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Old September 28, 2011, 01:54 PM   #26
Aguila Blanca
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The "gotcha" that has not yet been discussed is that the BATFE's own FAQ site tells us that people can be legal residents of more than one state. If you live in, say, NY and also OWN a vacation residence in FL, VT, CO or wherever, according to the BATFE you are a resident of the vacation state during those periods when you are living in that house. As a resident, the BATFE says you can buy guns there just like any other resident.

The problem, of course, is that the same BATFE does not tell FFLs how to deal with that. Asking for a drivers license isn't the answer, because it's difficult or impossible to obtain a driver's license from multiple states.
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Old September 29, 2011, 04:05 AM   #27
natman
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It's true, the ATF does allow for multiple states of residence. OTOH, they require a government issued photo ID to prove it and, as you noted, it's difficult to get more than one of those.
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Old September 29, 2011, 08:07 PM   #28
RamItOne
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Florida non resident ccw does not list any address and is not valid in obtaining a pistol in the state of Florida without having a valid Florida license.
Now what I'm not 100% on is I always hear/read Florida drivers license, not Florida ID.

As for one of the posters claiming they are a snow bird and buy pistols down here they either have a Florida ID, a gun shop that doesn't know the law or haven't actualy bought a pistol from a gun shop. Private party is a different story.
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Old September 30, 2011, 04:38 AM   #29
natman
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Quote:
Now what I'm not 100% on is I always hear/read Florida drivers license, not Florida ID.
Using a driver's license for ID is the usual way, but not everyone drives, so most states issue photo ID cards that are acceptable for firearms purchases. They just don't allow you to drive.
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Old October 1, 2011, 06:39 AM   #30
alland
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According to federal law snow birds who maintain a residence in Florida as well as in another state may buy firearms including hanguns while they are in Florida. Federal law does not require a photo ID to establish residency. A government issued Photo ID is required by law to prove identity. Residency may be established by property tax bill, utility bills or lease agreement. Unfortunately BATFE is not very helpfull in defining what actually is legal for determining residency.

I was not able to find any Florida law that would prevent an FFL from selling a handgun to a snow bird with an out of state photo ID.
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Old October 1, 2011, 11:35 AM   #31
natman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alland
According to federal law snow birds who maintain a residence in Florida as well as in another state may buy firearms including hanguns while they are in Florida. Federal law does not require a photo ID to establish residency. A government issued Photo ID is required by law to prove identity. Residency may be established by property tax bill, utility bills or lease agreement. Unfortunately BATFE is not very helpfull in defining what actually is legal for determining residency.
Well, it turns out that you can mix and match, but you do have to dig a bit to find that out from BATF (and there are places, in addition to the 4473, where it says must have photo ID). However with a bit of digging I uncovered this:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...1-volume-4.pdf

Quote:
It is ATF's position that a combination of documents may be used to satisfy the Brady Act's requirement for an identification document. The prospective transferee must present at least one valid document that meets the statutory definition of an identification document; i.e., it must bear the transferee's name and photograph, it must have been issued by a governmental entity, and it must be of a type intended or commonly accepted for identification purposes. ATF recognizes, however, that some valid government-issued identification documents do not include the bearer's current residence address. Such an identification document may be supplemented with another valid government-issued document that contains the necessary information.

Thus, for example, a licensee may accept a valid driver's license that accurately reflects the purchaser's name, date of birth, and photograph, along with a vehicle registration issued by the State indicating the transferee's current address.
So the law (the Brady Bill) requires photo ID, but ATF has recognized the problem of multi-state residents and allows you to supplement your photo ID with other documents to establish residency in a state other than the one that issued your photo ID.

As a practical matter I can see an FFL getting uncomfortable with selling to someone with an out-of state ID supplemented by a vehicle registration.
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Old October 1, 2011, 01:22 PM   #32
alland
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Natman you are correct about some FFLs being uneasy with dual residency.

The secondary ID could not be the lease agreement that I mentioned. Drivers license, property tax bill, or voter registration should work. A utility bill would only work if the utility was government owned. This seems strange since utility bills are specifically mentioned in the case of resident aliens to establish the 90 day residency requirement.
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Old October 1, 2011, 03:24 PM   #33
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamItOne
Florida non resident ccw does not list any address and is not valid in obtaining a pistol in the state of Florida without having a valid Florida license.
Mine must be defective, then -- my address is listed directly under my name on the front of the license.
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Old October 1, 2011, 03:56 PM   #34
Chaz88
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Quote:
I have a Fl address on my DL, but told the merchant my current mailing address. I do not have family in Fl, but could use a friends address if necessary. If the Fl CCW has an address on it (will find out when it arrives in the mail today or tomorrow) it will show an out of state address.
It sounds to me like the dealer is confused. When transferred on official change of station orders you are basically a resident of two states, for most things. For example for many years I had a Colorado, my legal state of residence and home of record when I joined the Navy, license with an address for whatever state I lived in at the time. When in Colorado I used it to buy guns and when in my duty state I used my change of station orders. If questioned about the mailing and state address not matching, my Navy ID and a copy of my orders smoothed things over. Did the same thing after I became a Florida resident, and maintained that for tax purposes, but was stationed in Oklahoma.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

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Old October 1, 2011, 08:20 PM   #35
alland
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The older Florida CWL have your adrress on them. The current ones do not have an address.
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Old October 1, 2011, 09:58 PM   #36
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz88
It sounds to me like the dealer is confused. When transferred on official change of station orders you are basically a resident of two states, for most things.
Basically incorrect.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unli...tate-residency

Scroll down to:

Quote:
Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]
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Old October 1, 2011, 10:17 PM   #37
Chaz88
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I stand corrected. Either that law has been broken by many people in the DOD, including me, or it was interpreted differently at the time.

But this statement is still correct
Quote:
When transferred on official change of station orders you are basically a resident of two states, for most things.
There are many exceptions made for people on permanent change of station orders that give them the equivalent privileges as a resident, even when they maintain a different state as there state of residence and do not have a home there.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
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Old October 1, 2011, 10:22 PM   #38
MLeake
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I'm curious about the BATFE interpretation of residence vs Home of Record, and am not sure it's accurate. As a Florida resident while on active duty, I didn't have to pay state income tax to Maine or Hawaii, for example; for all legal purposes, I was still considered a Florida resident.

So, either the law has changed (which I doubt), or ATF is arbitrarily making up rules (which I am more likely to suspect).
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Old October 1, 2011, 10:35 PM   #39
Chaz88
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Quote:
I'm curious about the BATFE interpretation of residence vs Home of Record, and am not sure it's accurate. As a Florida resident while on active duty, I didn't have to pay state income tax to Maine or Hawaii, for example; for all legal purposes, I was still considered a Florida resident.
That is my experience also. I spent my last year and a half before retiring in Oklahoma. I had no intention of becoming a permanent resident of Oklahoma and maintained my Florida residency. Because I was on change of station orders I saved a lot of money registering vehicles as an Oklahoma resident, bought guns in Oklahoma, and could hunt and fish as a resident in both states.

EDIT: Now that I think about it more I was questioned when still a resident of Colorado. I was home on leave and wanted to buy a hand gun but had an out of state address on my DL. The shop owner called whomever they ask such questions of and was told he could sell it to me. They did not question my Florida DL in Oklahoma, just needed a copy of my orders.
__________________
Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.

Last edited by Chaz88; October 1, 2011 at 10:47 PM.
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Old October 2, 2011, 02:14 PM   #40
cow0man
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Just received my CCW last week. There is no address listed on it.
As far as military residency is concerned, I have not had any issues with purchasing in TX, Va, or Wa. I have just presented a copy of my orders transferring me to that state.
It is very possible the FFL in Fl was confused.
The next trip to Fl, I might renew my drivers license as it is about 3 years past the expiration date.
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