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Old September 11, 2011, 09:37 PM   #1
Kayser
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First time neck sizing 308. Question.

I tried running 16 pieces of brass (fired twice, both times from the same rifle) through the Lee neck sizing die. Gave it a stern amount of cam-over as per the instructions to force the collect closed.

After sizing, 4 of the 16 failed the NO-GO test on the Wilson case gage, slightly. Rifle in question is a 10 year old Rem 700, with maybe 2000 rounds through it. All by me. Well maintained. Tack driver with this brass so far. The brass in question does chamber in the rifle with no effort.

What is this telling me? I can't imagine I have a headspace problem on the rifle, can I?

Edit : running several pieces of fired but completely unprocessed brass through the gage, I'm seeing a lot of variance. A few failing NO-GO, and quite a few passing it no problem (in fact, a few were even slightly below the GO).
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Old September 11, 2011, 10:55 PM   #2
F. Guffey
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"through the Lee neck sizing die"

I would first purchase full length sizer die, THEN I would not use another die until I was able to size cases for short chambers, size cases that were minimal length=to full length sized cases for chambers that are = to a go gage length, size cases for chambers that are as long as a field reject chamber, neck size, neck size with case body support. After accomplishing all the task listed above I would evaluate the need for neck sizer dies, bushing dies and competition dies.

One thing for sure, I would not follow the crown when purchasing die, I would not purchase a cute die before I got all the use I could out of the old versatile full length sizer die.

You are neck sizing with a neck sizing die and.....

"Gave it a stern amount of cam-over as per the instructions to force the collect closed"

Anyhow, I determine the length of the chamber first, then there is the diameter of the chamber and diameter of the case, I do that also, not my job to convince anyone it can be done.

Sized cases that will not chamber are caused by bad habits, same for most cases that develop do-nuts.

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Old September 11, 2011, 11:02 PM   #3
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I'm....not sure you read what I posted.

I have been using a full length sizer die for years. I've fired hundreds of rounds through the full length sizer in this rifle. I just recently purchased the neck sizing die to try something new.

- I was surprised to find freshly fired brass, run through the neck sizer, failing the NO-GO gage.

- I was subsequently surprised to find the freshly fired brass coming out of my rifle without any processing failing the NO-GO gage.

- The oversized brass chambers just fine (no bullet, no prime. just the neck sizer)

My question is - what is this telling me? Do I have a headspace problem with my rifle? As I understand the Wilson gage, it's cut to SAAMI spec. Every round I've sized with the full length sizer in the past has always passed the NO-GO.
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Old September 11, 2011, 11:36 PM   #4
mehavey
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Quote:
freshly fired brass coming out of my rifle without any processing failing the NO-GO gage.
If the fired brass fits back in the rifle/no problem, you (most likely) be seeing the effects of case bulge interfering with gauge seating, not the shoulder position.

Beg, borrow, steal (or in a pinch, buy) an RCBS Precision Mic and find out.
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Old September 11, 2011, 11:45 PM   #5
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OR... you can do what this guy did w/ a pistol casing to measure the relative difference in shoulder position between an unfired/factory cartridge and your fired cases.


http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=86.0

I think you'll only a few thousandths difference, and you'll be G2G.
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Old September 12, 2011, 07:35 AM   #6
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Fire Formed

Brass fired in your chamber and neck sized ( at proper trim length ) should chamber in your rifle unless you are bulging them with your collet die . Sounds like your chamber is just a tad bigger than SAMMI standard . If they fit your chamber , you have neck sized successfuly ! I trim to .010 under trim to length when neck sizing and never have any issues .
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Old September 12, 2011, 07:54 AM   #7
243winxb
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Wilson rifle gages measures Head to Datum line.

L. E. Wilson bottle neck rifle gages are not made with chambering reamers but with special reamers giving extra clearance both in front of and behind the shoulder so as to elimi-nate any possibility of contact except at the gaging point. A rim with a burr will cause the brass to sit higher in the gage, looking like excessive headspace. Turn brass around, put head/rim in first to check for a burr or to large diameter rim.
Quote:
running several pieces of fired but completely unprocessed brass through the gage, I'm seeing a lot of variance. A few failing NO-GO, and quite a few passing it no problem (in fact, a few were even slightly below the GO).
The variance is seen using gages because the brass has not fully expanded to the chamber. It may take more then 3 full power loadings to do this. A gunsmith would use these gauges to check your rifle, the wilson is not an exact measurement. Measure your brass using SAAMI drawings found here > http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ex.cfm?page=CC
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:02 AM   #8
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"After sizing, 4 of the 16 failed the NO-GO test on the Wilson case gage, slightly.....What is this telling me? I can't imagine I have a headspace problem on the rifle, can I?"

As you may gather from the widely mixed responses, no one really has a clue what you mean. Saying your cases "failed" a Wilson NO-GO check means nothing unless you don't tell us how they "failed".

As a guess, I doubt there is anything wrong with the rifle or die.

Last edited by wncchester; September 12, 2011 at 08:16 AM.
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:12 AM   #9
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duplicate deleted
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:29 AM   #10
F. Guffey
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I have been using a full length sizer die for years. I've fired hundreds of rounds through the full length sizer in this rifle. I just recently purchased the neck sizing die to try something new.

"What is this telling me? I can't imagine I have a headspace problem on the rifle, can I?"


"I'm....not sure you read what I posted"


"Anyhow, I determine the length of the chamber first, then there is the diameter of the chamber and diameter of the case, I do that also, not my job to convince anyone it can be done"


"I have been using a full length sizer die for years. I've fired hundreds of rounds through the full length sizer in this rifle. I just recently purchased the neck sizing die to try something new"


"hundreds of rounds through the full length sizer"

And I said I determine the length of the chamber first, sizing cases to fit, for me, is no accident. My presses with shell holders and dies are adjustable from - .012 shorter than a minimum length case ( .017 shorter than a go-gage size chamber) to infinity or as I always say " .016 thousands longer than a minimum length case which is .002 thousands longer than a field reject gage or .011 thousands longer than a go-gage length chamber.

Again, it is your case that will not chamber, if it was my case that did not chamber I would measure the case and compare the dimensions with my chamber, length and diameter.

If a full length sized case sized with your full length sized die will chamber and cases sized with the Lee neck sizer die will not chamber and I had the ability to compare a full length sized case with a Lee neck sized case I could determine the difference between the two.

I would have no interest in comparing the difference, I use the versatile full length sizer die (repeat), I believe anyone that recommends the bushing/colet dies is doing a disservice when they use a the short version or a response of two lines.

"OH! you just gotta get you one of those Lee colet dies, I use one and my brass last forever" Then I say cases that will not chamber after sizing are caused by bad habits and I say do-nuts are caused by bad habits, and as you say "I'm....not sure you read what I posted"

So I say think, the colet locks on to the neck, and you said you put a load on the handle, think again, the case body does not have case support meaning if the Lee colet die is not adjusted progressively the neck can be pushed down toward the case body, with out case body support the case can bulge, THEN, a do-nut can form at the neck/shoulder juncture, about that time the reloader is in need of another die or therapy, I am a big fan of getting all the use I can out of a piece of equipment, I use the versatile full length sizer die with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

Back to your question as to a head space problem, the answer is no, you do not have a head space problem, you have a case sizing problem, the chamber did not get smaller/shorter in diameter or in length, you have acquired some bad habits in you methods and techniques.

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Old September 12, 2011, 08:51 AM   #11
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The L.E. Wilson case gage is a 'DATUM' based/design tool. It can be used as go or no-go or it can be used as a precision tool that can measure the length of the case in thousands, again, I get all the use out of my tools that is possible, with room I use a set-up table and a feeler gage, without the set up table I use a straight edge and a feeler gage to measure above and or below .000 (+ or - in thousands) and no, as believed on other forums, the Wilson case gage is not a chamber gage.

To check the datum in the Wilson case gage, insert a case, with a soft drift on the head of the case hit the drift lightly with a hammer, it helps if the gage is placed on a bar of lead, anyhow when the case is removed the shoulder will be concaved, for those that can measure a radius they will find on the 308 W the radius is .400 and on the 30/06 type gages the radius is .375.

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Old September 12, 2011, 11:27 AM   #12
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Again, it is your case that will not chamber, if it was my case that did not chamber I would measure the case and compare the dimensions with my chamber, length and diameter.

It does chamber. I've said this twice now in two posts.


Back to your question as to a head space problem, the answer is no, you do not have a head space problem, you have a case sizing problem, the chamber did not get smaller/shorter in diameter or in length, you have acquired some bad habits in you methods and techniques.

If you would actually read what I posted, you would see that I have brass that is too long both without any sizing of any kind, as well as with just the neck sizing. Whenever I have used the full length sizer in the past, I have always ended up with properly sized (as shown on the gage) brass.

I'm sorry if me trying something new offends you, but I can assure you my reloading technique is excellent. I would offer up the fact that I ran into something unexpected on my very first use of a new tool, and immediately asked the experts for advice. Snarky responses are not helpful.
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Old September 12, 2011, 11:48 AM   #13
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Link to Lee's FAQ Help page.

Lee has 5 topics on the Collet Die use and adjustment. Look under "Dies & Die questions" http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Freque...Questions.html

Last edited by 243winxb; September 12, 2011 at 11:50 AM. Reason: fixed link , i hope
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Old September 12, 2011, 03:56 PM   #14
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Neck Sizing

Gee , I thought the last two sentences of my post (#6) summed it up pretty well . Neck sizing dies do not size to sammi specs , they are designed not to . The neck die is designed to work the brass as little as possible while yielding cases that are custom fit (fire formed) to your chamber . Accuracy and case life are both enhanced by neck sizing !
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Old September 12, 2011, 04:03 PM   #15
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Yes, I think it's been cleared up for me now. Basically, the issue at hand isn't really related to the neck sizer at all. The issue here is that my raw fired brass itself is failing the case no-go gage. The neck sizer was a red herring.

Since they chamber, I'll load them up and try 'em out. I'll also have my gunsmith run a chamber no-go gage on the rifle as well just for good measure.
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Old September 12, 2011, 04:06 PM   #16
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Kayser,

If the fired/unsized case fits back in the chamber and the bolt closes, your neck sizing will not in any way hinder that.

If the fired/neck-sized case fits in the chamber and the bolt closes, your are OK again.

If the fired/neck-sized case does not fit in the Wilson case gauge, do not be overly concerned as the case guage will in all liklihood not accept a fired case unless the sides have been squeezed in via FL resizing.

If the use of a pistol case as a headspace comparator between unfired commercial and a fired cases does not reveal differences over 0.008", don't worry about it at all. Just keep neck sizing and shooting !
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Old September 12, 2011, 04:10 PM   #17
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If fired brass would return to specs , we wouldn't need to resize at all would we ? I want to be the guy that discovers an elastic metal , that can stretch and return to its exact form .
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Old September 12, 2011, 04:27 PM   #18
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I had to laugh a bit reading the thread.

I don't think you have any problems at ALL. If the brass chambers in your rifle, then you have succeeded in having the most perfect fitting round possible for your rifle.

Since it doesn't fit the NO-GO gauge is of no real concern. Obviously it is telling you that your rifle's chamber is cut a bit larger than SAMMI specs. Some rifles were just buillt that way. But you said it is a very accurate rifle, so it's not really a problem at all.

Obviously whenever you FL size for that rifle it is sizing more than necessary.

Try the new rounds out for accuracy. If they work, don't look back. Fire them as many times as you can until they start to become difficult to chamber. Then FL size and be done with it and go back to neck sizing.
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Old September 12, 2011, 04:43 PM   #19
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you have been given the answer already.the wilson gauge just shows that a fired case will no pass.and by neck sizeing only gives the same answer.so with that said you should have learned something with your post.

the lee collet has given me many times great loads for my rifels of choice to load for.wouldn't get any other die for the task.just take your time with it and run with it.there are many post on it giveing alot to learn about useing the die.the best I can give for ya is to clean it and polish the matting parts putting a little grease between them.yeah one more for ya.deprime you cases before you use the collet die.this will help you out alot.it allows you to feel the collet closeing onto the neck alot better.by being able to feel the collet closeing on the neck it will help out with the amount of pressure you put on the ram.

now with your answer and a few tips go and load some
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Old September 13, 2011, 07:20 AM   #20
F. Guffey
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"I'm sorry if me trying something new offends you, but I can assure you my reloading technique is excellent. I would offer up the fact that I ran into something unexpected on my very first use of a new tool, and immediately asked the experts for advice. Snarky responses are not helpfuf"







"I have been using a full length sizer die for years. I've fired hundreds of rounds through the full length sizer in this rifle. I just recently purchased the neck sizing die to try something new"



Forgive, read through the responses, if not me, WHO? I am telling you 'you can' I am telling have not been doing all you could do from the beginning, as you said,
"I've fired hundreds of rounds through the full length sizer..."
By the time I fire the first round I know the length of the chamber, had you know the length of the chamber 'first' you would have know the effect 'hundreds' of rounds would have had on the chamber.



I do not believe I have a Lee colet die therefore I do not have to make excuses for owning one, on the outside chance others read this thread, before purchasing something they do not need they could consider using the full length sizer as a versatile full length sizer die. Again I use the full length sizer die to size cases from .012 thousands shorter than a minimum length sized case to .016 thousands longer than a minimum length sized case, that is 28 options in thousands, there are reloaders that have purchase Redding competition shell holders for $40.00+ for 5 options, and have lost it when they found that a couple of the shell holders were .001 off, and they can not determine the deck height of a standard shell holder and are under the illusion shell holder brands should match die brands.



You have a L.E. Wilson case gage, read through this thread, it is referred to as being a 'drop-in' gage, If not by me, WHO? Is going to describe the limits of the gage is limited by the users ability, knowledge and techniques. A dial caliper can be used tp measure the length of the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder (DATUMS)in thousands, with a little skill the owner of the Wilson gage can measure the length in thousands with a straight edge and a feeler gage, or a last word/spot-on indicator.



Snarky: A reloader should be able to determine the length of the chamber, a reloader should be able to measure the length of a case from the head of the case to it's shoulder, how much they choose to spend depends on their limited skills, I have presses, dies and shell holders, I have a feeler gage, I have a dial caliper and I make datums.



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Old September 13, 2011, 01:17 PM   #21
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"..if the Lee colet die is not adjusted progressively the neck can be pushed down toward the case body, with out case body support the case can bulge,"

No neck die "supports" the case body, that's virtually the definition of a neck die.

There is no way Lee's collet sizer neck die can bulge a shoulder unless the collet sleeve is jammed up in the top of the die body before the case goes in, and if that happens it's sure not the die's fault.

As matter of semantics for a technical activity in which the correct use of words matter; there is no such thing as a GO-NO GO gage for cases, those are made for chambers and are illustrated in post #7.

A Wilson type drop-in gage simply lets us see if the case and/or cartridge meets SAMMI specs and that isn't worth beans unless we want to duplicate factory ammo. But we shoot our guns, not our gages so we need to custom make ammo to fit our guns. If we don't do that we may as well use factory ammo.

Very few reloaders have, or need, a dial indicator and the associated stand it needs to work with.

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Old September 13, 2011, 02:34 PM   #22
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Kayser,

The answer is very simple. The Wilson gauge is a new ammunition case length gauge, not a chamber length gauge. If you look at the SAAMI drawings you will see the maximum length for new .308 ammunition cases is shorter than the maximum length for chambers.

The numbers are 1.634" max for a case and 1.638" max for a chamber (FIELD NO-GO). The chamber is supposed to be limited to 1.634", like the case, when it's new, but if your gun has enough rounds on it to set the lugs back a little, when you fire a cartridge with enough pressure to fully fireform the case to the chamber, it will be too long for the ammunition length gauge. But that doesn't mean your headspace is out of spec.
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Old September 13, 2011, 07:54 PM   #23
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Kayser, don't mind the background noise. Like static on a radio, it's meaninless but it's harmless enough.
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Old September 16, 2011, 06:52 AM   #24
F. Guffey
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eT33eT30Uc

and Quigley said to the the man lying on the ground, the one with the sickly look, "Never said I didn't know how to use it."

And the next thread will have a response, fire first to form then neck size, and you said the neck sizer has case body support, and I ask "How is that possible?", now I wonder if you have a neck sizer die.

I say it is irresponsible for someone that calls himself/herself a reloader to grind a die and or shell holder, go back to the video and the part before the quote "Never said I didn't know how to use it", the pistol was not his first choice, I did not say I did not have neck sizer dies, the neck sizer die is not my first choice, I never said I did not know how to use one, I did not say I did not understand how they work.

If a case is formed then placed in a die with case body support the case is sized when the ram is raised. Back to grinding dies and shell holders and people claiming to being reloaders that just make this stuff up. My neck sizer dies are design to be screwed down to the shell holder, my neck sizer dies are designed to neck size only with no contact with the case or shoulder of the case, remember the die contacting the shell holder prevents the die from coming down far enough for the die to make contact with the shoulder/ neck juncture.

I am going to assume no one responding to this thread has a head space gage and a L.E. Wilson case gage, again it appears to me some are just making this stuff up.

For those that have a Wilson case gage and a head space gage, insert the head space gage in the Wilson gage, those that have not developed skill, methods and techniques can continue using the feel method, again I use a straight edge with the feeler gage, or a set-up table with a feeler gage or a dial caliper, height gage etc., point being the L. E. Wilson gage is a datum designed tool (Datum: a term reloaders have trouble understanding, like head space gages, they think head space gages come from mars).

Yes, a reloadr with limited skill can use the Wilson case gage as a drop-in gage, the part I do not understand is a reloader's insistence on remaining a reloader with limited skill.

I do not shoot head space gages I shoot ammo.
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Old September 16, 2011, 07:10 AM   #25
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"As matter of semantics for a technical activity in which the correct use of words matter; there is no such thing as a GO-NO GO gage for cases, those are made for chambers and are illustrated in post #7"

As to the man with the sickly look, he was not a good listener, he was arrogant, conceded, rude and overbearing, he was not a good listener. And I said I measure the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired, I said I off set the effect the chamber will have on the case when fired by forming the case first, and I make gages for measuring the length of the case and the diameter of the case and you say there is no such thing as a go, no, no-go gage for cases, typing slower, I make gages, I make chamber gages and my chamber gages are not like other chamber gages, and, again, I use datums, I make datums, I purchase datums.

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