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Old September 25, 2011, 03:54 AM   #151
youngunz4life
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from what I understand people like Baby Face helped lead to the end of the "romance" w/bank robbers like Dillinger stealing from the evil banks who were hurting people during the depression. He enjoyed his role a little too much and people frowned upon the fact that he had no problem killing fathers, husbands, etc with such disregard. I am not saying that is the way it was, but like you said, baby was sort of trouble. I think he resented the fact Dillinger was getting fame on his bankjobs too.

I did also see a historical adaptation of Baby Face, and it claimed that the Mob used people like Baby Face as examples and reasons why to stay out of the limelight and on the 'down-low' to stay under the radar more.
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Old September 25, 2011, 06:55 AM   #152
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They said he stepped out with the .351 Winchster (Power of like a 357 magh out of a semi-auto rifle.) which was his favorite gun with his welded mags. The shot just happened to hit him right then and he knew he was in trouble. He analyzed it a second and told his wife to run. I think it was more luck 60-90ft. is pretty far. His second was the Tommy of course. Alot of them used 1911's in 38super too because it would defeat the old vests. Either way Baby Face is the most entertaining criminal much more than Dillinger. Baby face way a bad mofo .

--- The Fed you can see massive incoming rounds hitting the window frame coming through at him and even hittin him. He pulls back quick and kind of falls scrambling away. He was ok it seems but needed some fresh boxer's . They were caught in an ambush to bad that idiot Korish didnt let them go and they burned . Someone put one in his head during the ordeal, GAME OVER. I would turn on him like "Um whatever we were trying to right we are not." Anyway good stuff keep it coming .
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Old September 25, 2011, 09:09 AM   #153
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If I may be permitted a brief aside, can anyone post pics of Platt and Matix? I've never been able to find any, but am still very curious to see what these two looked like.
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Old September 25, 2011, 09:20 AM   #154
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The reason the .38 got off is because it was on the way out anyway. There was a general change over from wheel guns to semi auto. Also the .38 is an easy fix. Use .357 ammo when your gun allows it.
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Old September 25, 2011, 12:31 PM   #155
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@ Single Six--- Get the book Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight. This is by W. French Anderson, M.D. They have AWESOME pics and great info on this shootout. It is truly a great read and you would be pleased with it. I have read it cover to cover twice and find myself flipping through it often, it is actually to the left of my bookshelf. My 1911 is on the right . Im in the middle typing away.

I can post pics, I will get the stuff I need for it I just dont have it right now. Most of my $$ goes to to firearms. But, I will give you a rough description and what it says their weight and height was.
Matix:
Age:34 Height: 5' 11" Weight 180lbs Thinning reddish brown hair, dont know length, and with a handlebar mustache. What I can describe fromt he book is he looks like he belongs in the old west Almost. He definitley could be an intimidating guy if you can see past all the holes in his face. I remember John Hanlon who was shot in the hand and groin by Platt said during the chase he specifically remembers Matix. He said he looks like a man on a mission and didnt look particularly concerned with the FBI. He had a giant handlebar mustache that made him look even more intimidating.
Platt:
Age: 32 Height: 5' 10" Weight 210lbs Dark Brown Hair about 4" long and a mustache but a more trimmed one. What I can describe about platt is he appears like a fairly normal looking guy. However, by the photos if he wanted to it looks like he could be pretty intimidating looking. I think it was McNiell or Manuzzi who saw Platt just staring at him as they went by he was rocking a mag into the Mini 14. He looked like he could be more regular most of the time but then turn into a psycho looking guy in a second. Matix looked intimidating because of the mustache, Platt looked intimidating because he was Platt he looks intense and serious. The FBI didnt realize he was a Terminator absurd.
Seriously though, BUY the BOOK, you will love it. It will show and tell you alot about this. I hope this was kind of interesting.
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Old September 25, 2011, 01:21 PM   #156
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Orrantia, McNeil and Risner could have used the easy fix available to them - fire .357 instead of 38spl +P out of their .357 revolvers. Although for Risner - his primary weapon was his S&W 459 semi-auto.

McNeil took Matix out of the fight with 38spl rounds. Matix didn't fire any shots after he was shot be McNeil. So in that sense - it didn't make a difference what caliber bullet McNeil was shooting through his revolver. What made the difference there is that he had to disengage in order to reload, he wasn't able to put shots on target while he was reloading his revolver and he got hit with return fire.

With Mireles you can make an argument that it didn't matter because he ended it with 38spl rounds, so obviously 38spl was good enough in final moments of the whole thing.

Risner initially was firing 9mm from his 459. It's not clear if Risner or Orriantia hit Platt, causing him to drop his .357 magnum. It makes sense to me that Risner fired this shot, I know that both Risner and Orrantia were fring at him but the next shot - the fith wound that Platt incurred was definately from Risner.

The shot that either Orrantia or Risner made on Platt that fractured his radius bone and exited the forearm, causing Platt to drop his revolver - either Orrantia made the shot and it wouldn't have made a difference if it had been .357 magnum or not since it was a shot to arm that exited out the forearm, or it was Risner - who was shooting 9mm at the time. Either way I don't think a .357 magnum round would have made a difference.

The next gunshot wound to Platt was IMO the only time in the shootout where an argument can be made that .357 would have made a difference over 38spl.

The next hit on Platt was made by Risner who was probably firing his 38spl at this point. The bullet penetrated Platt's right upper arm, exited below the armpit and entered his torso, stopping below his shoulder blade. The wound channel may have been very different with a .357 magnum. It may have shattered his shoulder blade, although who's to say? A .357 mag bullet may have simply exited below the shoulder - I don't know.

My general thought here though is, if you look at each time the BGs got hit with a 38spl and think how it would have been different if it had been a .357 magnum - in all cases but one, I don't beleive it would have made a difference.
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Old September 25, 2011, 02:42 PM   #157
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Tyler: Very interesting, thank you very much, and also, thanks for the heads-up. I'll see if I can't go about locating it that book. Meanwhile, what was your opinion on Ayoob's coverage on this in his American Handgunner column?
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Old September 25, 2011, 03:05 PM   #158
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@ CountZER0-- I agree completley with everything you said. THe 357 only would have made a difference on the 1st Platt hit. The hit to Platts forearm was a 9mm by Risner I believe you are correct. The 9mm would have done the same as the 38 had it been in Mireles hand maybe better. I agree wholeheartedly that the agents should have been allowed to carry 158gr. 357 JSP/ JHP rounds that did not super penetrate. However, a .357 would have been an easy fix.

@Singlesix--- No problem I am glad you found the post interesting. I hope you like the book. Honestly, I havent really read Ayoobs comment but would like too. I been meaning to but wanted a link for free of all of them. Take care.
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Old September 25, 2011, 04:07 PM   #159
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+1 on the Podcast Interview

That was a great addition to this story! Thanks for posting it.

"I tell the boys that if someone takes a shot at 'em, kill em. Because boy does it make you feel a hell of a lot better!" - John Hanlon, Retired FBI Special Agent
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Old September 25, 2011, 11:44 PM   #160
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O I know I thought that was excellent too Ambishot. It was cool to hear from an actual participant. He wanted them dead.
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Old September 27, 2011, 03:14 AM   #161
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DONT LET IT DIE NOT YET
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Old September 28, 2011, 03:53 PM   #162
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Ayoobs article is badly titled, as it does not go into the real lessons learned from the blood of the FBI Agents. As I posted earlier in this very thread:

1. Attitude is all important. TODAY could be THE DAY for you. Train, prepare, and act as though it is.

2. Training matters - at the time, the FBI did not teach their own personnel vehicle stops tactics. I taught them for my Federal Agency, and we never taught pulling up alongside the suspect vehicles, nor ramming them.

3. Shot Placement matters - not the caliber, kind of ammo, or number of rounds in the gun. As we said, a single .22 short in the brain stem is better than a hit in the pinky with a .500 S&W. It's interesting but ultimatly useless to anylise to the 100th degree the guns and ammo.

4. Information sharing is critical - McNeil was asked by one of the agents, just before the shooting started, if they should notify the local PD. His reply was "No, their assistance will not be needed."

5. Identification matters -The first calls to 9-1-1 were "there is a bunch of white guys shooting at a bunch of white guys". The first officers on scene could not help the FBI, because they did not know who was who.

NONE OF THIS FAULTS THE AGENTS! They did the best they could with the training, information, and abilities that they had. Their agency failed them, mostly by allowing the "It's not going to happen to me!" mindset and the failure to train them for a clearly probable event - an unknown risk car stop. I have been in similar circumstances, but had already sought out additional training beyond what my agency offered. In one case, it saved a number of lives, including my own.

(The information I base this on includes, but is not limited to: The Treasury Dept. report of the incident; seeing all 3 of the police videos about it; seeing the lecture by the lead investigator at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and 27 years as a Federal Agent, 25 as a firearms instructor.)
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Old September 28, 2011, 10:46 PM   #163
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@Sleuth WOW awesome post brother. I agree with 100% of what you said and I dont think it could have been said better. If ypu dont mind sharing some LEO stories I would love to hear them otherwise I undertand, thanks.
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Old September 29, 2011, 02:49 PM   #164
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Tyler, I have so many stories I have started writing a book - a humerous, gun owners look at being a Fed. From the nut jobs to the bureaucratic idiocy, it will all be in there.
Working title: "I want to go out & Arrest Somebody!"
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Old September 29, 2011, 07:13 PM   #165
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I take exception to point 3. If Ronald Regan had been shot with a .357 mag with a hollow point he would have never made it to the hospital. He came close to dying from a .22. Shot placement does matter for sure but a bigger hole matters as well.
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Old September 30, 2011, 11:11 AM   #166
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Oh, I agree on the point of larger bullets presuming the same point of impact. But my comments are on what did happen, not what could have happened.

In the 'what if' game, IF the FBI agents armed with MP5's had made it to the scene; IF Metro dade had been notified; IF the FBI agents all had their shotguns in the car, not in the trunk; IF they had been armed with .500 S&W's rather than .38/.357/9mm's, etc. etc. It can go on forever.

One other point: when you see the video of the Regan shooting, notice the uniformed police officer who turns to look at Regan as he exits the building. We were all told "The protectee is not a threat - don't look at him, watch the crowd." IF that officer had watched the crowd, Regan might not have been shot. The gun came out of the crowd right next to that officer. Perhaps he could have deflected it, perhaps not.

And no one I know can absolutly predict the outcome of any single shot on a human. So to say Regan 'would not' have reached the hospital is speculation. Perhaps the bigger gun would not have gone unnoticed by the crowd. Perhaps the .357 round would not have followed the same path after hitting the limo. Once again, we are into "What If...?", with it's infinite possibilities.
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Old September 30, 2011, 11:36 AM   #167
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I have a question - in the re-enactments/TV movie the Mini-14 is full-auto. Was that actually the case?
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Old September 30, 2011, 12:04 PM   #168
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I have a question - in the re-enactments/TV movie the Mini-14 is full-auto. Was that actually the case?
No it wasn't. It was regular semi-auto Mini stolen from a gun owner who was shooting an an informal range. Not sure if it belonged to the one guy who survived the attack or not. Wonder if the gov ever gave him his stuff back?

IIRC Platt fired a total of about 40 rounds from the Mini.
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Old September 30, 2011, 12:25 PM   #169
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Semi-autos don't make for exciting TV like full autos do.
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Old September 30, 2011, 03:55 PM   #170
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Semi-autos don't make for exciting TV like full autos do.

Indeed.
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Old October 1, 2011, 01:29 AM   #171
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It wasnt Stolen Platt bought A Stainless ruger Mini 14 with the (Gov. folding stock) I believe, and it was Semi auto. Semi auto is the way to go unless you are REALLY CLOSE. They also owned the shotgun Matix used (S&W 3000 12G) the 2 357's (Platt: 586 6"/ Matix: Dan Wesson 5"). Matix also had his own rifle an AR Sporter of some type. Platt bout 5,000 rounds of 55gr. ammo at one point I remember readin it in some LEO passage. He was said to be and was unfortuantley proficient with the MINI 14.
@ Crosshair You recall correctly just about it was at least 42 rounds, possibly more. He probably fired around 50. Record states 42 .223 rounds fired from the Minin 14 Platt used

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Old October 1, 2011, 05:32 AM   #172
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NONE OF THIS FAULTS THE AGENTS
The agents made a set of choices and do bear some level of responsibility... Any number of small changes might have changed the outcome.....
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Old October 1, 2011, 06:17 AM   #173
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Tyler: Don't know if you're aware of this, but in the latest issue of American Handgunner, Ayoob revisits this incident. He also credits the book you mentioned. Just wanted to give you the heads-up.
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Old October 1, 2011, 10:39 AM   #174
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The number of choices open to the Agents of the FBI were very, very small. They had little to choose from in guns, and merely carrying a non-authorized gun could result in being fired on the spot.
Plus, at the time, the FBI line was that their training was THE VERY BEST, and FBI agents did not attend outside training without authorization (which was rarely granted). I never met one at any outside firearms or officer survival training, except when they were "instructors". See, to attend outside training would suggest that The Bureau did not know it all.

There were still many Hoover era supervisors in the Bureau, whose primary rule was "Don't Embarass the Bureau". Criticizing a Supervisor was a quick career ender. Even suggesting another course of action was considered critical.

For example, FBI agents were forbidden to compete in Police firearms competitions, because they might not win. No PPC, and certainly no IPSC or Police Combat (as we used to call it), where a lowly civilian might defeat a "Mighty Special Agent of the F B I."

I violated our firearms rules - err, well, let's just say I streached them to their limits - but the Bureau was far more 'rulebound' than my agency. My Supervisors understood that the rules could not cover ever situation.

Only those who have worked in a Government Bureaucracy have a clue about how anal it can be, and the FBI was worse than any other. (For example, only Hoover was allowed to use blue ink. Everyone else had to use black ink, down to the lowlyest clerk.)
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Old October 1, 2011, 01:48 PM   #175
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@ Sleuth No I didnt thanks for the heads up. I might not load my gun with loads not authorized for FBI. However I might of had a load or two of 357's and would have used it when it got real serious. I rather get fired than fired upon with a .223; Also I would INSIST if I was on this stakeout I had an MP5 with my sidearm (S&W459 Probably). But I would have 2 30 round mags taped together and have it ready to rock even before the stop. I would have extra couple mags of course. If I had that on me Full Auto at the distance of the car I could have ended that probably before either got out. Or at least get Matix then seek cover and get Platt. He'd get a FULL magazine , if I knew in retrospect.
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