don't care what somebody says I SHOULD do, I care what the rules allow me to do. All the pious platitudes of Priniciples and Purpose in the front of the rule book are not enforceable.

Nine times out of ten, I am shooting for fun and score.
I occasionally shoot a carry weapon for the practice but I do not make a big hairy thing out of it and do not think I am More Tactical Than Thou for it.
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Old September 20, 2011, 02:53 PM   #23
XLtac
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I don't care what somebody says I should do either which is why, with my SIXTH post, I will bid this conversation goodbye. Gonna go shoot a match with my 5 shot snubby and tell folks shooting their XD45 for their first time that they might want to write down CDP on their scoresheet since ESP will be full of 9mm guys running add-on magwells and equal to or lighter than steel guiderods while they sandbag their classification so they can win a plaque in their next sanctioned match.
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Old September 20, 2011, 03:13 PM   #24
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Sandbaggers are written about on the internet a lot more than they are seen on the range. It just isn't worth it. In any case it will only work for so long. Win that plaque in a sanctioned match - which is about where you have to go to win one, few club shoots give physical prizes - and you will be promoted to the next higher class.
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Old September 20, 2011, 03:19 PM   #25
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making it seem that the IDPA matches are set up for real life scenarios.
IDPA is as real life as Call of Duty or any of the other shooter games people play on their XBox.

IDPA is does not train you for real life scenarios, it trains you to shoot card board targets that will never shoot back at you.

If you want training, go to a real shooting class taught by a reputable instructor and practice what they tell you. If you want to be the fastest cardboard blaster around, shoot IDPA every week.

I don't have anything against practical pistol matches. I think they are a lot of fun, but they are a game. No crack-head-stickup-kid will ever have you stand in a square painted on the ground and hold up a buzzer and ask "Shooter ready?"
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