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Old September 7, 2011, 11:36 PM   #1
Art Eatman
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Predators & Pests

Got my REA Co-Op magazine today. Some $$$ numbers about the value of sheep and goats, common targets of predators.

Lambs: Around $230.

Slaughter ewes: Around $50 to $60 per hundred pounds.

Kid goats around 50 to 60 pounds: $160.

Nannie replacements: $100 per hundred pounds.

Slaughter billies: Around $80 per hundred pounds.

I had a neighbor who lost a dozen goats to a cougar, one night. Another report of a similar number of sheep lost to a cougar, up near Marathon.

Feral hogs will take baby goats or sheep. Coyotes and feral dogs will go for adults as well as babies. Bobcats seem to pretty much stay with the babies.

Never forget that the tax folks don't care whether or not a rancher makes a profit.

IOW, there's a valid reason for predator hunting.
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Old September 8, 2011, 06:26 AM   #2
twins
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Never forget that the tax folks don't care whether or not a rancher makes a profit.
You're right. I don't. I also don't partake in any of the animals/"products from" mentioned.

Why would someone be self-employed, not make a profit, and then justify the existence of the business to others?

As for the predator hunting part, if it's done for population control and legally, I'm all for it. But to justify killing a predator (that is born to kill another animal to live, ie cougar, wolf, coyote, foxes, etc.) just to save a domesticated/farm animal, doesn't sound right to me. If one can't protect their "business" (due to environment, costs, labor, etc.), one shouldn't be in that business.

I'm not trying to take shots at anyone, just doesn't make sense to me.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:37 AM   #3
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It's not done "just to save..." It's done to protect livelihood. Enable food on the table, buy clothes for the family, pay the utilities and make car payments.

Pre-emption is wisdom, as well. About like seeing a masked man carrying an AK47 into a bank and taking him out before he offers to kill folks.
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Old September 8, 2011, 12:38 PM   #4
shortwave
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WOW twins,

Your reply was as about as shallow, non-caring, narrow-minded, self centered a response as I've heard in awhile.

I'll take from your response to Art's comment about 'the tax man' that you are one.

So, what I've taken from your response is, since you don't partake in any of the animals/products Art listed, you could care less about the livelihood of someone choosing that profession. Good lookin out for your fellow mankind.

You probably don't partake in beef or chicken products either do ya? So you could care less about those livelihoods as well.

Your opinion about not killing a predator for the sake of saving domestic animals shows me your basic ignorance of farm/country life(or life in general) and the need for you to get out of that little office and learn the way some other people live outside your little niche of the world.

You posted you were "not trying to take shots at anyone".

Thats fine! You did take shots at some people and I would imagine your professed 'I don't care' attitude towards others livelihoods you may not agree with or 'don't partake in' offended them as well as me...

...and NO, the tax man(the government) could care less of the loss ranchers or farmers acquire through wildlife period.




I've killed a total of four yotes in the yard in the last couple years and have had two in the yard in the last three wks. A cattle farmer over the hill lost a calf to yotes about a month ago. Farmer across the road losses chickens on a regular basis.

I shoot every yote I can. No other natural predator for the yote around here so hunting them is the only way to keep population down.

Last edited by shortwave; September 8, 2011 at 12:44 PM.
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Old September 8, 2011, 01:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
But to justify killing a predator (that is born to kill another animal to live, ie cougar, wolf, coyote, foxes, etc.) just to save a domesticated/farm animal, doesn't sound right to me.
It's the same reason farmers plow fields before they plant, cultivate fields while crops are growing, and till fallow fields: to remove competition for the resources. It's called "agriculture", and farms are "agri-businesses", i.e. businesses engaged in agriculture. As a business, they expect to make a profit each year so they can be in business next year. No profit = no reason to be in business.

Works the same way whether you are making computer games or making cars. No profit, and you are no longer in business.

Sheesh! And we wonder why we are losing the economic war . . .
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Old September 8, 2011, 04:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
But to justify killing a predator (that is born to kill another animal to live, ie cougar, wolf, coyote, foxes, etc.) just to save a domesticated/farm animal, doesn't sound right to me.
Man is a predator as well, so your statement is severely flawed.
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Old September 8, 2011, 05:11 PM   #7
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Removing preaditors to protect your livestock is justifiable. Population control is another good reason. Irradication is not. Seems as though most people are either at one extreme or the other.
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Old September 8, 2011, 05:21 PM   #8
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There is no way hunting today will ever remove predators from one area or another. If you hunt by the state conservation laws predators will be there for the rest of your life. All you can do is keep th population down
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Old September 8, 2011, 07:44 PM   #9
twins
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Shortwave,
I'm a realist. If that's shallow, non-caring, narrow-minded and self-centered, I'm guilty.

If I'm in a business that can't make enough money to take care of my family, then it's on me, no one else. Why should I be treated differently by the "tax man"? That's the reason this country is heading south, too many people wanting things the way it used to be. Life change, so should you.

True, I'm not a farm-boy but it doesn't take much to figure out what makes money, and what doesn't these days (farming/ranching). If you choose the later, it's on you, no one else.

This thread is about hunting (I guess), so the argument of pre-emptive justified killing is acceptable in predator/pest hunting? I don't see the hunting in it, it should be call predator/pest eradication. More fodders for anti-hunting advocates.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:47 PM   #10
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I think what Art was saying

is that helping the livestock industry is another valid reason for predator hunting and predator control! Having read many of Art's previous posts, I don't think he was advocating the violation of local wildlife laws by taking predators illegally.

Another reason for predator control is protection of the other wildlife that we hunt (deer, turkey, rabbit, etc. etc.) If MAN doesn't control the 4 legged predator population they will extinct the "prey" species in short order. For example, in my area not too many people hunt coyotes. The coyote population has blossomed and we now have very few rabbits and not nearly the number of turkey we used to.

Twins:

Since you obviously have no appreciation for farmers/ranchers and feel they should handle this problem problem on their own, "like any other business"; perhaps you think retail business shouldn't solicit law enforcement and other honest citizens in the prevention of shoplifting.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:48 PM   #11
Art Eatman
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Shooting predators is just one form of hunting.

Generally, I've noticed that folks like to eat. Food for the table doesn't magically appear in cans, nor from the meat department at the local Hoggly-Woggly or A&Poo Feed Store.

Feral hogs do great damage to crops. Predators do great damage to livestock.

I ran across an article in this month's "Texas Wildlife" speaking of the disconnect in modern society between rural folks and city folks. Since only some 2% of the workforce is on-farm/ranch, the disconnect is understandable as to why it exists. Sad, though.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:58 PM   #12
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Hey guys:

Life rule # 38........... Never argue with a fool.
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Old September 8, 2011, 09:23 PM   #13
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Postd by twins:

Quote:
I'm a realist....

True, I'm not a farm-boy but it doesn't take much to figure out what makes money, and what doesn't these days (farming/ranching). If you choose the later, its on you, no one else.
Your a realist? ...The way you talk you don't know the meaning of the word 'realist'.

I'm a realist. A realist response to you and your above statement of nonsense is "you, as a tax man, need to figure out every way you can to help the farmer out so he'll stay in business instead of hoping all of them get the same attitude as you and quit raising the food you put in your stomach".

Also, It doesn't take a person with alot of brains to figure out that if the 'tax man' profession became extinct the population could survive... and probably much better at that. Think the population could survive without the farmer/rancher?

I tell ya what, next time you sit down with your calculator, taxing someone to death, sprinkle a bit of salt and pepper on that calculator and see what it taste like.

I'm gonna stop here before I get thrown off TFL but the next time you open your mouth to stick some food in it, Thank a lowly farmer instead of insinuating he's stupid for staying in the business he's in.

Last edited by shortwave; September 8, 2011 at 09:54 PM.
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Old September 8, 2011, 10:01 PM   #14
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This thread is about hunting (I guess), so the argument of pre-emptive justified killing is acceptable in predator/pest hunting? I don't see the hunting in it, it should be call predator/pest eradication. More fodders for anti-hunting advocates.
You probably kill bugs all the time. Give it a rest.
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Old September 8, 2011, 10:11 PM   #15
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twins just makes the basic libertarian argument. ie "people who live in flood plains shouldn't get government aid when it floods".

It's a flawed argument and philosophy, but I bet many of the people who post here consider themselves libertarian.
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Old September 8, 2011, 10:18 PM   #16
twins
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Hey "Realist" Shortwave, you feel better now? Keep throwing those electron punches, I can take it. :0

Art, I appreciate a farmer/rancher when I eat as much as I appreciate the electrical engineer that designed my laptop/Internet so I can type in this thread. That's to say, they get paid for what they did so I don't "think about it" too much if they're going out of business for whatever reason. Now that's as real as it get.

I agree everyone has the right to protect their property/business, but lets not forget we have the upper hand in this situation. I doubt the predatory animal has any other choice than to do what's instinctively part of their nature.

I guess the word "hunting" has a different meaning to each of us.
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Old September 8, 2011, 10:26 PM   #17
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I guess the word "hunting" has a different meaning to each of us.
I think we're all trying to figure out just what it means to you.
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:25 AM   #18
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Coyotes, being a big problem in these parts as there's no natural predators for them other then man, thankfully, our DNR dept. has some common sense and deemed it necessary to have open season on them.

Along with the few yotes I've killed around here, I go up to the Western part of Ohio where there are four adjoining sheep farms consisting of several hundred acres. They lose an average of one sheep a week to yotes. Never going over a two week period without losing at least one.

You can always tell when the pups are starting to get some size to them as the sheep kill ratio seems to go up.

I have shot several there this summer and wished I had more time to spend up there. The four farmers were so thankful we were coming up but knew it was a long drive for us so they went together and bought a camper for us to stay in. We plan on putting a hurtin on the yote population in that area come next spring as our fall/winter deer,rabbit, squirrel and turkey hunting takes most of our time when in season.

One thing I know is that buzzards have to eat as well and I do my best to make that task as easy as I can for them. They love yote carcass.
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Old September 9, 2011, 12:31 PM   #19
twins
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I think we're all trying to figure out just what it means to you.
For me, hunting is for food and recreation within local laws. If I (or a family member/friend) won't eat it, I don't shoot it.

Any other type of firearms discharge at an animal isn't hunting to me. It's just plain shooting to kill an animal to serve the shooter's purpose (self/business/property protection or whatever it may be). I don't agree with some of the purposes expressed within this thread but it's a choice each shooter has to make.

And since we're discussing this in a hunting section, I don't see the hunting aspects of some of the purposes given.

Last edited by twins; September 9, 2011 at 12:45 PM.
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Old September 9, 2011, 01:35 PM   #20
Art Eatman
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Hunting is not just for the package of enjoyments from successfully killing Bambi. It includes the effort at predator control; predators don't volunteer for euthanasia. Skill at hunting is common to the success at killing either Bambi or Wily.

An example of the economic result of predator control. I happen to know that the rancher used hunting as well as trapping. Fresh out of college, he borrowed the money to put 1,000 goats on the 7,000-acre ranch. That next spring he gained a 60% kid crop.

After a year of intense predator control, the next spring saw an 80% kid crop.

That's an increase of 200 goats. From Post #1, call it $160 x 200 = $32,000.

Happy banker, happy tax man, happy wife and kids.

I mentioned cougar depredation earlier. FWIW, I know from personal experience that cougar meat is yummy tasty. So: When shooting a cougar, is that predator control or hunting in the sense that twins uses the word?
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
An example of the economic result predator control....
Art,

Wouldn't keeping the tax man out of your business be another example of economic predator control?
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:45 PM   #22
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They use to hang horse thieves. !!

As I've posted before, nothing has a right to live forever and there should be a reason for killing any animal. To me, it falls into two catagories; Hunting for food or killing for a conservation effort. Predators fall under the latter. One example the Controlled hunts we have in Iowa to reduce the Whitetail deer population. In my book, these are not really hunts but a conservation efforts even though most of the meat is donated. Same goes for Coyotes, Ferral cats and dogs. Now, in Iowa, you are suppose to shoot any feral hogs. I don't know how they would enforce that but hunters will comply. There are a few and again, it's a conservation effort. As far as I'm concerned, killing to protect livestock, has always been accepted and yes, ethical. ....

Be Safe !!!
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Old September 9, 2011, 03:07 PM   #23
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For me, hunting is for food and recreation within local laws. If I (or a family member/friend) won't eat it, I don't shoot it.

Any other type of firearms discharge at an animal isn't hunting to me.
So we are back to the George Carlin analogy that anyone that drives faster than you is an idiot and anyone who drives slower is a moron. In other words, if it doesn't fit what you like, it isn't right.

But this isn't about the issue of whether or not it is hunting, but whether or not it is okay to kill animals preying upon your livestock. You don't think that is right. However, I am sure you are more than willing to kill rats, mice, insects, and other invertebrates that invade your home or place of business, or probably more correctly, have a service do it for you. Why would that be okay to protect your real property from pests but not your other property such as livestock?

I find it odd that you are against killing to protect livestock, but you are more than content to kill for recreational purposes. Strange ethics.
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Old September 9, 2011, 03:44 PM   #24
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I kind of wonder if a, say a mountain lion sneaks up on twins little kids while playing in the yard,,, no that's not even close how about twins garden gets over run by rabbits,,, uh no maybe a giant rat steals all his twins munchies from the pantry,,,, I'm just saying,,,,, Honestly the farmer has enough pain, and when a late night feeding, or killing binge of a mountian lion costs him a months wages then hell yes shoot some predators, farming put close on my mothers familie's back for over one hundred years Two generations!!
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Old September 9, 2011, 04:05 PM   #25
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"Twins", huh? I didn't know trolls could have twins...
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