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Old September 12, 2011, 08:42 AM   #26
C0untZer0
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I think many shotgunners and handgunners live in different worlds.

Many handgun shooters by now have gone round and round on the debates about bullet effectiveness. The debate about "one-shot-stops", "knock-down-power", and things like the "Relative Incapacitation Index" etc etc...

I don't think a lot of shotgun shooters are familiar with those things, and that's why you hear things like advising birdshot for HD.

Yes - birdshot is going to make a gruesome wound. But a gruesome wound isn't somethin gthat in and of itself is going to necesarily stop an attack.

There are criminals who will break off an attack at the sight of home owner with a shotgun. I wouldn't recomend that homeowners get a plastic replica in the hopes that the sight of a shotgun will stop a home invasion.

There are criminals who will break off an attack upon hearing a home owner cycle a pump shotgun. I wouldn't recomend that homeowners play a recording of one or cycle dud shells in a pump in the hopes that the sound of a shotgun will stop a home invasion.

There are criminals who will break off an attack when they are fired upon. There are criminals who will break off an attack if they are wounded - even when sustaining a minor wound.

But the only proven way to stop an attack by criminal is damage vital tissue.

The attack will stop when vital tissue is damaged.

I constantly refer people to the Tactical Firearms Institute on the subject.

Tactical Brief number 10:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

I'll post the following exerpts for those people who are not going to go out and read the breif:

Quote:
Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.
Quote:
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:50 AM   #27
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I also want to refute the idea that at close range birdshot acts like a "column of lead" which is just like getting hit by a slug.

That is not the case.

Smaller shot even fired at close range starts to disperse and lose velocity very quickly, and it does not penertrate to 12 to 14 inches necesary to damage vital tissue.
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:52 AM   #28
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What's popular isn't always the best. That's why, after extensive research on my part, I chose the Winchester SXP Defender.
Why don't you enlighten us with the reasons why you chose the Winchester?
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old September 12, 2011, 09:15 AM   #29
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I stopped posting the Shotgun World thread with all the blocks of ordinance gelatine, because those blocks don't seem to be calibrated and the penetration of everything seems to be a little deeper than it should be.

I also think their comentary is incorrect in some cases.
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Old September 12, 2011, 09:24 AM   #30
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The OP seems to be asking about brands,

With bullets, there are differences between Winchester Ranger T, Remington Golden Sabre and Federal Hydra Shok. With shot - it's not the same like with bullets. These are just round balls of metal. And as has been stated before - the same brand can act differently in three different shotguns.

There may be some differences with plated versus non-plated and a flight-control cup, lack thereof or even a spreader wad. Wolf shotgun ammo has been shown to open up quite a bit... at HD ranges it might be a good thing.

If you are going to shoot someone at 10 feet - you have to decide if it's better to make a 1" hole or twelve or sixteen .3" holes spread across a 3" diameter.

Just to throw something else in the mix - you get different results if you fire shot through a rifled shotgun barrel.

Normally a shot pattern for normal shells (not FliteControl type cups) opens up 1" per yard from the muzzle. So for typical HD distance - yes you're going to have to aim because you're going to be creating 3"-4" holes.

However... with a rifled barrel and a load like Wolf - which is known for opening up pretty early you can get some pretty large shot patterns.

I calculated that the Wolf through rifled barrel spreads 3.6 times the "normal" rate.

Normal shot through a smoothbore would give roughly a 5" pattern at 5 yards. The Wolf through rifled opens up to 18"

So firing Wolf at 6 feet should create a 7.2" pattern, 10.8" pattern at 9 feet.

That's pretty darn close to the so called myth that you don't have to aim.

Granted the pattern takes on a ring shape...

Buckshot through a rifled barrel:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot43.htm

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Old September 12, 2011, 12:58 PM   #31
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My own idea is that the majority of self defence shooting scenerios are within a very close range.
Mostly all would happen within a 5'-10' feet area, and many times even closer....And it's all about you having total control of your firearm.

In a rapid fast pace situation....A 12 gauge XX Buck shot being fired in a very close range and in a small area, is much more difficult in handling than shooting Bird Shot rounds with less recoil.
Recoil and control is a major factor.

XX Buck is fine for large area and outdoor distance combat.
Maybe I'm wrong....But.
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Old September 12, 2011, 01:43 PM   #32
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Well, if the Bird Shot load in 12g is inadaquate.
Then those Revolvers like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor that shoot the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????
With birdshot, yes .410 revolver are a poor choice. .410 Buckshot is available and these revolvers also are capable of firing .45 Long Colt or, in the case of the S&W Governor, .45 ACP ammunition that is also a much better SD loading that .410 Birdshot.

Quote:
My own idea is that the majority of self defence shooting scenerios are within a very close range.
Mostly all would happen within a 5'-10' feet area, and many times even closer....And it's all about you having total control of your firearm.

In a rapid fast pace situation....A 12 gauge XX Buck shot being fired in a very close range and in a small area, is much more difficult in handling than shooting Bird Shot rounds with less recoil.
Recoil and control is a major factor.
Even at close range, most birdshot still penetrates quite shallowly. Also, there is no guarantee that 5-10 feet is the maximum distance at which you will have to use your shotgun. For example, in my home I have a clear 10-15 yard shot from my bedroom door to my back door (which is also a likely point of entry for a home invader).

If the recoil of 12ga buckshot is too severe, one would be better served by using a 20ga loaded with buckshot rather than a 12ga with birdshot.
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Old September 12, 2011, 01:48 PM   #33
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Bird shot rantings

At close range bird shot will punch right through a 2x4 and leave a hole at least 1 inch wide. I've got an emergency room doctor who is a good friend. He pulled the wad out of a stiff at the hospital. Nothing they could do from a shot of birdshot up close. Too much trauma. You could probably patch a few holes from buck fired at distance, but any shot column near point blank is devastating. This debate keeps coming up again and again and again and again. Fact is that like graysmoke said it's about control of your weapon. If your wife is comfortable with 410 for skeet and that's what she has by the bed loaded with #8, I pity the fool who tries to break in the house in the middle of the night. Yes there are better choices that have X inches more of penetration and are FBI rated but sorry to tell you DOA is DOA. A good 20, 16 or 12 guage firing #6 or larger shot within 10 feet into the face of an attacker will stop the threat in a hurry! Short of the person wearing body armor under a thick leather jacket, birdshot is going to mess up some punk doper cat burglar stalkers day. If you can't afford to buy and practice with buckshot, there is nothing wrong with skeet or trap shooting to practice reload, swing, lead, fire. Self defense is a fluid situation and a person who shoots shotgun regularly is in a lot better shape to defened agaist a moving intruder than someone who just strictly shooting bullseyes on stationary targets. If you can afford buckshot great! If not, don't be scared it's not adequate for defense. Ever see the episode of Son's of guns where they made a 410 kill stick for gators shooting shot loads? A 410 is leathan when correctly employed by a confident user.

I've got a friend who is obsessed about having a 44 magnum with 300 grain buffalo bore bullets or a 450 or 500 S&W magnum to put down bear when he's in the forest! We bought a pair of identical 44 Redhawks and with full power loads are both having problems keeping a good groups at 25 paces with these big barking magnums. Mid range stuff is so much more comfortable and controllable but my friend doesn't think they are adequate for bear defense! For me a 357 mag is a better overall defensive weapon because it fits my hand better and I can hit with it to some distance and group my shots pretty well. I'd feel comfortable plinking 2 liter bottles at 50 yards with the 357. I'm not holding my breath with the 44 page 30 feet! I'll keep shooting the 44 to improve cause It's fun and challenging, but the 357 for me is a much better bullet chucker for my needs. Any handgun against a bear is a big question mark so you better be able to place your shots into the vitals.

Some of you are obsessed with shotgun power and shot size without considering the individual skill level of different shooters. First rule of self defense. Have a reliable gun you are confident to use under stress! If a person can confidently handle a 22 rifle they are better prepared to defend themself than someone who is unfamiliar with a big 12 guage firing slugs. I'd sure like to know statistically what percentage of guys shot point blank with bird shot were able to continue their attack?
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Old September 12, 2011, 02:05 PM   #34
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Recoil is about how massive the shot load is.

Usually, larger spheres in a tube means greater empty space between the spheres and less total mass.

The 16 pellet #1 Buck loads yield a 640 grain payload while Remington’s 12 pellet #0 Buck load gives about a 580 (579.6) grain payload. Based on a 7 lb. shotgun, the Remington #0 Buck Loads generates 27.4 ft. lbs. of recoil, while the #1 Buck factory loads generate 31.8 ft. lbs of recoil. That's roughly a 15% reduction.

I'm just saying that smaller shot doesn't necesarily mean lighter recoiling.
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Old September 12, 2011, 02:10 PM   #35
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There are tests out there for birdshot at close range, and IIRC there is about 5" - 6" of penetration.
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Old September 12, 2011, 02:31 PM   #36
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Birdshot will do the job if close enough.

So will 00.

With 00, close enough is about 25 yards, give or take some.

With birdshot, close enough may be only 25 INCHES. I've seen enough forensic pics to last me a long time that show horrible,shallow wounds. Few such seem to have caused the vics to cease and desist.

When I worked in some of MD's finest sleepover camps for the morally challenged I knew one convict who was slowly starving to death. He had lost most of his intestines after a load of birdshot was inserted at contact range by a co conspirator in a drug deal gone very wrong. He killed the shooter before collapsing.

One bit of anecdotal evidence is hardly enough to indicate probabilities, but it should give one pause connected to Gel tests and real world data.

OO just plain works.....
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Old September 12, 2011, 03:50 PM   #37
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Why don't you enlighten us with the reasons why you chose the Winchester?
I probably should have said a bit more in my first post in this thread, but I chose it because of these following reasons:

It was the lightest pump 12 ga shotgun I could reliably find. A lot of times people look for heavier shotguns to soak up recoil, but carrying it long distances made it important to me.
I liked the location of the safety and the action release button.
The length of pull and drops at heel and comb were good for me, this is completely subjective to my body size though.
It's receiver being made of aluminum, I just figured if I ever went trouncing through dense brush after rain, or was with it in the rain, that it wouldn't be as likely to rust everywhere. Supposedly aluminum "rust" (technically called oxidation) makes it stronger. huh.
The inertia-assisted slide-action thingy making it the fastest pump action shotgun seemed kinda cool.
The tactical typed pump action grip without having to pay for the 870 tactical price and get the obnoxiously stupid end of barrel door/human poker choke.
It was also pretty cheap compared to the Mossbergs and Remington I was comparing it to.

I did go for features that would make it useful for Alaskan bear protection in the field for hikes or fishing or berry picking or whatever, but that doesn't make many of those features a liability in home defense. All I have done to it is added a sling, and the most I would ever do in the future is replace the front brass bead sight with a tritium bead. In the world of tactical style shotguns for defensive use in the field, in the home, or both, but you still like the idea of simplifying and adding lightness, I think the Winchester SXP Defender stands above the rest. If you want one with more bulk added onto it, by all means you should get something else.
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Old September 12, 2011, 04:34 PM   #38
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I don't think these gel blocks were mixed right or at the right temperature or something because the penetration shown is deeper than other tests I've seen, but I still think it's useful to show that birdshot doesn't penetrate all that much.

These were fired for 3 yards.

#4 Bird:



#8 "Heavy Dove"


Here is #1 Buck fired from 3 yards:




Their tests show average penetration of 16.5 inches, but that seems a little higher than other tests in bare gel for #1 Buck which result in 14.5 to 15" average penetration.




.
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File Type: jpg bird_8_heavy_dove_a.jpg (41.1 KB, 197 views)
File Type: jpg buckshot_1_rem.jpg (34.4 KB, 197 views)

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Old September 12, 2011, 04:39 PM   #39
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Here is the Firing Line poll on the subject:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...highlight=buck
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Old September 12, 2011, 07:32 PM   #40
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For sake of argument, let's assume that birdshot is sufficient to stop an intuder under some conditions found in a hd scenario (the intruder is wearing a t shirt and is no more than 2 yards away when hit square in the chest). Will you concede that 00 BS is more likely to put down an intruder under more adverse conditons (for example an intruder wearing a heavy motorcyle jacket has barricaded himself behind the closed bottom half of a Kitchen dutch door)? I think one has to admit that buck shot provides better protection. If so, why would anyone use bird shot unless they had some special collateral damage issue (neighbors on the other side of a party wall)?
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Old September 12, 2011, 07:33 PM   #41
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Well, if the Bird Shot load in 12g is inadaquate.
Then those Revolvers like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor that shoot the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????

Someone or anyone .....Explain
The .410 shells for the Judge can be loaded with lethal buck shot that penetrates vital organs with multiple projectiles.

Sounds like you're comparing a birdshot loaded .410 to a birdshot loaded 12 ga.

Birdshot being adequate/inadequate for SD is a rather general statement.

It's common knowledge that birdshot at very close range is lethal. If you understand the limitations of birdshot, then you have a good SD load within it's effective range------which happens to be FAR less than a 00 buck load.

And if your assailant is trying to kill you from behind the cover of a couch or large chair, even at close range the birdshot is a very poor penetrater and wouldn't have any punch left if it did.
#4 buck is about the least effective buckshot load, but is popular with some because of it's lack of penetration for safety reasons---which is why it's less effective tactically. We all have to assess our own situations and work out our own compromises.

The penetration factor you choose can be your friend or enemy. But it's your choice.

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Old September 13, 2011, 10:54 AM   #42
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My choice of a shotgun is a Browning BPS 'Tactical'. The only thing I have added is a good dedicated weapon light and mount. It is a little heavier than a Mossy or Remington, but I like the buttom eject, tang safety and the fact it is all steel. I have another BPS I use for hunting and I have found the BPS series to be stone cold reliable under any weather conditions and I hunt Geese in some pretty bad weather.
For HD, any GOOD 2 3/4 00 Buck should work. IMHO I don't think you would want to use anything else. If you ever need it, that is not the time to realize you should have used 00.
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Old September 13, 2011, 03:59 PM   #43
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Then those Revolvers like the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor that shoot the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????
Quote:
the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????
Pretty much spot on...

It was the behavior choice of a certain pharmacist following the use of a Judge and .410 that got him locked up for LIFE!

Shot the punk in the head and when he returned from chasing and shooting "AT" the second robber (the armed one), he noticed he was ALIVE so he got a minimal size pistol and sunk 5 more rounds in him...

The .410 happened to knock the kid down and in this case the teenager wasn't up for more scrappin' so it did "Stop this threat"... But buckshot properly dosed stops ANY threat!

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Old September 13, 2011, 06:59 PM   #44
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Quote:
Quote:
the little .410 shells are'ent worth the squat????
----------------------------------------------
Pretty much spot on...
---------------------------------------------
It was the behavior choice of a certain pharmacist following the use of a Judge and .410 that got him locked up for LIFE!

Shot the punk in the head and when he returned from chasing and shooting "AT" the second robber (the armed one), he noticed he was ALIVE so he got a minimal size pistol and sunk 5 more rounds in him...



What does the pharmacist's "behaviour choice" have to do with The Judge, that worked well enough to incapacitate the punk and render him so defenseless that it prompted a murder charge when he was shot again?

A .410 is no superior defense gun loaded with birdshot, especially in a pistol that spreads out so fast, but Winchester's Super-X load shows a 2 1/2" shell with three 000 buck shot and the 3" shell with 5. Velocity 1300 fps.

Each 000 buck is about 36 caliber and weighs about 70 grs.

3 would be fairly potent at close range with all placed COM. Yep, they'd spread out quick---range would be limited.

Five 000 buck at spittin' distance would rival the 12 ga. 8 pellet load at 18 to 20 yds. from a cyl. bore.

The Judge wouldn't be my choice for SD in the home or on the street. It's concept (half pistol, half shotgun) doesn't interest me and I'm a little surprised at it's popularity. But, hat's off to their marketing dept.

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Old September 13, 2011, 07:31 PM   #45
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Birdshot will do the job if close enough.

So will 00.

With 00, close enough is about 25 yards, give or take some.
With previous Fed. Tac LE buckshot, my Scattergun Tech cyl. bore is about a 15 to 18 yd. gun with a rapidly widening pattern after that.

With the current Fed. Tack low recoil LE with FliteControl wad (now standard) shot pattern is simply awesom. Some patterns 6 to 7" at 25yds.

Pic is hard to see, but top circle is 25yd. Right below it, 20yds. And 15 yds. on the bottom. Fed. Tac with FlitControl from Scattergun Tech cyl. bore. The 10 yd. pattern, covered by the pistol, is no pattern---just a big hole.
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Old September 13, 2011, 07:34 PM   #46
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What does the pharmacist's "behaviour choice" have to do with The Judge, that worked well enough to incapacitate the punk and render him so defenseless that it prompted a murder charge when he was shot again?

A .410 is no superior defense gun loaded with birdshot, especially in a pistol that spreads out so fast, but Winchester's Super-X load shows a 2 1/2" shell with three 000 buck shot and the 3" shell with 5. Velocity 1300 fps.

Each 000 buck is about 36 caliber and weighs about 70 grs.

3 would be fairly potent at close range with all placed COM. Yep, they'd spread out quick---range would be limited.

Five 000 buck at spittin' distance would rival the 12 ga. 8 pellet load at 18 to 20 yds. from a cyl. bore.

The Judge wouldn't be my choice for SD in the home or on the street. It's concept (half pistol, half shotgun) doesn't interest me and I'm a little surprised at it's popularity. But, hat's off to their marketing dept
Lets say the pharmacist did what he felt right doing... He feared this living assailant/robber/punk/thug/lowlife was going to get back up and continue the attack...

So .410 to the head isn't adequate from, at least, a Judge and it's short barrel...

Now had I leveled on him with either my 20 gauge loaded with my pet load (easily obtained locally) of #3 buckshot or a 12 gauge with 00 buck, I am guessing the outcome would have been very different!

Brent
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Old September 13, 2011, 07:41 PM   #47
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So .410 to the head isn't adequate from, at least, a Judge and it's short barrel...
It's becoming difficult to convince you that the Judge, with whatever load the pharmacist used, was adequate to completely incapacitate him to the extent that further shooting was called murder. As I recall, the punk was still lying there, having gone nowhere, when the pharmacist returned after dealing with the other punks.

If you want to blame the Judge, rather than the actions of the pharmacist, by contending that another firearm would have killed him outright (preventing the pharmacist from shooting him again), then I'd remind you that the type of incapacitation that occurred was consistent with more conventional firearms.

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Old September 13, 2011, 07:47 PM   #48
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check centurian, not the 2 3/4 but the 2 inch stuff, I am going to buy some this pay check and check them outmight fit the bill, just another route
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Old September 13, 2011, 07:52 PM   #49
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NO... I am not condoning his behavior choice... And in this case, the perp was down... But as I said, my intention is to know full well that I won't have to think about him deciding to re-engage.

Not me... I want the mostest bang for the buck and a .410 ain't it.

Now had this guy soaked up either load I mentioned... am pretty sure I would have busted my butt on his blood as I ran back in to call the cleaning crew in blue.

Brent
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Old September 13, 2011, 10:41 PM   #50
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I got some of this from Cabela's. Works great in my 870 Express 18"

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=857119
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