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Old September 16, 2011, 08:29 PM   #1
snuffy
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Deep curl speer-expansion test

Last month a thread was started about deep curl bullets. I said I'd try some in my expansion testing tubes. Well here's the first one, a 308 caliber 165 grain from a 30-06. Rifle used is older than I am,(66 in jan), a 03-A3 springfield.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=608729

Here's a few pics;





Notice how the lead has clung to the inside of the jacket. That's what meant by "BONDING". There can be no doubt that the deep curl bullet is truly bonded.







Penetration was completely through an out the end of the 10 inches of the expansion medium, a soft wax. The guys at the bullet test tube website say that a standard rifle size test tube will stop a standard caliber like the -06. Well, I had to devise a backup plan. I made a coupler to attach to the back of the test tube, another section of 6" tube stuffed with rags. The rags are tough for a bullet to penetrate, especially one that's fully expanded and slowed way down. The bullet was just inside the first layer of cloth, an old "T" shirt.

http://www.thebullettesttube.com/

What was the results? Since this was my first time using this medium, I can't say I was impressed with the wound channel. It is quite narrow. The expanded bullet weighs out at 122.6 grains. Meaning it lost 42.4 grains. The wound track shows shards of lead which could be left behind in meat. The expanded slug is .650 across it's widest point.

Penetration was good. I would say bordering on excellent. But I may find out that all standard rifle bullets will go all the way through the test tube. I also tested a .223 60 grain nosler partition. That's a subject for another thread, coming soon. I also have several other "hunting weights" to test for .223.

Velocity was an estimated 2650, the tube was at 25 yards. Why not 100? Because the springfield has irons on it, these tired old eyes can't shoot irons that far out.
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Old September 16, 2011, 11:36 PM   #2
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Nice going snuffy, keep up the good work and keep us posted.

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Old September 17, 2011, 07:15 AM   #3
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Thank you sir . I'm a Speer guy and I was quite upset when I heard they were scrapping the Hot-Core process in favor of the new Deep Curl design . Looks like maybe my fears are unfounded . I've been waiting for them to show up on my dealers shelves , so I could buy some and give them a try .
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Old September 17, 2011, 07:31 AM   #4
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Thank you sir . I'm a Speer guy and I was quite upset when I heard they were scrapping the Hot-Core process in favor of the new Deep Curl design . Looks like maybe my fears are unfounded . I've been waiting for them to show up on my dealers shelves , so I could buy some and give them a try .
When Speer Hot Cores first came out, out of curiosity to see how they bonded to the jacket, I cut a couple in half length-wise starting at the tip, with a jack knife and a hammer. When the bullets were halved, the lead cores just fell out. "Bonded" my foot. It was just a "mechanical" (core held in jacket by the closed top of the jacket), lock despite the hype from speer. I do not know if they improved after that, I stopped using any Speer bullet when I noticed that there was a least one, sometimes two, faulty (cores cut short, or deformed bullets), bullets in each box of Speer pistol bullets I bought. I figured that if they were that sloppy with pistol bullets, and their "Hot Core" rifle bullets were mostly baloney, there could be a problem with all their products. That was in the middle 60's though, they may have improved their products. I switched to Hornady for all my hand loading of hunting bullets.
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Old September 17, 2011, 09:21 AM   #5
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Thanks guys.

Old sap, I was skeptical about the Fusion/deepcurl hype, because like Dahermit, I had experienced hot core separations in the field, on normal whitetail shots.

Dahermit, like I said above, I hit a doe at about 100 yards, the core went through, the jacket was just under the skin on a broad side shot. .280 @ about 2600. The 145 boat tail shot real nice, can't complain too much, she dropped where she stood.

The Speer hot core was nothing more that molten lead poured into a skived copper jacket, then formed to a point. Supposedly that gave a tighter fit to the core. No better than the normal process of a lead core swaged with the jacket.

I have a few fusion 165 grainers loaded in some Federal 300 WSM's a buddy gave me. I'm going to pull them, load 'em in the 06 for another test, to see if they're the same as the deep curl. From what I've been able to find out, they're made by the same process, but the fusion is a boat tail. Real easy to find out, just pull 'em. Too early right now, the coffee hasn't kicked in yet.
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Old September 17, 2011, 05:39 PM   #6
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Hot Core bullets were never marketed as a bonded bullet ! It was just Verns way of saying that his company did things differently . Speer was pouring their cores into their bullets , while everyone else was swaging theirs . I have never had a Speer bullet come apart , at least none that I've recovered . Their Grand Slam is a bonded bullet and so is the TBBC !
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Old September 17, 2011, 06:41 PM   #7
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Hot Core bullets were never marketed as a bonded bullet ! It was just Verns way of saying that his company did things differently . Speer was pouring their cores into their bullets , while everyone else was swaging theirs .
It was in the sixties so my memory may not be exact, but seems to me that they tactfully "implied" that due to the hot-core process, the cores would not separate. But, I do not remember if they claimed they were bonded, but if not, they sure tried to leave that impression.
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Old September 17, 2011, 06:49 PM   #8
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Dahermit, like I said above, I hit a doe at about 100 yards, the core went through, the jacket was just under the skin on a broad side shot. .280 @ about 2600. The 145 boat tail shot real nice, can't complain too much, she dropped where she stood.
That was the same effect that occurred shooting deer with my 6MM Remington and an 87 grain Hornady bullet, which was a varmint bullet (no channelier). My theory was that a deer having only a thin muscle and rib barrier to protect the vital organs, a varmint bullet would "blow up" and shower the heart, lungs, and liver with small metal fragments producing a quick kill. However, in actual practice (many deer), the jacket would peel off and the core would exit the far side just like you described producing a very fast kill. So, my theory was wrong but the results were so good anyway, that I continued using that load for deer for quite awhile with zero negative issues. In short, the jacket and core did not need to stay together for good results.
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Old September 17, 2011, 08:57 PM   #9
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It was in the sixties so my memory may not be exact, but seems to me that they tactfully "implied" that due to the hot-core process, the cores would not separate...
Speer did not always use the "HotCore" process. In their 1962 manual (copyright 1961) they clearly state they used lead wire and core swaging machines. By the 1970 manual they state they started producing "HotCore" bullets sometime in 1961. This is an exact quote:

"Unlike partition-type bullets which generally shed their forward core, the Speer core and jacket stay together. Weight loss is rarely over 15%, even with full expansion."

BTW I have used HotCore bullets extensively and liked them a lot. Perfect, heck no. Very good hunting bullets, hell yes. But there are better today, perhaps including the DeepCurl.



.
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Old September 17, 2011, 10:32 PM   #10
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What's interesting about the Deep-Curl, is that it's a plated bullet.

Where most companies use proprietary processes (chemicals and heat applications) to bond a traditional core to a traditional jacket, for a bonded bullet; Speer uses electro-plating processes to build the jacket around a pre-formed core.
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Old September 18, 2011, 01:26 AM   #11
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I shoot a lot of plated pistol bullets(Berrys and Rainier) into steel plates,and even when shot out of a 357Sig round at 1400fps the bullet basically splatters into pieces and the flat lead pieces still have copper adheared to it, so plating is a great way to "bond" the jacket.
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Old September 19, 2011, 04:19 AM   #12
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Nice test there Snuffy. I loaded the 120gr Speer HC in my 25-06 years ago and while it was extremely accurate, it left quite a bit more trimming to be done, than I liked, even on shots out past 200yds. I switched over to the 115gr Partition and left well enough alone.

I now have a 28" barreled 25-06 AI for which I chose to use the heavier 120gr bullets. So far the standard ol CL has shown to be as accurate as anything else I have tried in it out to 300yds. Results on one big feral boar showed it will hold together even starting out at 3350fps and impacting at over 3000fps into the gristled shoulder plate, then boring through both shoulder blades.

I have yet to put them to task on a deer, but doubt seriously they would not preform admirably.

Might have to give those Deep Curls a try and see how they shoot as well.
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Old September 19, 2011, 06:52 AM   #13
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I also tested a .223 60 grain nosler partition. That's a subject for another thread, coming soon. I also have several other "hunting weights" to test for .223.
I would be interested in seeing those results. You may have already tried them, but if not I would suggest the Trophy Bonded and the Barnes X.
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Old September 19, 2011, 11:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
I also tested a .223 60 grain nosler partition. That's a subject for another thread, coming soon. I also have several other "hunting weights" to test for .223.
I would be interested in seeing those results. You may have already tried them, but if not I would suggest the Trophy Bonded and the Barnes X.
Okay, here's the ONLY one I've tested so far, the 60 partition. I also have 70 gr. speer, 70 gr. Berger VLD, and the 64 gr. WW power point. I decided to do this test because of a thread with a question something like this, "is the .223 capable of killing a deer?" Of course the argument started right away, varying from "I do it all the time" TO "are you crazy, it'll bounce off to only wound the deer!"

I know better, here in WI we CAN use them, unlike some other states. They're used with great success, a lot of dead deer! Mostly AR-15 in .223.







I expected to see the nose of the partition to be completely gone, but there was a tiny part of the nose core left on the web of the partition. It popped right off after I recovered the bullet. The remaining/retained weight was 50.3 grains. Apparently Nosler only puts about a ten grain very shallow front core in their .223 partition. Makes sense to me, that gives the jacket and remaining base more weight to penetrate deeper.

The penetration was full length of the medium, the bullet came to rest in the rags in the extension tube. It did not penetrate the "T" shirt, was just laying on the bottom of the mailing tube. The wound cavity was no bigger than the deep curl '06. As I said, I have no basis to be able to read the wound cavities yet, As I do more testing, I will be able to say more about it.

I did an extensive search on Google, using "bullet test tube" for the search. It appears the outfit Ballistic Technology is out of business. They're the ones behind the Bullet Test Tube. There's a lot of people that have bought into the idea, but apparently not enough to keep the business going. With the current business climate, it's not hard to figure out. Somebody that's barley hanging on or UN-employed is NOT going to spend money on this product.

I wanted to try the sierra 65 game king. However I can't locate any. Midway has them listed but, out of stock, no back order. That means Sierra has none and no plans on making any.

Here's a side shot of the little cap of lead that was on top of the partition web.

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Last edited by snuffy; September 19, 2011 at 11:17 AM.
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Old September 19, 2011, 04:57 PM   #15
Mike / Tx
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I decided to do this test because of a thread with a question something like this, "is the .223 capable of killing a deer?" Of course the argument started right away, varying from "I do it all the time" TO "are you crazy, it'll bounce off to only wound the deer!"
Yep kind of like when my wife was hinting about what she wanted for our upcoming anniversary.

She said, "I want something shiny that goes from 0 to 150 in
about 3 seconds."

I bought her a bathroom scale.

And then the fight started......
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Old September 19, 2011, 09:35 PM   #16
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I appreciate your trouble, Snuffy. Very worthwhile data. Thanks.

What about testing the pistol versions....I think they used to call them "Gold Dots"? I have to admit....Deep Curl is a lot more descriptive!
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Old September 20, 2011, 12:04 AM   #17
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What about testing the pistol versions....I think they used to call them "Gold Dots"?
I'd love to, but the gold dots are no longer available. Most suppliers have them listed, but no backorders. Now the handgun deep curls are taking a long time to get to the distributors. None available that I could find. The rifle bullets are trickling out some, just the most popular calibers first, then the rest will fill in.

I do have a few gold dots in 40 S&W. Got them several years ago, kind of hung onto them in case WI could some day get CCW. Well, in Nov. we will have it! I could test one, but it would just show what they could do. Since they're being fazed out, I'll wait until the deep curls become available.

I have to be very selective which bullet I test because it takes so long to recycle the test tube. The big ones take 4 hours to melt, then they take 24 hours to cool.

Apparently ballistic technology, the people who sold/invented the test tubes are belly up. So I had to find a source for mailing tubes with the correct wall thickness and inside diameter to be able to re-use the test medium. 150 bucks later, I have enough of the 6" and 3" tubes to last awhile.
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Old September 20, 2011, 01:19 AM   #18
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I still have a box of 230gr. .45's (Gold Dot bullets). When you find some Deep Curls, we will have to compare.
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Old September 20, 2011, 07:44 AM   #19
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Thanks for the 223 info. That's about what I expected from my tests of it with wet phone books. I played with it before Nosler made a 22 partition, but tried the Trophy Bonded and the Barnes X (the ones I used had the blue coating, before they made the grooved version) The TB opened up beautifully, retained about 95 percent of their weight, but didn't penetrate as well as the X bullet.

The 223 is at the lower limit of power for deer, but both worked OK on small deer, with exit wounds on broadside shots.
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Old September 20, 2011, 10:49 AM   #20
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I was interested in the Deep Curl for my 44 mag revolver .Same design as the Gold Dot but heavier construction. Speer doesn't seem to market them well.
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