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Old September 22, 2011, 01:02 AM   #126
9mm
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If I was in law enforcement I would carry a good amount of ammo. A good round, no 9mm. 2 guns at least.

357 revolver for back up, 20 rounds spare min, on stripper clips lay flat in a pouch.


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1. Never assume that one shot will be enough.
2. Never assume the sight of a gun will ensure compliance.
3. The human body is an amazing machine with amazing limits.
Thank you. People think 1 magazine is enough. There is jams and what knot. The worst thing in a gun fight is to run out of ammo. You want to have more ammo than your attacker(s)
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Old September 22, 2011, 07:54 AM   #127
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I haven't read the entire thread - but on this last page at least I haven't seen any points made about wearing a protective vest.

It seems common sense now that a task force patrolling, doing a stakeout or rolling stake out would be wearing bullet resistant clothing.

When I look at the equipment that was stored in the trunks of cars, I ask myself - in what scenario where they expecting to deploy that stuff?

I try to figure out what assumptions they must have made that would cause them to decide not to wear the vests.

They thought Platt & Matix would surrender?

They thought the suspects could be killed easily with the amout of firepower they thought they cumulatively possesed ?

They thought there would be a situation where the suspects would be "holed up" in some location and the agents could surround them and they would have time to don vests?

They didn't really think that they'd come across Platt & Matix that day?


If you start with the thought that they were going after criminals that were armed and dangerous with the intent to confront them - capture or kill them that day - their actions only make sense to me if there some underylying assumptions like I've listed. (maybe that phrase "armed and dangerous" became cliché for them?)

Some of the people have listed changes to the way we think about situations which I also think is critical - like the thought that "SOONER OR LATTER THE WORST POSSIBLE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES WILL OCCUR"

No one ever created a decision tree, forecasting or worst case analysis.

Even an unsophisticated analysis would have turned up a possibility that Platt & Matirx might initiate a shootout - that would have been enough to put those vests on before starting their engines that morning.
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Old September 22, 2011, 08:55 AM   #128
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Count, I asked a couple of friends, that are long time leos, about that. According to them in 1986 ballistic vests were still scoffed at by many cops. They thought it was a sign of weakness or fear to wear one. Other cops just didn't believe they would work as well as advertised.

Another issue was the size. They were bulkier than modern designs. So, many detectives and plain clothes officers skipped on them. The detectives did it because the vest was "unnecessary" in their lower risk position. Plain clothes officers skipped because they were obvious and blew your cover quickly.

That is what I have been told. So, it only reflects a limitted group of experiences.
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Old September 22, 2011, 09:22 AM   #129
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Vests

As I recall, bullet resistant vest use was in its infancy at the time. My agency was not issued vests until the late 80s. I'm not sure exactly what kind of ammunition Platt used in his mini-14 but if it was military ball, it would have defeated a personal vest. The feds would have needed bunker suits to stop ball ammo. Second-guessing the agents on that fateful day, body armor was very uncomfortable to wear in New York weather. It would have been a horror in Florida weather.
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Old September 22, 2011, 09:53 AM   #130
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I agree that back then they were bulky and uncomfortable.

I'm just saying that there had to be an assumption behind the decision not to wear them - I'm guessing that they were thinking that it was improbable that they'd actually encounter Platt & Matix. They weighed what in their mind hey thought the probability of encountering them against the extreme discomfort of wearing the things and decided to forego wearing them.

For me personally, I think it emphasizes checking assumptions and thinking decisions forward.

Sometimes even if you don't think decisions forward or follow some type of logarithmic analysis or decision tree or something, just checking decisions to see if they are logically consistent.

Does it make sense for everyone to load up in vehicles and go chasing bad guys if some of your other decisions indicate that you don't think you're actually going to encounter them?
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Old September 22, 2011, 11:51 AM   #131
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IIRC, they were the surveillance team, and hadn't gone out that day expecting a confrontation.... But then they felt they should initiate one.

In any case, the regular vests of the era would not necessarily stop .44 magnum, and would not stop any rifle round, to include 5.56.
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Old September 22, 2011, 07:38 PM   #132
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I wore a vest in those days, they weren't terribly bulky but they didn't fit as well as today's vests. They also weren't as effective as today's vests but I wore mine most every time I wore a uniform.


I try to figure out what assumptions they must have made that would cause them to decide not to wear the vests.

They thought Platt & Matix would surrender?...COuntZerO

That's my impression. They thought if they presented a show of force and yelled "FBI, you're under arrest!" that it would all be over and they could start the paperwork. This seems silly now but things were different back then.
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Old September 23, 2011, 01:44 AM   #133
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Good posts guys especially @Ciubtzeros you made a lot of good points about the agents. Yes the vests may have been bulky but if they were looking for these guys they should of had them on. They were frowned upon like a wuss, I understand the thought process but its stupid. Any time I can have any vest Id wear it even if the 223 went through maybe Ill get lucky and it will upset the round.


GUNS AND AMMO--- Here's a list for fun.
Platt's --- @federali In his Ruger Mini 14 he was firing 55gr. FMJ I am not sure what brand, at least 42 rounds fired. S&W 586 357 Mag 3 rounds fired.
Matix--- 1 shot of #6 shot ( never got that ) out of his S&W 3000 12G fired hitting a fender. He had a Dan Wesson 357 Platt took at some point and fired 3 rounds. So Platt probably fired a good 48 rounds total.
Agents: Assorted .38 Special +p out of chief specials and a couple model 19's I think. The Semi's were S&W 459 9mm's kind of like an old blue 5906 with WIN 115gr. +p Silvertips.
00 Buck fired one handed by a Remington 870 12G
Verified shots fired by suspects: 49
Verified shots fired by FBI: 70
Verified total shots in firefight: 119
Probable total number of shots fired: >130
That is info straight from my Dr. Anderson book on the firefight. Im really into this shootout in case you cant tell and studied the crap out of it.


You guys are right its just poor planning and a culmination of mishaps at a horrible time. Plus running into a Platt didnt help the guy was like the Terminator, and very bad. Matix was tough too and somehow got to the getaway car with gunshots in his face. Platt was devistating with 3 hits to his right arm he was still operating the Mini 14. It took 12 rounds to finally stop him that just amazes me. 6 for Matix too, I think? These guys were tough. RIP Jerry Dove and Ben Grogan both of you scored a critical hit.
Grogan: Even though nearly blind without his glasses he fired at Matix's muzzle flash and hit his right arm cause Matix to recoil back and check the would and then McNeill drilled him with 2 good shots incapacitating him partially.

Dove: When Platt was leaving the Monte Carlo he hit him in the right arm with the 9mm Silvertip that passed length wise up his arm. It severed the brachial artery and exited near the armpit, tumbling, it entered his chest. It penetrated between the 5 & 6 rib and burrowed its way 1 inch from his heart but still crushing his pulmonary arteries. This is the round that was fatal to Platt he was found with 1.3 Liters of Blood in his right lung area.
Sorry for the ramble
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Old September 23, 2011, 09:15 AM   #134
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Quote:
the 9mm Silvertip that passed length wise up his arm...severed the brachial artery and exited near the armpit, tumbling...entered his chest...penetrated between the 5 & 6 rib and burrowed its way 1 inch from his heart but still crushing his pulmonary arteries.
Taken by itself, the above is a rather remarkable performance for a handgun cartridge. Any handgun cartridge. I really don't see how the FBI had a problem with it, except for a perceived necessity to shift blame from the agency to a bullet.
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Old September 23, 2011, 09:35 AM   #135
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^ I agree.

The Silvertip inflicted a fatal wound. Is it the Silvertip's fault he didn't die immediately?

It wasn't a frontal shot.

I guess because it didn't travel an addition 1.25" inches the round is a goat.
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Old September 23, 2011, 09:45 AM   #136
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It also seemed to me like the 9mm got blasted afterwards and the 38 spl got off relatively unscathed.

It's like when me & my brother would get in trouble - my Dad would forget that there were two of us... I'd catch hell and it was like my brother wasn't even there.

McNeill, Orrantia and Hanlon were all firing 38 +P if IIRC.

Maybe the 38 spl was let off the hook because it was used by Mireles to end the shootout.
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Old September 23, 2011, 09:49 AM   #137
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I should go get the book - the one by Anderson, not Ayoob.


I've always wondered if McNeill, Orrantia and Hanlon were trained on, or were proficient with the S&W M459.
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Old September 23, 2011, 01:09 PM   #138
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I would sign a contract with God today if He could guarantee me the exact same hit Jerry Dove got, should I ever have to shoot someone. The average criminal shmuck is likely to give it up at that point.
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Old September 23, 2011, 11:29 PM   #139
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@ Secret agent man--- I complelety agree with you 100%. The shot was from behind Doves passenger side door at a distance of approximatley 25ft. Under high stress that is a pretty darn good shot with a pistol. I also agree the round performed very well and the FBI scape goated it. They didnt take into effect it traveled a long distance through him and still almost got the ticker.
The 38 Special recieved no backlash yet Matix was shot in the face mutiple times with a 38 and was still operational. Out of the fight, out for a while, but he became operational. I also agree most criminals would go from a shot like this when they saw the faucet of blood coming from THEM.

@Countzero-----I Highly recommend getting the book by Dr. Anderson, M.D called Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight To be quite honest it is one of the best books I have ever read and find myself flipping through it often. Trust me once you read it and see the crime scene photos you will be impressed. I believe it will change your view of this and shootouts in general. When you see Grogan and Doves car where Platt walked along side and leaned against . There is so much blood on the car you wonder how anyone could stand much less be fighting capable. The book said blood was probably actively spurting out of his body the entire time. The crime scene photos do validate that. He shows Platt and Matix's wounds at the medical examiners it it intersting to see them. When you see Platt's you will really how that man did what he did, they are just so devistating. As to your question about Hanlon, Orrantia, and McNeill being qualified with the S&W 459 was never mentioned in the book. However, I think it would have been a heck of a lot better if those 3 had them as well. A lot of 9mm's would be flying. Grogan and Dove were SWAT qualified and authorized to carry the 459. I am pretty sure Risner was as well.
[I]FBI:
McNeill-- 357 Magnum 2 inch barrel M19 6 round fired (38+p)
Mireles--12G 870 5 rounds of 2 3/4 inch 00Buck fired. 357 Revoler (I think Model 13HB) 6 rounds fired (38+P)
Grogan: S&W459 9 rounds fired
Dove: S&W459 20 rounds fired
Risner: S&W459 Fired between 13-28 rounds most likely closer to the latter as he was said to have fired alot. Souvenir hunters took some cases. He fired 1 round from a Model 36 (I think of 38+p)
Orrantia: 357 Magnum 4 inch barrel (not sure what) fired 12 rounds of (.38+p)
BAD GUYS:
Platt: Ruger Mini 14 at least 42 rounds fired, 357 S&W 586 6 inch 3 shots fired, and took Matix's Dan Wesson 357 6 inch and fired 3 rounds late in the gunfight.
Matix: S&W Model 3000 12G 1 round fired of #6 shot. He never really was in the fight. It was all Platt except for the driving.

Sorry for the ramble post Im just wicked interested in this and figured Id spread exact knowledge from a text.
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Old September 24, 2011, 02:50 AM   #140
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It's been reported that Mireles used a Smith & Wesson Model 686 despite not being FBI issue.
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Old September 24, 2011, 07:26 AM   #141
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That is right actuallly I just did some looking around because I wanted to know exactly what he had. Sounds like it did the job; either the .38 or 9mm would have if they got better hits.
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Old September 24, 2011, 12:49 PM   #142
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If they had been hit with a .357 or .40 than that little 9mm things would have ended a lot sooner. He would have had a large hole in his heart as well. A 9mm just does not make as big a hole nor will it penetrate as far. Both of those things make a difference.
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Old September 24, 2011, 06:50 PM   #143
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The 9mm is not as powerful as the 357 obviously and I agree that probably would have blasted his heart to bits. However, I am not sure the 40 would necessarity preform much better than the 9mm and what if it did the same thing. Im sorry I just dont thing the 40 is what people think. No doubt it a potent round but a marginal difference to a 9mm. The 45ACP is way better, imo, and call do all the 40 can and better.
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Old September 24, 2011, 08:07 PM   #144
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The 1985 Miami shootout radically changed law enforcement in America.

I'm not sure why the 9mm got blasted whereas the 38 spl didn't but the end result was the same - we saw an exodus away from both guns / rounds in the LE community.

Also saw the switch away from revolvers to autos. They could have simply mandated that officers move from the 38spl 158+P to a .357 load. They could have gone to the .44 magnum which would have been a lot like the 10mm they ended up trying. But they also moved away from revolvers.

And a change in the way LEAs equip their officers. It seems like a "Raid" but so many times now when officers are going to enter a building with a warrant, they go with a platoon of fellow officers armed with carbines, shotguns, and everyone in full body armor.
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Old September 24, 2011, 09:42 PM   #145
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He would have had a large hole in his heart as well. A 9mm just does not make as big a hole nor will it penetrate as far. Both of those things make a difference.
It will not making as big of a hole or penetrate as much usually. A lot depends on which bullet you are using. In the Winchester Ranger T the difference in expaned diameter is .03" when compared to the 147gr 9mm. Plus the 9mm has better penetration compared to the .40S&W when shooting through denim. It also penetrates more through heavy clothing than the 180gr .40S&W. The 147gr 9mm also handles Wallboard better than either .40S&W load. That isn't conjecture it is based on Winchester's own published data that is publicly viewable.

You have to know which bullet you are using and what the most likely use is before you can determine which is better.

Tyler
Quote:
The 45ACP is way better, imo, and call do all the 40 can and better.
It makes a bigger hole everytime. However, you still have to know the bullet and loading you are shooting. The Winchester Ranger T in .45acp actually under penetrates compared to .40S&W and 147gr 9mm unless shooting through steel or plywood. It is equal to the 180gr S&W through auto glass, but expands less.

Again know the load and the likely use. The results are different for the Ranger Bonded. So, if using that load a different caliber may be more suitable.
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Old September 24, 2011, 10:55 PM   #146
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O I know I am not ignorant or wasnt knocking the .40 @ Mikenice. I actually have a gaining respect and want to get my 1st plastic gun in .40 a G23 because of a dream; Im a 1911 and steel guy but it called to me in my dream . I also really want a Beretta INOX 96FS in .40 1st because I love the Inox and want a .40 because I own none. I agree some 9's and 40's could outperform a 45ACP. I was just stating in my opinion I prefer the 45 every time ove the 9/40 because of its marginal advantage. I also like how I can load light and fast or heavy and slow. They have 255gr. Buffalo Bore 45ACP rounds which are devistating. However, I agree the .40 is also an awesome round and I wouldnt hesitat to use it. I would probably choose that or the 9mm in certain situations thinking beforehand. Will it be crowded, will I need more rounds? Anyway that my post just wanted to let you know I do like the .40 Im not a basher .
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Old September 24, 2011, 11:21 PM   #147
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THIS POST IS DOING WELL IT MUST LIVE ON. Lets spin it to a .40 discussion. I really like this thread and want it to keep going . I know there are a lot of super intellegent people on here because I have spoken to many of them so Id like to hear from you .
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Old September 25, 2011, 01:12 AM   #148
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going back to the FBI fatalities vis shootouts metioned way above...I never knew Purvis and Hoover had issues? I knew Hoover wore him in the ground to get Baby Face Nelson and mainly Dillinger but I didn't know the last part because I thought all was well after Dillinger went by-by.

Baby Face Nelson's firefight has always fascinated me as well as the lodge "raid" before baby's firefight(I also watched the rooftop Waco shootings live when that one guy - FBI Agent - barely got down while his buddies were dead or dying).

One of the two FBI Agents that killed Baby Face did it on his first, well-placed shot which was a fatal shot to the abdomen I believe. Of course Baby Face dispatched both the agents by approaching them and engaging in a firefight instead of running like most criminals(literally left a parked car instead of driving away and decided that these guys weren't going to live past that day). The agent killed him with the first shot, but both agents - who contuinued firing - were dead before Baby Face who actually was able to escape the scene.
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Old September 25, 2011, 01:45 AM   #149
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@ Younggunz4life-- (Hoover was ****** Purvis got all the press for the Dillenger Killer basically)

I am interested in the Dillinger era of Robber as well especially Nelson. Why Nelson because he was a character and actually went after the agents. Did you know he was quite the competent gunsmith in real life and coverted a 1911 to full auto in 38super with a extra mag welded on. So his gun held about 21 rounds full auto. The gun had the Thompson foregrip and compensator look it up its cool. It is briefly used by Nelson in Public Enimies when he gets that agent in the car. He gave it to Dillinger as a token of their friendship after a while and it was found in his aresnal.

The problem with Nelson was he spelled trouble. He went after every Federal agent he spotted and also shot a motorcycle policmen during a Dillinger heist 4 times with a Thompson (he survived but critical) in the chest.

Finally one day it came to the shootout you were talking about. One I find very impressive as well. Nelson with a buddy and his wife when he simutaneously spotted 2 Agent as they spotted him. After a series of turns Nelson was pursuing the Agents. The passenger Agent took out his 38 super 1911 and fired at the car. All of a sudded Nelson car started to slow and stop, turns out a 38 super penetrated the radiation putting his car out of comission. While this was happening two other agents were on his tail because they saw the chase. Nelson was now public enemy #1 and they wanted him gone. The ensuing firefight was witnessed by at least 30 people and they all gave similar reports. Nelsons car was off the road and the driver side facing the agents car whos front was facing Nelsons. They were about 30yds. apart. Nelson was struck early on in the abdomen by a 45ACP which was the fatal wound. As he was fighting and got hit he said, "Im done for" and he told his wife to run for the tree line which she did. Then he sat on the runner board a couple seconds with his .351 winchester in hand. He had magazine for that welded together to so he had about 20 to 30 rounds at a time. Plus extras. His buddy kept firing the Thompsons at the agents when people said Nelson went beserk and said "Im tired this shooting back and forth sh**." He reportedly moved around the front of his car and fired the Win .351 so fast witnesses thought it was the Thompson. He was hit in the legs with buckshot but got up immediatley after hitting the ground. He hit one of the agents in the head twice and the other multiple times in the chest killing them both. Nelson was hit a total of 9 times and his friends drove him to a hotel and died by the side of his wife. By his personality Im sure he didnt even mind.

The rooftop of Waco is NUTS!! That FED is trying to pull back and you can actually see a couple rounds hitting his vest and him falling on the roof desperatley trying to escape. Anyway thanks for that interesting topic hope you enjoy what I have read from books about it.
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Old September 25, 2011, 03:45 AM   #150
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YES, the Fed on the roof sort of 'takes cover' if you can call it that and quickly realizes that he better get off the roof because he has no chance otherwise. I used to wonder at the time what kind of memories or nightmares he might've suffered remembering the conversation about who would take the lead, the rear, and so-on before the shooting. He was lucky to survive. I am not sure what round was being shot at him, but they were leaving some pretty big holes. They were caught in a really bad ambush. I was only a teen, but I had a feeling the whole thing was gonna end bad after that(all in all it would've ended bad if that had been the end of it which obviously it wasn't).

PS- I have also wondered if the shot that got Baby Face was luck, but there is no way to know.
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