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Old September 6, 2011, 12:56 PM   #1
blincoln
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CCW and Posted No Firearms Rules

Hello,

I went to the zoo in Denver the other day and noticed that they have posted in the window "No Firearms".

Since then I have noticed it in several places, such as malls, restraunts, and recently at the Taste of Colorado event conducted outside in downtown Denver.

My question is (and I apologize if its a dumb question): If you are a CCW carrier going to a location that has a posted No Firearms rule, do their requirements superecede your permit to carry?

I know that in theory since its CCW they cant see it anyways so you will "be ok", but I am looking for a more legal-legitimate answer to go by for future reference.

I am taking my CCW course in two weeks and this may be answered there, but I am curious now...

Last edited by blincoln; September 6, 2011 at 01:02 PM.
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Old September 6, 2011, 01:05 PM   #2
BarryLee
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Check out the WEB site below it has some good information. According to what they have on their site if posted it is illegal to carry in these location in the State of Colorado. This varies from state to state, but even if it is not illegal to carry generally if asked to leave you must or risk arrest for trespassing.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/
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Old September 6, 2011, 03:24 PM   #3
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Check out the site BarryLee suggested.

I am unsure of what the laws are in Colorado. However every state has a variation of this. In Ohio, for example, any sign that says no guns allowed or has a gun with the international "no" sign over it are legally binding and carry the force of law - you will be charged if caught. Wording of these signs is not specified.

In Texas, signs must be according to a specific format and must be worded properly to be legally binding.

In other states, signs are not legally binding at all and you can walk right past them, however if the property owner wishes, they can request that you leave the premises - refusing to do so is grounds to be charged with trespassing.
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Old September 6, 2011, 03:50 PM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
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As others have said, the legal status depends on your location.

However, I consider the signs to be MORALLY binding and feel that disregarding them is dishonest.

I also consider them to be an active indicator that the proprietor does not want my business, I will spend my money elsewhere and I will tell them so.

I had the experience at Chuckie Cheese's last year, and had a couple of threads running about their response. I have not and will not return to their establishment.
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Old September 6, 2011, 03:53 PM   #5
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They didn't post those signs hoping the criminals would read them and change their minds, so yes - they are directed at you, the CCW person. Whether that carries any legal weight is up to the laws in your location
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Old September 8, 2011, 12:56 AM   #6
youngunz4life
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Quote:
Do “No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
“YES”
18-12-214. Authority Granted By Permit - Carrying Restrictions.
(5) nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.
In some states you do not have to heed the sign, but you must leave immediately if told to by someone who knows you are carrying(otherwise you are guilty of a crime). In other words, in some states you can ignore the signs as long as it isn't against federal or state law(examples: federal courthouse, a statepark IF it is banned, etc // a personal business wouldn't count).

ALL THAT BEING SAID, in Colorado you must obey the sign even if it is a small personal business, the zoo, etc, etc. You were breaking the law by carrying in these places. I believe it is only a misdemeanor and you can just claim you didn't know(basically just common sense 'damage control'). Anyways, I believe CO is in the minority with that law, so that sort of sux. I hope this helps.
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Old September 8, 2011, 05:11 AM   #7
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blincoln
My question is (and I apologize if its a dumb question): If you are a CCW carrier going to a location that has a posted No Firearms rule, do their requirements superecede your permit to carry?
In general -- No.

To steal shamelessly from a Dolly Parton song, "What part of 'No' don't you understand?"
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Old October 4, 2011, 12:51 AM   #8
blincoln
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I finally took my ccw course a couple weeks ago and they did discuss this topic. Unless the sign posted list a specific ordnance which they are falling under you can carry a weapon in the location. Of course this excludes locations that it is illegal to carry such as federal buildings, schools, etc. You can however be asked to leave.

This is of course specific to Colorado.

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Old October 4, 2011, 05:31 AM   #9
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I would suggest that you look up the applicable Colorado statute and read it yourself. I am not comfortable accepting that the signs have to cite the ordnance in order to be legal. I know some states (such as Texas) specify the language and (in Texas) even the typeface and size of lettering, but I am not aware of any state that requires the sign to cite the law.
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Old October 4, 2011, 05:43 AM   #10
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I was gonna mention it earlier, but this definately deserves a 2nd opinion. Look at it this way if it makes you feel better: "Your CCW instructor is probably right." That being said, laws change, and he might not be correct w/regards to this.

Another example is driving school. I wasn't gonna push it with the guy when I was younger(yeah, one too many tickets...another schoolkid gettin a lesson in life). Afterall he was real nice, SET IN HIS WAYS, 3times my age, etc, but I knew he was wrong when he claimed our state could prosecute and/or send me a bill for going thru a redlight. I knew 100% this was illegal. Our state's citizens didn't allow the law to make final law due to privacy concerns. Now in Washington DC, Delaware, and some other states it is perfectly legal. Someone asked a question, and he was sure of himself.

From what I have always understood, either the signs have a force of law in your state or any given state, or they do not. If I private business has a sign, why would it have to show an ordinance on it? It just doesn't seem right to me. I could be wrong, and I just do not know for sure. Are there other Colorado TFL's on here? The only one I found was my earlier post citing www.handgunlaw.us
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Old October 4, 2011, 05:48 AM   #11
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Here's the Texas version straight from the Department of Public Safety's web site:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/adminis...ignposting.htm
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Old October 4, 2011, 05:28 PM   #12
Aguila Blanca
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But the thread is about Colorado. How about someone who actually knows the answer posting what Colorado law says on the matter ...
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Old October 4, 2011, 06:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
If you are a CCW carrier going to a location that has a posted No Firearms rule, do their requirements superecede your permit to carry?
It differs from state to state and it pays to know what applies where.

As posted above, www.handgunlaw.us is a great place to start your research. Your instructor should be able to explain the laws to you when you take your course however.
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Old October 4, 2011, 08:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
I consider the signs to be MORALLY binding and feel that disregarding them is dishonest.
I feel attempting to prevent people from defending our lives and exercising our Second Amendment rights is morally outrageous. My life trumps anti-Second Amendment bigotry.

Quote:
...the thread is about Colorado. How about someone who actually knows the answer posting what Colorado law says on the matter...
I live in Colorado and have taught both firearms safety and a Colorado-oriented CCW class. Except for legally prohibited places, (primary and secondary schools, for example, and federal property,) signs prohibiting concealed carry do not carry the force of law. If you're asked to leave, and if you refuse, you can be cited for trespassing. Open carry is a bit stickier, since it's prohibited by law in some cities, Denver included.

All that said™, I don't do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.
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Old October 5, 2011, 04:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
But the thread is about Colorado.
Yes it is Aguila Blanca, but you brought up Texas law and it needed clarity
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Old October 5, 2011, 07:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
I finally took my ccw course a couple weeks ago and they did discuss this topic. Unless the sign posted list a specific ordnance which they are falling under you can carry a weapon in the location. Of course this excludes locations that it is illegal to carry such as federal buildings, schools, etc. You can however be asked to leave.

This is of course specific to Colorado.
vs.

Quote:
I live in Colorado and have taught both firearms safety and a Colorado-oriented CCW class. Except for legally prohibited places, (primary and secondary schools, for example, and federal property,) signs prohibiting concealed carry do not carry the force of law.
Funny how our two of our Colorado posters have both stated opposing views on what the law says, yet nobody has actually cited the actual law(s) to support their claims.
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Old October 5, 2011, 08:17 AM   #17
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
vs.



Funny how our two of our Colorado posters have both stated opposing views on what the law says, yet nobody has actually cited the actual law(s) to support their claims.
DNS,

I don't think those are "opposing" claims. They both say that the signs carry no force of law, just one poster claims that there are specific ordinances that would make the sign legally binding.

In general, they are in agreement. It's only the "specific ordinance" citing that might be different.
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Old October 5, 2011, 08:36 AM   #18
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www.handgunlaw.us states that Colorado signs carry THE FORCE OF LAW. Of course, they do the best they can on the site and there can and will be transitionary periods before laws can be updated. That's not counting the fact that the site isn't a legal site. Someone would have to research the laws themselves. I use the site for a 'roughdraft' before taking a trip with the family to know if I "must notify an Officer", if I am "allowed to CCW within said state", etc. This doesn't mean that I am protected in any way.
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Old October 5, 2011, 08:37 AM   #19
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I have had my Texas ccw since 1999, and the way I understand
the law about carrying is that you cant carry in government
buildings, hospitals, or churches. If a private business does not
want firearms carried in their business, they can put up a sign,
but it carries no legal penalties other than simple trespassing.
If they notice your gun, they can ask you to leave, but thats
all. Obviously, if you dont leave, they can file trespassing
charges against you.
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Old October 5, 2011, 09:50 AM   #20
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That is not correct about TX - please read up on the way the laws work.

The link is earlier in the thread from CowTowner.
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Old October 5, 2011, 10:44 AM   #21
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In Colorado, the Revised Statutes say this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CRS 18-12-214-5
Nothing in this section...shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.
My interpretation of this statute is that your CCW permit does not trump a "No Firearms" sign on private property.

The Colorado Revised Statutes are online at http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext...main-h.htm&cp=
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Old October 5, 2011, 12:23 PM   #22
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I thought about adding information about No Gun Signs to each state page at Handgunlaw.us for 2 years before I did it. It is a mine field and most laws are not black and white on this as they are in most sates on Applying for a Permit/License to Carry or how to obtain a Drivers License etc etc. These are all spelled out. Some states like Texas make it easy when it comes to No Gun Signs. Then other states make it very difficult.

The Laws pertaining to Signs are usually found in the Trespass Laws and not the firearm laws. Colorado is one of those ?????? mark states when it is not really spelled out but is a gray area. Handgunlaw.us will err on the side of caution when it is not perfectly clear. I have found out when I put something on a state page that may not be correct I usually hear about it very quickly. I have not heard from one person about the CO page saying they have the force of law.

In Michigan I have two State RKBA's groups who have opposite views. One says they do have the force of law and the other says they don't have the force of law. Then Case Law would come into play in most states.

Laws are written gray so the facts of any case can be plugged into it. If it is to black and white then things can't be plugged into it. They try to write laws as broad as they can.

Then we have to look at things not mentioned in the laws. Almost all laws are written saying you have to do it this way or you can't do that. So if there is no law against something then you can do it. Then Case Law has a huge impact. Then you have AG Opinions that could have a part in any charge. Just because an AG states in an opinion it is or is not legal is not the law. It is an Opinion but most local PA's will go with what the AG Opinion states but they don't have to.

Hard part is saying something is legal because you can't find anything that says it is illegal. There are so many questions about this or that when it comes to firearms there is no way for anyone to have all the CORRECT answers. What I like is people are trying to find the right answers and trying to stay within the law. I think that shows just how law abiding those who carry firearms are.
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Old October 5, 2011, 12:41 PM   #23
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A store, business or restaurant that post no firearms allowed signs.....I do not enter. Nor do I spend my money there.
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Old October 5, 2011, 12:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
All that said™, I don't do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.
What makes you think they are second A bigots? Because MAYBE their insurance carrier would drop them otherwise?

Unless you have proof they are adamant against the 2A, don't go all holier-than-thou on them, many have very valid business reasons for doing what they are doing - whether or not you agree with them
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Old October 5, 2011, 01:01 PM   #25
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oneounceload,

Self defense is a basic human right. There is no such thing as a valid reason -- let alone a valid business reason -- to deny basic human rights to those who have done no wrong.

To prohibit people from carrying the tools of effective self defense is as morally indefensible as to deny entrance to people who use wheelchairs for mobility.

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