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Old September 9, 2011, 08:40 PM   #126
trophyrider
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Respectfully, you're not a cop, you're not the Gestapo. Don't try playing one. The best you should be able to do is throw them out. You don't need a breathalyzer for that, just throw them out.
Zincwarrior, you're right, I am not a cop nor do I wish to be one. I really don't appreciate being referred to as Gestapo even if it was done respectfully . I do not know what your profession is or how knowledgeable you are about the Michigan codes dealing with education, but I would venture you do not have any idea what you are talking about. I also imagine you do not even come close to understanding what is required of a teacher by the state, community in general, and parents in providing a safe environment for students. I will tell you this sir, if a student is in my classroom talking about scoring or selling drugs, he is going to get searched. If I am chaperoning a dance and a student appears to be drunk, if I have the means, he or she is going to be tested. If that student leaves the dance under the influence of alcohol or whatever substance and proceeds to hurt themselves that's bad enough. I would have to live with that and the fact that I am going to lose my job and most likely be hit with a civil suit. Apparently though, I did not make myself clear earlier, I DO NOT THINK THAT TESTING EVERY PERSON THAT ENTERED THE DANCE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO A BREATHALYZER. As it has already been stated, the message this sends to the students is that we don't trust them, and that is not the way to build a good relationship.

MLeake, the schools of the '70s are not the schools of today. I grew up in the 70's, I was there. Discipline was a lot different then. If you screwed up, you would pay the price, at school and then when you got home, mom or dad was going to take care of business too. Like I said earlier, I do not want to get into a long discussion about changes, but the one I have noticed the most is the amount of single parent households there are now compared to when I was in school. It was rare among my classmates that there were not two parents in the household. Today the norm is more single parent households. It's rare if my students have both parents at home. Even if they have both parents at home, I see such a lack of parenting skills. The line I hear the most now when talking to a parent about their child is "I just don't know what to do with him/her." I always want to tell the there is nothing you can do, you lost that battle years ago. Maybe this is not the norm where you live. I can tell you it is what I am seeing where I live and work because I graduated from the same school district where I teach.
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:22 PM   #127
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trophyrider,

Thank You for your dedication in our education system.

I know a guy that spent four years in college to become a teacher. His mother was an Asst. Vice Principal and he wanted to follow in her footsteps.

He graduated college, taught school for a few years.
He's currently a car sales mgr. as he no longer could deal with the lack of respect shown by the students with no means of dealing with problems as there was no backing from parents or administrative staff.
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:52 PM   #128
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trophyrider, my uncle retired in 2003; my godson just finished a year at community college, and has just started at WVU, and my younger cousins are in elementary through high school. I am not involved in anywhere near the same way you are, but the stories I hear are a bit more current than the 70's and 80's.

I still think the way to deal with problem kids is to actually deal with problem kids - and their parents, when necessary.

The right way is not to treat all kids as if they are problems waiting to happen. Based on your last post, you seem to agree.
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:54 PM   #129
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Yes, I was speaking of a current school. This same school still deals out "swats" for many transgressions too.

Brent
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Old September 9, 2011, 11:09 PM   #130
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Yes, I was speaking of a current school. This same school still deals out "swats" for many transgressions too.
Oooh, you had to bring that up didn't you. My butt is stinging just thinking about it. lol

Ah.....the good ol days. Hurry up and get them Gym shorts on under your pants.


I've opened a can a worms and their crawling out faster than a falling prom dress........

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Old September 10, 2011, 07:38 AM   #131
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I still think the way to deal with problem kids is to actually deal with problem kids - and their parents, when necessary.

The right way is not to treat all kids as if they are problems waiting to happen. Based on your last post, you seem to agree.
MLeake, I agree 100% with a little tweak to your statement. You don't treat any student as a problem waiting to happen. You deal with people as individuals. Teaching is a second career for me, this is my 10th year. I spent 20 years working in the grocery business, 15 of them in a management capacity as an assistant, and then the store director. The best part of that job was working with the young kids, depending on the store I was in, as many as 50 to 60 of them. Even back then I marveled how good some kids were despite how bad their parents were.

The only statements I have had a problem with is some of the rhetoric flying around about the indoctrination of the youth, turning them into good, little compliant subjects. I guess the best thing I can say about that is I'm glad some people read George Orwell's 1984. You should also read Animal Farm. It's just as good.

If you don't like what is going on in your schools, get involved. I wish more parents did.

Thank you Shortwave. There are days I wondered what the heck I was thinking when I decided to be a teacher, but I wouldn't trade it for anything.
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Old September 10, 2011, 07:57 AM   #132
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hogs, I wished all schools today were like the one your kids currently attend...

...but.. just an update on the school kid that had his throat cut last week at a school in West Cols., Ohio. Just saw an update.

Apparently there was no fight at all, not even any words spoken between the two. They had never seen each other before. This happened during class and the two kids didn't even know one another.

As they were sitting in their seats, the attacker just got up walked over to the other boy and cut his throat. Didn't say anything to him whatsoever.

Both the boys are 14yrs old.

Just a pure shame...14yrs old!
And think about it, we've got 13-14yr olds out on the streets packing guns.

Do ya think things are changing from the way they used to be?

Can anyone remember violent crimes like this happening at their schools when you were attending?
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Old September 10, 2011, 09:58 AM   #133
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csnsss: "...That said, this raises a larger issue - what message are we sending to our children when we assume that ALL of them are incipient lawbreakers and must be handled as such?…"

I agree! So welcome to the New World. Where at checkout counters 60-year
old citizens have to show identity to buy beer or cigarettes because 'we ID
all purchasers.' Where 'safety stops' assume everyone driving on the road is
a law-breaker one way or another until all the proper papers and certificates
are shown. Where, during hunting season I must remove all ammo from my
truck gun because F&G can stop me on a public road, inspect my weapon and
if finding it not empty, consider it prima facie evidence that I am 'hunting from
a public road' and issue me a ticket and fine.
My opinion, these school exercises are just preparation for the
Big Brother world they are entering. A world where LEO's are on one side and
us 'civilians' are considered 'possible suspects' on the other. It is indeed a
terrible way to treat any group of people and is definitely intentionally
disrespectful to us all.
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Old September 10, 2011, 10:46 AM   #134
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I never did like going to the prom when I was in High School - only went to one. Not the smartest thing I've ever done, but on prom night we just got a bunch of girls and guys together, rented a couple of motel rooms and bring our own liquor and beer. Drinking age was 18 then.

Schools can try to clamp down on teen bad behavior, but by the time they are 16, 17 and 18 teens are smart enough (and stupid enough) to simply find somewhere else to drink alcohol and do what teens are going to do anyway.

Using brethalizers at school proms is unnecessary and pushes kids to "beat the system" some other way. It's not hard to spot a drunk teenager - you don't need a brethalizer. And, buy this time, they need to start making that transition into adulthood. That means some degree of trust and freedom from adults not monitoring their every move.

Otherwise, teens will secretly buy their booze, guns and other "banned items" and find ways to use them outside of the supervision of adults. I know I did. When your government made the drinking age 21 it really has some drawbacks. By the time someone is legally allowed to drink alcoholic beverages, they don't have their parents around to teach them how to drink responsibly. Used to be that a father could share a beer with his 16 or 17 year old son and this was no big deal. Now, the child would probably be hauled away for being abused and the father jailed for enabling under-aged drinking. Is this really the society you want to live in?
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Old September 12, 2011, 10:20 AM   #135
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Personally, I abhore the erosion of our rights, beginning with the end of the Civil War. (Let's not talk history, but barring the obvious results of the Civil War, what ACTUALLY happened? More consolidation of power by the federal government, by taking power away from the states... and by extension, the individual.) That said, looking at the "sue-happiness" of parents/student versus teachers/school administrators, what other choice did they have?

I don't like; I don't condone it. But, I UNDERSTAND it. I see why the school resorts to this kind of stuff. Rather than single out the troublemakers and not allow them to attend ("I was discriminated...") they are forced to take *ahem* safety measures at the event. The biggest problem is the "Lord of the Flies" effect with today's kids. Too many parents aren't involved in their kids, relying on the school to instill manners, tact, and ethics.

I learned those at home. I APPLIED them in school- I didn't cheat, I tutored others when I was able, and tried to ADD to the lives of my fellow students. I wasn't perfect, though, I did my share of dumb stuff: fighting, racing at the old "Test Track," and the like. But I would've never gone to an event (especially one where I would have to drive home) drinking.
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Old September 12, 2011, 10:58 AM   #136
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Given the situation in today's society where more and more women are having children and raising fatherless animals, schools really need to go back the the basics: teach children to read, write, do math, science, history and some form of basic business/economics.

Simply eliminate things like: prom, basketball, football, baseball, all other sports, all clubs, anything other than the very basic reason we have schools.

Those parents and students who are interested in sports, social activities, dances, clubs, religious activities, additional learning, or whatever, can do this privately. And, pay for it privately - where it is a privilege to participate. For those "students" who can't even control themselves to sit through the basic courses, put them in trade school, or require that they work as "apprentices" on farms, factories, etc.

When we reach the point as a society where we need to give kids brethalizers for "liability reasons" before they can go to a dance, something is seriously screwed up. Its time to make mothers and fathers responsible for their kids activities and learning. Strip all of this stuff away from public schools!!
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Old September 12, 2011, 11:24 AM   #137
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Thank you, Skans. Reading your post clarified my thoughts on the issue. How can we expect our children and teens to have any "personal responsibility" if we take no responsibility for them in their formative years? By passing on the education/morals/ethics of our kids to the school (state) aren't we "training" them to rely on the state for their ideals, protection, and goals? Isn't THAT criminal? What ever happened to "Self-Reliance," or are the ideals of Thoreau gone from America?
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Old September 12, 2011, 11:51 AM   #138
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As someone who taught both first and third graders, I will say this - the issues you are seeing are not endemic to only middle and high school; it seems to especially reside in those who are members of "The Welfare State" who will gladly relinquish any responsibility and costs to someone else for their children, as long as that check comes in.

When they learn at a very early age that they can abscond with being responsible, it just escalates to the levels now prevalent in the upper grades.

I also taught an alternative class - mine was Elementary - had 2-5th graders - some were there for attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon - nice for an 8 year old kid - what parents were in the picture are the kind that should have been subjected to a retroactive abortion on themselves.

Unfortunately, there is no clear answer as the school district has to CYA in today's society.

Maybe some remember the girl in TX who wanted to play on the boys' football team - her parents sued to make it happen. First game she got hurt, her parents sued for allowing that to happen

People want BIG government to take their responsibilities away, but then want to sue when it happens.

Just announce their will be a breathalyzer test before going in, those who won't pass won't enter - most likely the best thing that could happen - alcohol and teen testosterone do not mix well
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Old September 12, 2011, 11:52 AM   #139
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If I am chaperoning a dance and a student appears to be drunk, if I have the means, he or she is going to be tested.
What if the student says no?
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Old September 12, 2011, 12:05 PM   #140
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This is my final answer to you. Then that student will be prevented from leaving the best I can. I am not going to physically restrain them, but at this point the police would have been contacted and on the way.

You asking this question tells me you do not understand what is required, by law, of school personnel when it comes to situations like this.
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Old September 12, 2011, 12:14 PM   #141
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Its a multistate forum, laws are different by jurisidiction. Further, just because its a law doesn't make it constitutional.

Again, what is the purpose of you8r attempt to restrain them? Attempting to restrain someone from leaving is a crime here. If you physically touch them thats battery and they can defend themselves.

Morally, the thought some teacher is going to try to give a breathalyzer test to one of my kids would draw a response far beyond a lawsuit. You can deny them entry but attempting to force a breathalyzer is a completely different animal.

Now don't mistake that I have something against teachers. We're actually on the same side here. I don't think teachers should have to deal with that sort of thing. They aren't trained to do it, they aren't paid to do it, and I don't think any signed up to do that.

Last edited by zincwarrior; September 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM.
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Old September 12, 2011, 12:46 PM   #142
trophyrider
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Again, what is the purpose of you8r attempt to restrain them? Attempting to restrain someone from leaving is a crime here. If you physically touch them thats battery and they can defend themselves.
Where did I say I was going to physically restrain them? I said I wasn't going to do that. I would do what I could short of physical restraint to keep a suspected drunk kid out of a car. If I could get a friend to take them home, great.

I also said if it was at my disposal, I would use one on a student I thought was drunk. If they came in staggering, slurring words, or exhibiting indicating behavior, then and only then would I use a breathalyzer if I had one. To just randomly check students or check all students regardless is just wrong.

I will say this. If a kid shows up for school function drunk, are allowed to drive home, and get into an accident, the school and the people responsible are legally liable. I hate to break this too you, but so are employers if an employee showed up and did the same thing. I am sure if it was your child that it happened too, you would be screaming for someones head to roll.
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Old September 12, 2011, 01:33 PM   #143
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Yes, I was speaking of a current school. This same school still deals out "swats" for many transgressions too.
A thing of the past in the State of Ohio's school system's. At least all of them I know of.

Reason:

Today, its been deemed by someone that that form of punishment also infringes on the basic rights of individuals and cross's the line of what schools are alllowed to do.

Quote:
The system has become gutless and braindead
...and so have a big majority of parents raising kids today.

Todays society is set up for a family having a two household income. There's no longer a parent at home when kids get out of school. Both parents are at work and kids are at the babysitters or in many cases are at home by themselves till mom/dad get home.

Couple that with the fact that what mehavey pointed out of sooo many single-parent homes.....one has to wonder, who's teaching kids today how to act period.

For someone to think the ratio of kids today is not greater when compared to years ago thta children, don't have the respect , don't value the life or the basic rights of others and will do things which the majority of kids years ago would not even think of doing ...well, are just not involved enough in whats happening in alot of todays homes and schools.

The same 'sue happy' parents that want to sue the school when something bad happens to their child while at school are usually the same parents that for whatever reason(working jobs that don't let them spend enough time with their kids or just plain don't care enough to spend time with them), want the schools to teach their kids what the parents should be teaching them at home.
But on the other hand, wants to demand to the school how to teach the kids these basic manors(which is not the schools job) and the school better not step on the childs basic rights...or I'm gonna sue.

Another mind boggling story in Cols., Ohio:

A Game called 'Knockout'.

Groups of kids(consisting in numbers of 10-15) ages 13-18 would get together after school and roam the inner city parks looking for usually mid to older aged people.

The object of the game was for all the kids to walk up to this person and one designated kid would punch them, trying to knock them out with one shot.

A group of these kids were arrested and during the court proceedings, the local news was down at the courthouse interviewing some of the parents of the kids arrested. When the question was asked of them as to how they felt of their child being arrested, the replies were astounding. Two or three mothers standing there together felt the charges filed on their sons were way to harsh and the one spoke up and said, "Its just a game they were playing". Which that response was amen'ed by the others.
Wonder why these kids are doing what they're doing?

These are the same kids that may be going to school sitting next to a good student that arbitrarily decides to get up, walk over to the good student and cut his/her throat in the middle of class such as happened in Cols. last week.

Do we sit back, stay on the defensive side and wait for something bad to happen to that good kid, maybe at the hands of a bad kid?
Then react.

Do we try to go on the offensive and apply new rules when we see a pattern of something occurring that we want to head off?
Which was the reason of me asking in an earlier post, "had this school had previous issues with alcohol related incidents."

Taking all this into consideration and not forgetting these good kids that have the RIGHT to go to school safely without harm from a bad kid or without harm from a kid not known to be a bad kid but does something stupid one night at a dance by drinking, taking some pills,smoking a joint,etc., then leaving the dance with two or three others kids in his/her car and they don't make it home ...

... Just where do we draw the line?
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Old September 12, 2011, 01:44 PM   #144
zincwarrior
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I don't see what any of that has to do with a breathalyzer.

I don't have a problem with not allowing kids into a dance for any reason unless it violates civil rights issues (ie - 1964 Civil Rights legislation).

I don't have a problem throwing kids out of the dance for any reason unless it violates civil rights issues.

I don't have a problem disciplinging the little demons for actions they take in the dance.

Yet, none of that, none of that, has anything to do with a breathalyzer.
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Old September 12, 2011, 03:17 PM   #145
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Yet none of that, none of that, has anything to do with a breathalyzer
Much of what I posted does not have to do with the school breathalyzer but may bear on the fact as to why a breathalyzer was deemed necessary by the school officials at Hitthespots school.

Some had also made remarks of "Whats next metal detectors, pregnancy test, drug screening etc".


Again, did anyone go to the school to ask the reason for the breathalyzer?

Were there prior dances where some of the angels showed up drunk or had been drinking? Accidents coming/leaving prior school functions? Someone even busted during school hrs in the parking lot drinking?

I also asked if prior notice was possibly sent home with the kids. The reason I asked that question was that very well could have been an explanation as to 'why' in the notice.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, some have condemned this school for doing this and we don't know why they did it in the first place. Maybe to some, there isn't any reason the school could do this that is acceptable.

But as a parent, I'd sure want to know a couple why's...

I'd want to know if the school did in fact send prior notification home with my child to give to me.

If they did, I'd want to know from my child, why he/she didn't get it to me.

If they didn't, I'd want to know why they didn't.

If there were past incidents, I'd want to know how many incidents and the kids involved in the past incidents so I could keep an eye on who my kid was loafing with.

I'm sure I can think of a few more 'why's' but I know I'd have to find out a few things before I started condemning the schools decision to do what they did.

If after all my 'why's' were answered and in fact the school did this due to prior incidents but I still felt the school didn't act appropriately, I'd have to ask myself if I was willing to devote my time in the future to insure the breathalyzer wasn't needed at extra-curricular school functions. I.E. volunteer chaperoning at future school dances, working the gate at sports events etc.

Last edited by shortwave; September 12, 2011 at 03:28 PM.
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Old September 12, 2011, 03:32 PM   #146
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Again, did anyone go to the school to ask the reason for the breathalyzer?
***Sorry I’m not putting in the commitment to drive more than a thousand miles. You have me there.

Were there prior dances where some of the angels showed up drunk or had been drinking? Accidents coming/leaving prior school functions? Someone even busted during school hrs in the parking lot drinking?
***So? Kick them off property. You don’t need a breathalyzer to do that.

I also asked if prior notice was possibly sent home with the kids. The reason I asked that question was that very well could have been an explanation as to 'why' in the notice.
***Maybe indeed. Still doesn’t help. As above, kick them off the property or don’t allow them in, in the first place.

Maybe to some, there isn't any reason the school could do this that is acceptable.
***As a parent I say…BINGO!
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Old September 12, 2011, 03:33 PM   #147
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shortwave, the counter to your arguments (all of them) is the same counter we all use when talking about gun control:

Nail the offenders when they commit the crime. Make examples of them. Make it predictably painful each and every time.

Do NOT regulate/nanny-state/BigBrother everybody, in hopes of prevention.

Or is it really different, when it's "for the children?"
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Old September 12, 2011, 03:38 PM   #148
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Its even easier in this circumstance. The child has no rights to go to a dance. Ejection or denial of entrance are easier than a normal school situation.

If it gets to be a pain for the school just don't have the events.
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Old September 12, 2011, 03:43 PM   #149
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shortwave, the counter to your arguments (all of them) is the same counter we all use when talking about gun control:

Nail the offenders when they commit the crime. Make examples of them. Make it predictably painful each and every time.

Do NOT regulate/nanny-state/BigBrother everybody, in hopes of prevention.

Or is it really different, when it's "for the children?"
I'm just thinking the school/school district is making it harder than it needs to be, and going from easy maintenance of order to potential violations of rights. Additional questions:
*What happens if drugged out Johnny scores a Bingo on the test? Are the police called? If not why not? Is there now some sort of permanent record? What if its a false positive? Now there could be a lawsuit.

*Do you want teachers having to administer breathalyzer tests? I don't think they received a BA/MA to give out Breath tests. It would definitely make me rethink my career path. If its the nurse, do you want to be the nurse (potentially volunteer nurse) involved in that?
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Old September 12, 2011, 03:48 PM   #150
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Or is it really different, when its "for the children?"
You may have said that in a sarcastic way, but I'll say this, since we are dealing with children that are usually more easily influenced by their peers than adults and many times don't make the right 'spur of the moment' choice's...should we be dealing with them differently?

Quote:
***As a parent I say...BINGO!
Okay, so you wouldn't hold the school accountable if GOD forbid your child left an after school function with another child which was drinking and got in a wreck?

Also, your thoughts on metal detectors in schools along with locker searchs?
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