The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old October 18, 2011, 10:32 AM   #76
FAS1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 260
Quote:
Let me try this one more time.

1) If myself, my loved ones, or my friends are threatened with violence, I will use whatever means is available to protect them.

2) I will not shoot, to wound or kill, someone stealing my TV. To me it simply is not worth the legal issues that I would have to deal with in my state. We are NOT a Castle Doctrine state, force can only be used as necessasry to stop the threat. You see it would be damn hard to prove a physical threat if I shot a guy in the back as he headed out my door with my tv.

3) I am not saying i wouldn't confront the guy, with my gun in hand, tell him to put the tv down and get down on the floor. I won't shoot him if he does not comply.

Is that clear enough? It isn't about stupid, nonsensical "gentle rape" scenarios. It's not about not defending my family. It's about MY idea that property is not worth killing someone over. It is that simple.

Do as you wish. I most certainly will.
I'm glad I live in TX and if someone is in my home at night I will not wait to determine if he has a TV, knife, or gun in his hands. It's all irrelevant to me. He is in my home! By the way, that applies to your car, hotel, tent, wherever is your "Castle" is at that time.
__________________
Glenn

FAS1 SAFE, LLC
FAS1 is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 10:44 AM   #77
hartlock
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2010
Location: lockhart, texas
Posts: 161
Exactly, Fas1. Guys that post "well, I wouldnt shoot him for
stealing my tv, etc" probably in a real situation wouldnt shoot
ANYONE! More than likely, he would freeze up and get shot
with his own gun. You start making up rules to when and where
you are gonna shoot someone THAT IS IN YOUR HOUSE, you are
already in a world of hurt, in my opinion!
hartlock is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 11:06 AM   #78
FAS1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 260
Hartlock,

After seeing your location I am suddenly in the mood for BBQ
__________________
Glenn

FAS1 SAFE, LLC
FAS1 is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 11:22 AM   #79
hartlock
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2010
Location: lockhart, texas
Posts: 161
Its good, too! come on down, anytime!
hartlock is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 11:42 AM   #80
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 1,701
There is also always the possibility that the perp is armed. Shoot, he just stole my ginsu knives. I keep pistols in my living room, a rifle in my closet, and my basement has a standard gun case with glass front.

No, I don't call 911 every time I hear a bump in the night. I go and investigate. Under those circumstances, an armed perp, especially if he is holding one of my loaded home defense weapons, will be in full rigor mortis before he leaves the place. The way my house is built, it would be simple suicide to go from floor to floor, knowing that there is an intruder. The beauty of that is that the intruder will also go bacon side up if he tries to invade a different floor.

So, as I mentioned before, IF I HAVE A CONFIRMED HOME INVASION, I will retreat as possible. I already have. My family will be upstairs. Anywhere else, well, we're already boxed in if they even make it through the front door and I've no choice but use force, armed or not. I'm not taking any risks of being attacked by a NOT VISIBLY ARMED intruder.

The real question. I'm upstairs. I've called 911. I've yelled that the cops are on the way, and get out. I'm going to be standing at the top of those stairs, and if a person so much as peeks around the corner, I will fire. I have retreated, and been pursued, and have no choices left.

That's how it works for me. Any other person should be in a similar situation and probably have a similar plan. The first part of that plan, though, is a steel door and a deep set deadbolt.
briandg is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 12:27 PM   #81
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,921
Quote:
Posted by FAS1: I'm glad I live in TX and if someone is in my home at night I will not wait to determine if he has a TV, knife, or gun in his hands. It's all irrelevant to me. He is in my home! By the way, that applies to your car, hotel, tent, wherever is your "Castle" is at that time.
Don't forget the qualifiers: (1) "unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force" and (2) "the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment".
OldMarksman is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 12:40 PM   #82
nice shot
Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2011
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 26
hesitation

I think hesitation is human nature in a scenario like this. I think that given his distance (not much) and the time of day (he just woke up) and the situation itself (punk kids), he probably did the best that anyone could hope for.

On the other hand, had those kids robbed a house from someone who had just gotten off work, or maybe a night owl of a man. . . wow. 4 funerals would be going on for sure.

As far as the castle doctrine goes, I've never heard of a case where a home owner met the guidelines of the doctrine and was taken to civil court and sued. That being said. . . never heard of one involving kids.

If you look hard enough you can find old Texas laws from the Republic that specifically state you can shoot a man for stealing your horse, being on your property after dark (cattle rustlers), and another one about stealing. . . somethign about if a thief takes property from you that you can use deadly force to stop him (while in progress).

That being said, just because you can shoot someone legally, doesnt mean its always what NEEDS to be done. I've been in plenty of fights. Pull out a gun, fights over, and thank God I've never had to shoot someone yet. The last two fights were pretty ruff. . . and quick. . . too quick for a gun for whatever thats worth. So for safety's sake, retreat as possible, stay in relatively good shape, learn some defensive techniques as well as practicing with your firearm.
nice shot is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 12:41 PM   #83
EddieDaGreat
Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2010
Location: Dallas tx
Posts: 73
Texas gives home owners $500 dollars and a gift certificate to bass pro shop for every thief they shoot in their property.. They call it a reward for making the neighborhood safer.. And if they die you also get a pair of free tickets for the state fair... You gotta love texas... Lol..lol..
__________________
my fear was thrown along with my last diaper..
EddieDaGreat is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 01:20 PM   #84
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,921
Quote:
Posted by hartlock: If the guys, teenagers, or whatever age they are, come into my house at 2:30 am, they are getting shot! Period!
Well, in Texas, if you have reason to believe that someone entered your home unlawfully and with force, the law provided you with a presumption that deadly force is justified.

That presumption is rebuttable. Should the forensic evidence indicate that they entered without force, or if they had been departing (perhaps empty handed, if in Texas), the homeowner would be in a world of hurt.

And should that happen, what more damaging evidence could a prosecutor ask for than a public posting indicating that the actor was predisposed to shoot someone?

Quote:
I worked hard for what I have, whether its a tv set, sterio, whatever! Its in my house, and its MINE! Would I shoot some goofy kids that are in my house, and stealing my stuff? YOU BET I WOULD! I cant understand some of the ninnys that come on forums, talk about burglars breaking into their houses, at NIGHT, and then say "Well, I just couldnt bring myself to shoot that kid, just because he was stealing my tv!" ... Geeezzzz!
I'm sure that Ray Lemes of San Antonio worked hard for what he had, and though he was acquitted of murder, he endured four years of investigation and two murder trials, and reportedly has nothing left.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 01:34 PM   #85
Stressfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,497
Quote:
I'm sure that Ray Lemes of San Antonio worked hard for what he had, and though he was acquitted of murder, he endured four years of investigation and two murder trials, and reportedly has nothing left.
This is the part where someone is supposed to indignantly ask if he would prefer to be dead.

Quote:
Should the forensic evidence indicate that they entered without force
Unlocked door?

Depends on the laws in your state, but a 2 second Google search of the terms "Burglar sues for injury" turns up an awful lot of articles and forum topics. About the same for "homeowner charged after shooting"
__________________
"The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott
Stressfire is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 01:44 PM   #86
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
fas1 and hartlock, glad to know we have two big, brave guys like you. We could use you over here in Afghanistan...

Seriously, though, from one of those guys you seem to think just couldn't pull the trigger... what if that figure in the dark turns out to be the thirteen or fourteen year old kid from the house next door, trying to steal your XBox? Are you really going to feel good about shooting him? I mean, he was a thief and all...

Or what if he's one of your drunk buddies, who just had a fight with his wife, and decided to stay at your place? (That one has happened to more than one person.) Are you going to smile the next day, when you look in the mirror, thinking "Too bad my friend was such an idiot, but I'm good," ?

As far as bravery, one could argue that it takes more bravery to wait long enough to identify the target and his intentions, than to shoot the intruder on sight. I have a lot of respect for US door-kickers, who are asked to do exactly that. Or do you think we've minimized casualties to women and children over the years because our guys have just shot everybody they encounter?

Similarly, for all we read of SWAT teams hitting the wrong address, how often as a percentage of raids do we read about them shooting people who weren't shooting at them? It stands out, when it happens, because it normally doesn't happen.

Personally, I think some of the louder mouths in here are compensating for some kind of lack.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 02:02 PM   #87
Stressfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,497
Aren't you supposed to know your target...etc...etc?

As one who has looked at the business end of his future FiL's GP100 4", I can say that its generally a good idea to look before pulling the trigger.

Girlfriend (now fiancee) lived with her parents at the time. I had a key. I stopped over after work but before she or her mom got home. Her dad was sleeping on the couch and when I grabbed a beer out of the fridge the bottle clanking woke him up.

He was very stealthy for a disabled 70 year old. I was just standing up from the fridge when I heard the hammer cock and felt the front sight on my right earlobe.

Ended well as he figured out it was me, but could have been bad. Ever since them I close the front door loudly and stomp my feet on the way in while calling out for him if he's the only one home.
__________________
"The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott
Stressfire is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 04:15 PM   #88
youngunz4life
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2010
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,877
Quote:
I'm glad I live in TX and if someone is in my home at night I will not wait to determine if he has a TV, knife, or gun in his hands. It's all irrelevant to me. He is in my home! By the way, that applies to your car, hotel, tent, wherever is your "Castle" is at that time.
I concur w/this and the post after. Be careful what you wish for socialanarchist because when you're determining what's up w/your boobtube someone might be in the process of about to rearrange your &*%. I don't think I would be comfortable trying to hold the guy either; if he is leaving then he is leaving in my opinion. Once my home is entered, all bets are off. I'm not going to be going downstairs to confront someone anyways, but the cops will be en route & the perps willnoit be able to reach our location(depending on their point of entry+our alertness).
__________________
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864
youngunz4life is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 04:25 PM   #89
hartlock
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2010
Location: lockhart, texas
Posts: 161
Here we go! Now, we got MLEAKE tellin us that we are
bloodthirsty killers, just shooting at stuff in the dark, and
has to put in questions about our male anatomy, too! Get
a grip, sir! You do what you want in your house, I will do
what needs to be done in mine, if thats ok with you, and
even if it aint ok! I never said anything bout shooting blindly in the
dark, and neither did anyone else! Can you read? Im just
wondering! And if you are really in Afghanistan, thank you
for your service. Im not trying to be some hero, or whatever,
just gonna protect what I own and my loved ones! I think
you need to chill a little and maybe take a course in reading
comprehension!
hartlock is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 04:32 PM   #90
hartlock
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2010
Location: lockhart, texas
Posts: 161
And one more thing, since YOU brought it up, when I was a kid,
cops came up to the door, asked if so and so were there, and
if they were, they were asked to come outside, and they arrested
them! Now, those big brave door-knockers, as you call them,
come in the middle of the night, with body armor, masks on their
faces, and kick down the doors! Yeah, THATS a real improvement!
hartlock is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 04:44 PM   #91
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Well, let's see, hartlock...

fas1 said,
Quote:
if someone is in my home at night I will not wait to determine if he has a TV, knife, or gun in his hands. It's all irrelevant to me.
and hartlock said,
Quote:
You start making up rules to when and where
you are gonna shoot someone THAT IS IN YOUR HOUSE, you are
already in a world of hurt, in my opinion!
That sounds kind of like you two are saying anybody in the home is fair game... unless neither of you meant what you posted.

But now you are saying,
Quote:
Now, we got MLEAKE tellin us that we are
bloodthirsty killers, just shooting at stuff in the dark, and
has to put in questions about our male anatomy, too! Get
a grip, sir!
So are you now changing your earlier statement? Or are you suddenly disagreeing with fas1? Are there rules aobut when and where to shoot in your house, or do you just shoot anybody?

You're trying to have it both ways.

As far as my service, I'm a retired Navy pilot, and now I do contract work in Afghanistan. One of the forum mods is also over here; he and I say hey sometimes on our way to work.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 04:50 PM   #92
hartlock
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2010
Location: lockhart, texas
Posts: 161
I know the rules about shooting, sir. Ive been doin this for
a long time, too! Only guy I ever shot, I shot him in the
daytime. I would never shoot at a shadow, or anything
like that. I know well enough to identify my target before
shooting, Im just not gonna make a War & Peace deal about
it, like take as long to make a decision as it does to read
that book! THAT will get you killed!
hartlock is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 04:58 PM   #93
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
But you're ok with fas1 taking a shot before identifying whether the person is holding knife, gun, or TV? (Which would also imply not really identifying the person...)

Or you were just high-fiving him for some other reason, if you know better?
MLeake is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 05:00 PM   #94
FAS1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 260
Quote:
Well, let's see, hartlock...

fas1 said,
Quote:
if someone is in my home at night I will not wait to determine if he has a TV, knife, or gun in his hands. It's all irrelevant to me.
That is a correct statement and it doesn't say anything about not identifying the person in the house. Your "what If" scenarios don't really apply to often. Heck, I don't even have any kids next door and I don't own an XBOX

I don't think I mentioned bravery in the equation at all, but I am brave enough to protect my loved ones and have no remorse about it.
__________________
Glenn

FAS1 SAFE, LLC
FAS1 is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 05:05 PM   #95
hartlock
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2010
Location: lockhart, texas
Posts: 161
MLEAKE, I think you have some issues, sir. If you wanta
continue this pointless discussion, have at it. I think ive
made my point, and I think you understand what im saying,
too! I always go back to what my mom used to tell me:
never argue with someone that is bent on arguing just for
the sake of arguing! Take care, sir, and be careful over
there. Hartlock out!
hartlock is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 05:07 PM   #96
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
So, you'd protect your loved ones by shooting a guy with his hands full of television...

And you don't think that would bother you, or your family?

In Texas, you might even be ok. In most states, you would not be. But that's only talking in the legal sense, not the mental health sense. Most people who shoot somebody have at least some emotional issue with it; many times, the friends and relatives of the shooter have altered perceptions of the shooter as a result, too.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 05:11 PM   #97
hartlock
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 10, 2010
Location: lockhart, texas
Posts: 161
NO, SIR! IT WOULD NOT BOTHER ME AT ALL!
HE IS A THIEF. HE DOESNT HAVE A RIGHT TO MY
TV! YES, I WOULD SHOOT HIM DEAD,RIGHT THERE!
( I thought I had explained what my actions would be!)
Ah, the old lack of reading comprehension!
hartlock is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 05:15 PM   #98
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
In that case, Hartlock, there are a good number of people who would say that, while your theoretical shooting would be legal in Texas, it would be considered immoral in most of the country, and even by some Texans.

And, in that case, I'd call you bloodthirsty, and not somebody with whom I'm likely to agree on much.

I'll shoot somebody who poses a threat. I'm not shooting somebody over a TV.

My dog will probably bite him, though. I'm fine with that.

If that same guy drops the TV and pulls a weapon, he's done. (Edit: To clarify - he has made himself a legitimate target. I am NOT saying I'd execute him, just that he's now raised the bar to where shooting to stop is ethical and indicated.)

Call it a philosophical difference if you will, but to me it's a huge distinction.
MLeake is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 05:18 PM   #99
FAS1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 260
Quote:
I'm sure that Ray Lemes of San Antonio worked hard for what he had, and though he was acquitted of murder, he endured four years of investigation and two murder trials, and reportedly has nothing left.
He has his life and this is what he said at his trial:

“If he wouldn't have entered my house, he wouldn't have been shot,” Lemes responded to prosecutors before both sides rested.

If he had it to do over again, homeowner Ray Lemes still would have shot a college student who bled to death on his cul-de-sac four years ago, he told jurors Tuesday at his murder trial.
__________________
Glenn

FAS1 SAFE, LLC
FAS1 is offline  
Old October 18, 2011, 05:27 PM   #100
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,921
Quote:
Posted by hartlock: Here we go! Now, we got MLEAKE tellin us that we are bloodthirsty killers,...
MLeake's opinions notwithstandng, you have already given investigators and a Grand Jury a basis from which to arrive at such a conclusion, and a prosecutor, all he or she will need to portray you as a bloodthirsty killer, should the occasion ever arise:
Quote:
If the guys, teenagers, or whatever age they are, come into my house at 2:30 am, they are getting shot! Period!
This is somewhat less damning, but the effect would be additive:
Quote:
You do what you want in your house, I will do what needs to be done in mine, if thats ok with you, and even if it aint ok!
And, of course, this:
Quote:
You start making up rules to when and where you are gonna shoot someone THAT IS IN YOUR HOUSE, you are already in a world of hurt, in my opinion!
We all need to understand a few things:
  • While castle doctrine laws do go a long way toward establishing justification wean deadly force is used in a home invasion, they are not necessarily completely determinitive; in Texas, for example, being "in your house" is just part of the requirement.
  • We all need to always avoid creatng evidence that can be used against us to establish mens rea, and placing it in a medium in which there is no expectation of privacy.
  • Any of us may someday be faced with the decision of whether to fire a firearm at someone in our home;upon that decision, our survival may depend, but even if we have to do so, are justified, and are ultimately adjudged to have been justified, the aftermath is likely to be very unpleasant at best.
OldMarksman is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13437 seconds with 7 queries