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Old October 17, 2011, 05:14 PM   #51
BGutzman
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Come and get it.... Its right next to several of my awards for service in combat in Afganistan...

Some talk the talk and some have walked the walk.... Dont equate following the law with inability to take action if required..
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Old October 17, 2011, 05:26 PM   #52
Mike Irwin
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Some states, at least most sane states, consider a night-time invasion of an occupied dwelling an affirmative defense if the homeowner uses lethal force in response, even if the intruder isn't armed, or apparently armed.

If someone is willing to break into a home during a time when it is highly likely that it will be occupied, the presumption is that they constitute an immediate threat to life and limb and that threat can be met with deadly force.

Some states still have the "you must first retreat" restrictions on use of deadly force, even during a night time invasion.
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Old October 17, 2011, 05:32 PM   #53
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Some states still have the "you must first retreat" restrictions on use of deadly force, even during a night time invasion.
That they do, though one has to wonder how you retreat from your own home.

Castle doctrine isn't the be all, end all of HD either. Simply gives you the option to defend yourself within your home.
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Old October 17, 2011, 05:44 PM   #54
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farmerboy:

To the one who stated they would not shoot anyone unless under immanent threat. A bad guy comes into your house is very polite and sees your wife washing dishes and tells her he wishes to do neither of you harm but he's going to rape her and leave you too alone afterwards but will be gentle. You still wouldn't shoot him would you because no one is getting hurt by your last post. Ps- you don't know it but the BG has aids. What if he politely says he's gonna take your tv and insurance can get you another one, no threat was made. Nobody got hurt. He just walks away whistling carrying your tv. This is truly just scenarios and hope this never happens to your are anybody elses wife but really someone that makes those statements, what will you defend??? Hell you won't even help yourself or protect your assests under certain conditions what will you. That's fine maybe it's allright to live I'n a bubble, Idk. But just don't ever get caught kicking my door I'n I'n the night hrs or day either. I'm not gonna ask you if your hear to kill rape or just steal a tv. All I'm gonna say is the last thing you'll see is a bright flash
My state is not a Castle Doctrine State so shooting someone over property will cause me more hassles than filing an insurance claim. I never said I wouldn't confront them, tell them to put the TV down, and get down on the floor. If they choose to keep walking I will not shoot them over a TV. You don't have to like my plan, I don't have to like yours. Mine doesn't affect you and yours doesn't affect me. Try to relax and realize all you control is you and not everyone else's actions.

As for your rape scenario it is entirely ludicrous. Rape is a violent crime whether it is done gently or not. It is forcing someone to physically comply against their wishes.

Apparently you will go to the extreme of ridiculousness to try and discredit me. Honestly, I think with this post you are clutching at straws and you look really, really, desperately foolish.

Do have a nice day.

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Old October 17, 2011, 05:50 PM   #55
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farmerboy, you really should take some classes on the legalities of self-defense. Your examples have been getting ridiculous.

Somebody who breaks into the house, in many states, is in the process of committing a felony that specifically allows use of force, including deadly force.

When that same person makes an obvious effort to retreat, as in leave the premises, not simply get to a more advantageous tactical position for re-attack, in most states that person no longer meets the threshold that justifies use of deadly force.

In Texas, under certain circumstances (depending in part on whether it's night or day; whether he is taking property that cannot be reasonably replaced; etc) you might still be legally ok if you continued to engage. In most of the rest of the US, you'd be courting disaster.

Talking tough really doesn't mean much. If some of the people who are spouting off actually did some of the things they advocate, they'd be setting themselves up for serious felony charges. Might the DA decide not to press charges? Possibly. If charges were pressed, might a jury nullify them? Possibly. How many thousands would have been spent on legal counsel by that point, on average? How would that cost compare to the cost of replacing a tv?

Let's say the process ended up taking two months worth of time, between an initial day or weekend in jail, plus hearings, etc. I work overseas. Good odds that post-shooting, pre-trial, I'd be restricted from leaving the country. Two months of lost wages.... It would cost less to let a BG steal my truck, and that's without paying a lawyer one cent.

(And I have a reasonably nice truck.)

We haven't even discussed the emotional turmoil for self, spouse, etc.

If I am ever forced to shoot somebody, then so be it. But it's not something I'm looking to do, if it isn't necessary to prevent death or grave bodily injury. (And yes, in every state in the US, rape would qualify as grave bodily injury, so that example of yours was ... I can't even think of a word that wouldn't offend the mods.)
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Old October 17, 2011, 05:54 PM   #56
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When the situation does happen....How would anyone really react.?

Some say...."I would never shoot and kill someone, if my life did not depend on it".

Well I ask you this....

If you saw someone behind the steering wheel of your vehicle. And they were stealing it. You have your concealed firearm. You have that brief opportunity to stop the thief....but you have to shoot him.
The dirty looking creep turns, looks at you, winks his eye, flips you the finger as he is about to drive off.

The thief is not awaire of this, but in your vehicle is your $10,000 Colt 1911 custom built handgun, your briefcase with $165,000 in cash in it.

WOULD YOU SHOOT?
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Old October 17, 2011, 05:58 PM   #57
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WOULD YOU SHOOT?
Sure, take out the tires
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Old October 17, 2011, 06:00 PM   #58
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If I walked off and left a $10,000 Colt and a briefcase with $165,000 in my truck, I should shoot myself for being an absolute moron.
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Old October 17, 2011, 06:07 PM   #59
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Quote:
MLeake:

If I walked off and left a $10,000 Colt and a briefcase with $165,000 in my truck, I should shoot myself for being an absolute moron.
Ding, Ding, DING!! We have a winner!!
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Old October 17, 2011, 06:16 PM   #60
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If I walked off and left a $10,000 Colt and a briefcase with $165,000 in my truck, I should shoot myself for being an absolute moron.
Was wondering that myself, but maybe there's a good reason
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Old October 17, 2011, 07:27 PM   #61
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City or county demographics also determine the outcome of a defensive shooting. Some locales have a 60-90% population of one race, and if one is arrested there for shooting in self-defense, and if the shooter belongs to a different race, the probability of fair treatment is open to question. Also, attitudes about firearms and their use vary by region. Cops in rural Texas or Tennesse probably will have a different view than those in urban New York or New Jersey. Police in Long Island communities may look at it in a different light than Manhattan cops.
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Old October 17, 2011, 08:02 PM   #62
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O ok i think i got it now, if Im in a white neighborhood and a white bg is kicking in my door I can kill him but if its a black guy I better not shoot because they might find me guilty?
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Old October 17, 2011, 08:30 PM   #63
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To everyone his own like I said on my previous post I won't take a chance. Some people have different stands on this topic and ive seen it before.. This is like talking about caliber preference or religion.. Everyone has their own opinion.. Who is right no one knows.. One thing I do say is if the occasion ever presents, god forbid , I can bet my bottom dollar that the people crying won't be at my house..
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Old October 17, 2011, 09:14 PM   #64
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I have some some very serious problems with someone breaking into my house, that to me is like some serial killer stuff. If i find someone creeping around my house in the dead of night then there will be no warning shot or warning period. Cruel maybe...but that is what sick people do ( break into peoples house ).

However, if someone is stealing scrap metal from my backyard and i catch them doing it then i will call the cops and maybe shoot out a tire. depends on if i am with someone whos life i will not risk. The reason i say that is if they are armed then they will fight instead of flee if i destroy there transportation.

But anyways, farmerboy...chill man. Relax bud..criminals have really really bad luck.
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Old October 17, 2011, 10:30 PM   #65
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People should in all good sense retreat if and when possible.

They should not leave safety and confront a threat.

Property crime is not justification for murder, and whether you want to believe it or not, sneaking up on a guy who came into your home and shooting him is homicide. Legally justified, but still a homicide.

Engaging in an in the home gun battle because a person finds an intruder is dangerous to EVERYONE WITHIN A MILE RADIUS.

In my thoughts, an armed citizen should retreat where possible, contact the law, and then, if the effort to resolve the situation without shots being fired fails, then there is no option left, and that citizen should make every effort to put the intruder into a hole.

It would be interesting to see stats on two things:

First, how often people died in their own homes during a gunfight, who may have had other options for safety.

Second, how many people have died over the history of mankind because they entered a house without evil intentions?

We had a retarded kid up the street that was 6 feet tall, and solidly built. One day, I caught him creeping around the neighbor's house with a toy gun, all alone, playing cops and robbers. he even opened the gate and went into their enclosed porch. Castle doctrine would have allowed my neighbor to kill him instantly. If his parents had been so stupid that he had a pellet or bb gun without a red tip, and he had done so at my house, he might have died if I stretched the meaning of the castle doctrine. But, if I had just stepped away from the windows and called the cops, nobody would have been hurt.
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Old October 18, 2011, 12:18 AM   #66
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Quote:
If you shoot in self defense the premise is you shoot to kill.
Quote:
This is a totally incorrect assumption: Self-defense in regards to deadly force is the use of the minimum force necessary to stop the imminent life threatening attack. It may or may not be that the attacker dies as a result of the force used to stop the attack. The intent of the defenders force is only to stop the attack not to take life...
I think maybe he was saying, you are using deadly force via premise when you fire in selfdefense whether you're firing a 44 magnum or a 22 deringer and/or whether you're shooting at BG's center mass or if you are shooting at BG's legs to wound. It is all considered deadly force when you draw and shoot.
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Old October 18, 2011, 12:33 AM   #67
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In my thoughts, an armed citizen should retreat where possible, contact the law, and then, if the effort to resolve the situation without shots being fired fails, then there is no option left, and that citizen should make every effort to put the intruder into a hole.
I always hear people talking about the stress of lawyers and guilt and yadda yadda, how about the stress and anxiety I will suffer(and I gurantee I would) worrying about my damn kids and wife and everything else because this killa or sick person or whatever else you want to call him is allowed to walk away? he knows me but I don't know him. He might come back. There are stats on the fact that many times the perp knows the family and the house. yes, sometimes it is random, but I would hate not knowing.

Lots of good posts - I like Aarond's and also the one about how 'sick people' invade homes and how it reminds him of serial killers. I'm not taking any chances if someone breaks in...the property thing isn't really even an issue to me because pretty much you're barking up the wrong tree usually and that isn't my concern. I gotta tell you though, I can only hope I am so lucky that while my family's home is invaded in the wee hrs of the mrng that this guy is stealing a tv and a soda. Luck might be the wrong word, BUT the BG(or bad guys) is usually in the house posing a much much bigger threat.
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Old October 18, 2011, 03:17 AM   #68
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today's news

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/virg...is-home-101711

cut and dry:

http://www.q13fox.com/news/kcpq-poli...,4751982.story
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Old October 18, 2011, 07:29 AM   #69
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If you don't want people sneaking into your house, there are plenty of preventive options.

Improve your exterior lighting.

Design your landscaping to not allow hide spots near the house.

Put good doors on the house and attached garage, in solid door frames, with good locks. Use the locks.

Lock the windows.

Burglar bar the sliding doors.

Consider investing in lockable storm shutters.

Consider getting some electronic security.

Set up the interior of the house so that loved ones are in a relatively small, defensible area, so it's easy to set up a defensive chokepoint.

My personal favorite: Get a dog, or multiple dogs. (I have three; the small one barks a lot, and the big ones, while friendly, can scare a stranger quite nicely; one of the big ones will very likely bite an aggressive stranger.) Nothing, but nothing, sneaks up on our house while we are home.

If past experience is any indicator, some poster or posters will now say, "I shouldn't have to go to that much trouble," and/or "I have a gun, I can just shoot them."

To them I say, "good luck."

Edit: Of course, I also have guns. I usually have one on my person. I also have a shotgun or rifle secured but accessible, depending on what part of the house I'm in. I've also been heavily into martial arts for a couple decades. And I work as a defense contractor in Afghanistan. (I'm there now.)

My point is, I'm not talking from a perspective of rose-tinted glasses. If it becomes necessary to engage an intruder, due to a reasonably perceived threat of imminent grave or deadly bodily harm to me or mine, then I have the equipment, the ability, and most of all the mindset to deal decisively with the problem.

I would just prefer to prevent the need in the first place.

If you can't understand that, I guess I might as well not bother...
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Old October 18, 2011, 08:15 AM   #70
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City or county demographics also determine the outcome of a defensive shooting. Some locales have a 60-90% population of one race, and if one is arrested there for shooting in self-defense, and if the shooter belongs to a different race, the probability of fair treatment is open to question. Also, attitudes about firearms and their use vary by region. Cops in rural Texas or Tennesse probably will have a different view than those in urban New York or New Jersey. Police in Long Island communities may look at it in a different light than Manhattan cops.

Nogo, you hit the nail on the head. We have many examples throughout history and recent times of offender being X and home owner being Y, then local politicians, DA's and other Law Enforcement using the shooting as an opportunity to politically grand stand for Minority or Majority groups. Thankfully if its dark you don't really have a chance to consider skin color do you?


Quote:
I think maybe he was saying, you are using deadly force via premise when you fire in selfdefense whether you're firing a 44 magnum or a 22 deringer and/or whether you're shooting at BG's center mass or if you are shooting at BG's legs to wound. It is all considered deadly force when you draw and shoot.
I was always tought growing up, and I have taught my wife if you pull that trigger it is because you feel you have no other choice but to use deadly force. By pulling the trigger and shooting at someone, you have to assume that you are using deadly force and the person you are aiming at will no longer be alive in a couple of seconds. If you are pulling the trigger for any other reason, you are not properly applying force in that situation. Bullets ricochet, over penetrate, etc all the time. Every discharge of a firearm, especially in the confines of a home in a residential area can be very lethal.
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Old October 18, 2011, 08:20 AM   #71
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If you can't understand that, I guess I might as well not bother...
To have attempted to for this long, sir, you have the patience of a saint

I assume anyone that is in my house that I did not invite is an intruder and means to do harm to myself or others who reside there. Hopefully, as youngunz pointed out he is there for the TV (its 10 years old and heavy, so good luck with that) and a soda.

I keep a pistol and a flashlight by my bedside, and when awake a pistol on my person or nearby, I also have a cell phone and alarms on the doors - all of which should be used in conjunction, but not necessarily concurrently.

I have no desire to use a firearm to do anything but punch paper (and the occasional alien target) nor do I want the stress of investigations, possibly a trial, and the expense that goes with it. But if forced to choose between myself and those I love or some random meth addict whose motivations are unpredictable at best, well, I wouldn't want to be him.

Quote:
If it becomes necessary to engage an intruder, due to a reasonably perceived threat of imminent grave or deadly bodily harm to me or mine, then I have the equipment, the ability, and most of all the mindset to deal decisively with the problem.
Yup
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Old October 18, 2011, 09:39 AM   #72
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those shutters seem pretty cool. we have the alarm and a good one. it does help because it alerts you and when properly set will be loud Before BG is in the home(instead of 20 sec later when he is already up the stairs anyways and doesn't turn back).

we got the exterior light out front that I at first didn't pay electricity bill for(should've kept my mouth shut//turns out was free until I said something and they noticed their mistake). then we have a sensor light that turns with movement in back. we can leave other lights on but I usually don't and locking doors and windows I am big on. I have neighbors that leave their garages open but I dont do that ever
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Old October 18, 2011, 09:47 AM   #73
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Let me try this one more time.

1) If myself, my loved ones, or my friends are threatened with violence, I will use whatever means is available to protect them.

2) I will not shoot, to wound or kill, someone stealing my TV. To me it simply is not worth the legal issues that I would have to deal with in my state. We are NOT a Castle Doctrine state, force can only be used as necessasry to stop the threat. You see it would be damn hard to prove a physical threat if I shot a guy in the back as he headed out my door with my tv.

3) I am not saying i wouldn't confront the guy, with my gun in hand, tell him to put the tv down and get down on the floor. I won't shoot him if he does not comply.

Is that clear enough? It isn't about stupid, nonsensical "gentle rape" scenarios. It's not about not defending my family. It's about MY idea that property is not worth killing someone over. It is that simple.

Do as you wish. I most certainly will.
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Old October 18, 2011, 10:02 AM   #74
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On a side note, anyone think that BGs know when you can or can't legally shoot them?

Dunno about anyone else, but I'd be pretty much speechless if I was told "I'm only stealing your tv/car/ginsu knife set/whatever, you can't shoot me. See ya"

Quote:
I am not saying i wouldn't confront the guy, with my gun in hand, tell him to put the tv down and get down on the floor. I won't shoot him if he does not comply
That's what a teeball bat is for
I would say pistol whip, but I don't wanna screw up my sights
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Old October 18, 2011, 10:08 AM   #75
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I'm pretty sure it was Mas Ayoob, in his class in August, who told me "Nobody ever looks at a Doberman or Rottweiler, and says 'you don't have the ****s to bite me.' "

One more advantage to the large dog... A burglar may try to bluff a home-owner. A burglar will rarely try to bluff a dog.

Note to mods: Not trying to get around the language filter, per se, but it's a direct quote.
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