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Old September 9, 2011, 05:27 AM   #101
BlueTrain
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We sure have a lot of things that are crimes, don't we? Have we seen a rise in crime rates or do we have more things that are illegal these days?

I must have been so out of it when I was in high school that I can scarcely relate to some of these issues. I never went to a school dance. I didn't drive until I owned a car after getting out of the army when I was 22. The high school my mother graduated from (which was the junior high I went to) had no parking lot at all, so I guess not many drove to school then and not many did when I was in high school, although it had a parking lot.

Some of the comments here are clear explanations of why alcohol was prohibited (with a constitutional admendment, no less) and still is in some places. Adults can't handle it.
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Old September 9, 2011, 06:18 AM   #102
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What does this have to do with the school? The School is acting like Big Sis. Its not their place.

people should be fired, tarred and feathered in proper revolutionary fashion.

Alternatively, as the parent of a 16 year old, as someone else posted its his problem. I'm just waiting to go "fly little birdie fly!" and convert his room into a proper reloading mancave. "What? The key doesn't work? Oh sorry we changed the locks. Did I forget to tell you?"
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Old September 9, 2011, 07:11 AM   #103
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Ben Franklin would be appalled, as would John Adams and others.

George Orwell would feel the mixed emotions of sadness and vindication. (Both here and in the UK.)
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Old September 9, 2011, 07:58 AM   #104
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Test them and be done w/ it.




(post script: How many here are currently teachers in either Middle or High School ? I'd be interested in your take.)
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:31 AM   #105
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Next, we can have a thread on telling them kids to get off the danged lawn....

I remember reading, as a kid, how each generation thinks the next one or two are just going straight to hell... and how this pattern has repeated itself since at least the Age of Reason, when people started taking note of it.

(But I suspect Julius Caesar's peers were worrying about what Augustus and his cronies were getting into...)
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:31 AM   #106
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I am currently a teacher in an alternative high school and I have previously taught in a junior high, and a regular high school. I have also been a chaperone at a few dances and had the option of using of a breathalyzer if I felt it was warranted. I do not agree with subjecting every student that enters the dance to test, that's just overkill. If you think the school has NO reason to use a breathlyzer at a dance though, you are sorely mistaken.

If you think that there is no difference between kids today and the generations before them, you are wrong. I am not going to go into a dissertation on all the societal changes, greater poliferation of mood altering prescription drugs, and changes in family structure, but believe me, things are different.
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Old September 9, 2011, 09:36 AM   #107
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trophyrider, you are describing using a test based on observed behavior - which is something I am ok with. I still think Articulable Suspicion should be the minimum, if not Probable Cause, and you are describing Articulable Suspicion.
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Old September 9, 2011, 10:02 AM   #108
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Quote:
I am currently a teacher in an alternative high school and I have previously taught in a junior high, and a regular high school. I have also been a chaperone at a few dances and had the option of using of a breathalyzer if I felt it was warranted. I do not agree with subjecting every student that enters the dance to test, that's just overkill. If you think the school has NO reason to use a breathlyzer at a dance though, you are sorely mistaken.

If you think that there is no difference between kids today and the generations before them, you are wrong. I am not going to go into a dissertation on all the societal changes, greater poliferation of mood altering prescription drugs, and changes in family structure, but believe me, things are different.
Respectfully, you're not a cop, you're not the Gestapo. Don't try playing one. The best you should be able to do is throw them out. You don't need a breathalyzer for that, just throw them out.
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Old September 9, 2011, 10:03 AM   #109
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trophyrider, some dynamics are different.

Others, well... let's just say my mother had to deal with similar issues when she taught high school in the 70's.

And if you look at the literature, when they added rumble seats to cars, well... Sex isn't new.

Read Faulker sometime, and you'll see that virgins regretting their drinking (and subsequent loss of virginity) isn't a new concept, either.

We had knives when I went to school. All over the place. I carried one most days. Thing is, they were legal then. So, I also agree with posters who've said one reason for rising crime is the rising number of actions that have been criminalized.

Look at all the criminals that were created virtually overnight by the Volstead Act... So increasing the numbers of criminals and felons simply by criminalizing what had previoulsy been normal behavior is, again, nothing new.

Look at my grandparents' days... My grandmother had to drop out of school after 8th grade, to help her ailing, Sicilian immigrant parents raise her four younger siblings.

My grandfather, a Sicilian immigrant himself, never got past 6th grade. His father had him and his brothers out of school, so they could steal (basically). Yep, my great-grandfather was a Sicilian version of Fagin.

The stories my grandfather could tell about the things they did, when he was a teenager, would terrify you.

Read the Dennis Lehane book about the cop in 1918-1919 Boston, with all the cops vs labor brawls; my grandfather took part in some of those. According to the stories he told, Lehane actually paints a rosy picture in his book. Violence was much worse than Lehane depicted (and Lehane painted a fairly gruesome picture).

Oh, on that note, that was violence by the state, against workers, in favor of employers. IE, forcing strikers to go back to work, and using the police and even the National Guard as goons.

You guys who are crying out for Law and Order, be careful what you ask for. It's been given in the past.
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Old September 9, 2011, 10:25 AM   #110
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Respectfully, you're not a cop, you're not the Gestapo. Don't try playing one. The best you should be able to do is throw them out. You don't need a breathalyzer for that, just throw them out.
On what basis? With what evidence? Upon what "due process"?

Clearly you have not lived the atmosphere of fear/intimidation in today's
public) shools, the total powerlessness of the classroom teacher to deal
with discipline issues, and the administration's concern with lawyers and
suffocating layers of policy more than either the teachers or the "good" kids.

That's a sweeping statement to be sure. But fairly accurate.
It also the reason for the rise in private, parochial and home schools.
...and teacher burnout outside of them. Look up the numbers.

As to not being a "cop...."
"Not my responsibility" is the saddest phrase in the English language.
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Old September 9, 2011, 10:29 AM   #111
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mehavey, if you don't know how to recognize and react to bad behavior, but instead need to hide behind a "breathalyze them all" policy, then one of two things are true:

1) You need more training; or

2) Your system needs an internal revamp.

I suspect it's the latter. Most school systems seem to lack intestinal fortitude, individual initiative, and sensible administrators.

And many parents shirk their responsibilities.

Neither of those are justification for treating every kid, hood and honor student alike, as though they are guilty until proven innocent.

If you have a kid who is acting up, deal with that kid.

If the parents don't do their job, take the actions necessary to document the problem and remove the kid.

If the system doesn't back you, find a new system.
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Old September 9, 2011, 10:31 AM   #112
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Lawns?,,,

Quote:
Next, we can have a thread on telling them kids to get off the danged lawn....


'Nuff said?

On a real note,,,
We actually had a neighbor like that.

Old curmudgeon shot my 8 year old sister in the butt,,,
My Pop wrapped that Daisy around his head,,,
1954 was a very different time in the USA.

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Old September 9, 2011, 11:03 AM   #113
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I don't think there are really any constitutional issues at play here. Students are not required to attend school dances; if they don't wish to submit to a breathalyzer, they can simply not attend the dance.

That said, this raises a larger issue - what message are we sending to our children when we assume that ALL of them are incipient lawbreakers and must be handled as such? Responsible, law-abiding youths are treated with the same presumption of guilt as those who are prone to breaking rules/laws. That's a terrible way to treat any group of people, and particularly those who are on the verge of adulthood. It's intentionally disrespectful.
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Old September 9, 2011, 11:51 AM   #114
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what message are we sending to our children when we assume that ALL of them are incipient lawbreakers and must be handled as such
That is incorrect - they are not assuming all to be bad - they are demonstrating the "fairness doctrine" in that no one group over another gets special treatment or singled out - it is started in kindergarten

Another reason for the issue is a potential lawsuit - when that one car does wrap itself around the pole at 3AM, they school can plausibly deny that they were at fault, because they tested every kid.

Your loss of rights, no matter which ones you're concerned with, have come about because of this society's love affair with the lawsuit and the proliferation of lawyers who will blame anyone for anything and sue on behalf of same for a cut of the action
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Old September 9, 2011, 12:13 PM   #115
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Quote:
some dynamics are different
No MANY dynamics are different.

Case-n-point.

When I was in school, the gang problem was virtually non-existant.

Today,I can take you to the South-end of Cols. to an elementary school in which there are guards at the school entrance's as well as guards at the ends of the hallways.

Why, school principal out on recess with the kids was jumped and almost beat to death(broken jaw, broken nose,fractured skull, broken arm and ribs) by a gang claiming the school property as their territory. Can't say she wasn't warned...the gang sent her a formal notice the elementary school grounds belonged to them a week or so prior, complete, on an a nicely typed paper with an official letterhead. Those arrested were jr. and high school students.

Just one of very many incidents I could tell about that I don't ever recall happening while I went to school.

Also as I posted about yesterday, high school kid got his throat cut during fight at school. Ever remember that happening when you were in school.

Problem is, like I said, yesterday and today, parents that were interviewed after this kid got his throat cut just couldn't figure out how the other kid got the knife in school. Some interviewed today that were on the news are now wanting metal detectors inst'd. Some were wanting to hold the school accountable. No doubt the poor parents of the boy that got his throat cut, phone has or will be ringing off the hook by every att'y in the city wanting to sue the school....but yet no one wants to take any kind of actions to try and prevent something like this from happening prior to it happening.

Same thing goes for the alcohol testing at school dance thing. If there's been enough documented problems in that area and the schools aware there's a problem in that area, they have an obligation to use whatever legal means necessary to avoid the alcohol problem. Either that or don't sponsor the dance period.

Let the parents rent a hall, sponsor and chaperone the event and take on the responsibility of not getting sued should by chance a car load of teens get in a wreck after leaving the dance and alcohol is involved.


I and most guys I knew carried a knife every day and the thought never occurred to us to ever use it in SD if we got in a fight. And I went to a few of what was considered rough schools back then.

IMO, if you don't feel things have changed drastically today in regards to what some kids can/will do out on the street or at school compared to what we used to do 30-40 yrs ago, you're really out of touch with some of todays kids or you simply don't want to accept it. Just research how many shootings/ stabbings happened at high school football games the last few years.
Also while your at it, research how many high schools in rougher areas don't have Fri-night football anymore. They play there games on Sat. during the day with an empty stadium and no cheering fans. Why? The documented history of violence during previous night games. Sad, but true.
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Old September 9, 2011, 12:24 PM   #116
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[That said, this raises a larger issue - what message are we sending to our children when we assume that ALL of them are incipient lawbreakers and must be handled as such? ]

No, the message is that no man is an island, and the behavior of a few may affect all. Why do you think we had the change in gun laws after the JFK assassination? But all us pay the price.

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Old September 9, 2011, 01:06 PM   #117
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mehavey, if you don't know how to recognize and react to bad behavior, but instead need to hide behind a "breathalyze them all" policy, then one of two things are true:

1) You need more training; or
2) Your system needs an internal revamp.
I suspect it's the latter. Most school systems seem to lack intestinal fortitude, individual initiative, and sensible administrators.

3) And many parents shirk their responsibilities.
MLeake -- perchance are you a teacher? (or are you married to one?)

Yesterday, a 6-year old reached into his "what interesting things from home" grab bag for class discussion and pulled out a hand grenade. Needless to say things got interesting for a while, people flew into panics, teachers were white-faced and police were called -- and it took an old military guy (moi) to see that it was a classic WW-II/fake one anyone can buy at surplus stores. (Think the swimming pool scene in the CaddyShack -- and reaction when Bill Murry picked up the offending article.)

The kid stated that his Dad said he could bring it. (Your point #3 above. ...and how we seem to have raised a clueless generation).

As to my needing more training, anyone who comes up against me has self-filtered himself out to be hard-core -- and dangerous. Please don't anyone try to tell me different... unless they've been there.

Now the System (your first point), there you have a point, particularly as it pertains to publics schools. One (1) child can disrupt/destroy and entire classroom and the teacher has little recourse under current rules of "inclusion" and "process." This doesn't even get into the older grades wherein drinking, drugs and don't-give-a-%^$@ can take out far more than a class. There is no accountability. And the children learn this as an increasing matter of fact as they progress through the grade structure. And since the Sytem won't allow you to fix this problem at the source, you have to resort to filtering its effects at the outlet -- e.g., breathalizer tests, metal detectors, drug dogs and locker searches.

Do I like it? No. I grew up in a time and place where high-schoolers had their shotguns for afternoon hunting in the back window gun rack of their trucks in the parking lot. No problems.

I grew up where there might be drinking, but kids understood it had best be kept under wraps as any adult would take them to task (if not the cleaners).

I grew up where class disruption got you thrown out -- period. None of this "I got my rights" wherein parents sue the principal, the teacher, the superintendant... and anyone else they can Google a name on.

I grew up where inappropriate dance floor conduct got you thrown out -- period. None of this 1st Amendment ACLU garbage.

I grew up where kids feared the teachers, not the other way round.

At this point I don't care whose "fault" it is, it's out of control and breathalizer tests to prevent drunken mob escation are the least of my night-sweat worries.
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:14 PM   #118
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mehavey, I'm not a teacher, nor married to one. I was a Navy officer, and am now a defense contractor, and I'm married to an RN. I work in Afghanistan, and she's job hunting.

My mother was a teacher, though. My uncle was a middle school teacher and, for a while, vice principal. I have friends who are teachers, and I hear a lot of stories.

The recurring theme is that the system does not or will not deal with known problem kids, and so the system comes up with asinine crap such as zero tolerance policies, which got a girl suspended from one Florida school for having a toenail clipper with (gasp) the file still attached, which some lame-brain faculty member decided could be a stabbing weapon; a little boy in trouble for having his GI Joe Doll with its teeny tiny gun at another Florida school; and another kid in Florida charged with assault with a deadly weapon for shooting an airsoft rubber pellet at another kid with an improvised slingshot - since it was able to raise a welt, it was dealt with as a deadly weapon by the school, the school resource officer, and the local DA.

The system has become gutless and brain dead.

Meanwhile, one poster says that breathalyzers teach kids that everybody is treated equally. What an utter crock. What breathalyzing everybody teaches kids is that actions do not have consequences. Good behavior means nothing to the authorities, and neither does bad behavior. If you breathalyze kids who have shown prior behavioral issues that support reasonable suspicion, you reinforce that negative behaviors have consequences. The "breathalyze 'em all and let God sort 'em out" approach is morally bankrupt, intellectually lazy, and in the long term only makes your problems worse.

Look at your own posts, mehavey. The problem is that "the system" won't let you deal with problems in a way that uses any sort of sense or moral compass. You can argue that what you are left with is breathalyzing them all, but the least of all evils isn't close to the ideal. The ideal is bringing back the concept of individual accountability and consequences.

And if the dance can't safely be held without mass breathalyzers, perhaps it should be cancelled.
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:35 PM   #119
mehavey
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...not a teacher, nor married to one. I was a Navy officer...
Army Officer here....
Wife's been a teacher for 20 years (primary grades -- first social filter ) Although also fully-employed in the "Nat'l Security" mafia, I also occasionally substituted in Math and Physics as I entered my "give-something-back" stage. As you might imagine, I tend to get the better crop in those areas and don't exactly have a 'vulnerable' personality. But i still see/hear what goes on elsewhere.
Quote:
My mother was a teacher, though. My uncle was a middle school teacher and, for a while, vice principal. I have friends who are teachers, and I hear a lot of stories.
The stories have dramatically changed even in only in the last dozen years ago. One of my best lifelong friends (a black colonel of artillery whose culture color is green) was raised in Detroit by his grandparents for reasons left to the imagination. That he is an Academy graduate speaks loudly for what he's gone through and how far he pulled himself up. And as you might also imagine, he and Bill Cosby agree as to the real problem. His wife just retired as principal of a middle school here in one of the richest counties in the nation. Her stories echo the problems both inside and outside the school. We aren't in Kansas anymore.
Quote:
The recurring theme is that the system does not or will not deal with known problem kids, and so the system comes up with asinine crap such as zero tolerance policies, ....The system has become gutless and brain dead.
There you are dead right. We have retired to the fatal fascination of the fortress... with all that implies.
Quote:
And if the dance can't safely be held without mass breathalyzers, perhaps it should be cancelled.
Maybe next year. (After all, hope springs eternal.)

Last edited by mehavey; September 9, 2011 at 02:40 PM.
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Old September 9, 2011, 02:43 PM   #120
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mehavey, in all fairness, I did note that I suspected the problem was the system, vs your training.

After your last post, that suspicion has been reinforced.

But broken systems still don't justify treating every kid as a potential criminal. The problem is that fixing the system is harder than imposing on kids, and that the system has better lawyers than do the kids.

Cheers.

And aarond, I love the sign. I can easily picture my grandfather wrapping that BB gun around the curmudgeon's head, too, in 1954. Actually, either grandfather. But the big Swedish steel-mill-foreman grandfather would have just stormed up and done it on the spot, while the small Sicilian grandfather would have picked time and place with some care.

Either way, a Daisy would have rung a bell.
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Old September 9, 2011, 03:14 PM   #121
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Lemme share a little of "the flip side of the coin"...

I am a florida resident and well aware of some of the cases where "Zero Tolerance" rules have ruined the records of otherwise excellent kids with no other bad marks in their file...

Here is the "flip side"... There is a SMALL rural K-12 PUBLIC school which I will not name for fear that someone may find out how the "officials" do not honor the state mandated rules...

This school has an Agriculture program. The teacher of the ag classes knows which students carry the sharper knives to open feed sacks and cut bailing twine etc...

He has been heard telling "little Johnny" that he needs to learn to sharpen a knife.

This school has averaged a graduating class of 40-60 students each year since the 40's. This number would decrease severely and they would lose numerous faculty if they "raided" the parking lot full of (mostly) pick up trucks. They would find numerous guns and machetes during non-hunting seasons and exponentially more during hunting seasons...

This was a school I was proud to have educating my kids!

Brent
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Old September 9, 2011, 05:38 PM   #122
mehavey
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This was a school I was proud to have educating my kids!
As would I...
Takes me back to the "old days"





.
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Old September 9, 2011, 06:27 PM   #123
shortwave
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This was a school I was proud to have educating my kids

Quote:
As I would....

Make that three of us.

Unfortunately, most schools just aren't that way anymore.

I'd bet anything, the parents of those kids actually knew where their kids were at the majority of the time. If a parent saw a kid, any kid, acting up to warrant some attention, someones parent gave it and the kid had enough respect to listen cause if the kid didn't and word got back to his/her own parent , there was extreme consequence's.

Yea, thoughs were the days.

A friend of mine retired and went back to work driving a school bus. His last two years have been spent driving kids to a school district in which they don't live in cause they've got in so much trouble where they are supposed to attend, that district threw them out....the law says the kids have to be educated.

The system's more than broke...it's totaled.

Last edited by shortwave; September 9, 2011 at 06:36 PM.
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Old September 9, 2011, 06:33 PM   #124
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shortwave, the point hogdogs is making (since he's my age, roughly) is that his current or recent high school age kids attended this school recently, not in the good old days.

In other words, his local school, and local community, still practice common sense and parental involvement.
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Old September 9, 2011, 06:48 PM   #125
shortwave
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I understood hogs point.

Quote:
Unfortunately most schools aren't that way anymore.
....

and its sad to say they are not.
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