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Old September 15, 2011, 08:34 AM   #101
MikeNice81
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Well, in your line of work, barrier penetration has to be considered.
There is nothing wrong with this line that is your fault. I just want to clarify I am not a LEO. I am departmental staff. I work in the field. I'm usually out there ahead of the cops, with none of the protection.

That being said there are some things that I learned from the Miami shootout that I apply to CCW.

1. Never assume that one shot will be enough.
2. Never assume the sight of a gun will ensure compliance.
3. The human body is an amazing machine with amazing limits.
4. The limits are mental in many ways.
5. Keep fighting until the threat stops.
6. Keep your gun in the holster until you need it.
7. The fight will be what it wants to be. You must adapt to it if you wish to prevail.
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Old September 15, 2011, 08:35 AM   #102
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Points on maneuver and mindset to me are much more important than handgun caliber.

Less important than mindset, but more important than handgun caliber, was the point about keeping the handgun holstered until it is time to use it.

On the same note, Teddy Roosevelt reportedly took six pairs of eyeglasses with him when he charged up San Juan Hill. Most of us aren't worried about pitched battles, so six pairs would be excessive - but I think those who cannot function without glasses should probably carry at least one spare pair.
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Old September 15, 2011, 09:18 AM   #103
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I would call BS on this one. You dont get your heart torn up and live. You would bleed out in very short order.

Stacy Lim was an LAPD officer who was shot through the heart
with a .357 Mag. She drew her 9mm and killed her attacker before collapsing. She survived and returned to duty.

The bullet, a hollow-tipped magnum load, fragmented and nicked nearly every organ in her torso: her stomach, her intestines, her liver. It shattered her spleen, cracked a rib and put a hole in the base of her heart before exiting out her back.

http://articles.latimes.com/1996-07-...lice-officer/2
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Old September 15, 2011, 09:30 AM   #104
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Interestingly, we had a discussion about this in the MAG-40 class I took last month. Our group included an ER doctor and a few ER nurses.

It seems that the specific chamber that is hit, and whether it is hit during systolic or diastolic pulse, makes a big difference.

Example given was if the heart is nicked while it's diastolic (expanded), then when it squeezes to pump blood, the hole will contract down and mostly squeeze shut (depending on size of the hole); but if the same size hole is cut when the heart is systolic (contracted) it will open up very large during the diastolic.

So the bleedout times can be radically different, even in two people in equivalent health and with equivalent mindset.
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Old September 15, 2011, 09:44 AM   #105
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If you guys are talking about my student, he was 15 years old and in a coma for weeks. Took months to be discharged. It happened in Mexico so if true it can't be a miracle of modern medicine LOL. Guy is in his thirties now.

I won't bet my life that it is true but i will bet it all that he has had open heart surgery or surgery that required him to be opened up between the nipples. This scar had what appeared to be a bullet hole in direct line with were I would expect the bottom of the heart to be.
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Old September 15, 2011, 08:06 PM   #106
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she actually only had a very small bullet fragment hit her heart. There is far more to the story than the overblown media article. You cannot get .357 size hole in your heart and live. Blood loss would be incredible and you would bleed out in very short order among other things
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Old September 15, 2011, 11:51 PM   #107
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I dont think he's talking about direct hits to hearts. He's just citing an example that it does happen. People can take a hit to the heart and continue on.
@ bds32---Nice post and I agree with just about everything you said. I have read about the other shootings as well and agree they have important lessons like this one. However, I have not read about the others nearly as much as this shooting. The 1986 shooting is by far the one I know the most about. What you said about going on the offensive I think is very important. You have to have a mindset that you will survive and prevail. I agree if pinned down look for ways to flank. However, like you said you need to be well trained because when the real SHTF it has to be automatic. Trained and ingrained into your head. I also keep the midset now that if I am hit I do not need to go down even if it looks REALLY bad. Even if it is really bad I can still fight my way through it, at least get the sucker who got me . In all seriousness though, this shootout taught me to try and continue no matter what happens. I thought like that before but this really just reinforced it. Now I just hope I can keep that mindset.
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Old September 16, 2011, 07:06 AM   #108
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I dont think he's talking about direct hits to hearts. He's just citing an example that it does happen. People can take a hit to the heart and continue on.
That's kinda playing fast and loose with words though. By that same standard I was shot in the back of the head and not only survived, but was able to continue fighting back. (actually running away) Of course the kicker was that it was a pellet rifle I got shot with and the pellet ricochet off my thick skull, NASTY flesh wound.
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Old September 16, 2011, 12:54 PM   #109
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The problem with getting shot in the heart is the second half of a double tap could strike in close proximity to the first wound. Then you're probably done.
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Old September 16, 2011, 10:14 PM   #110
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@Crosshair-- Im not trying to say it happens all the time because most of the time a hit to the heart is going to be VERY bad. I dont mean that it happens very often or that many people survive it, just saying they can. Getting hit with a pellet gun still is defintley getting shot. I took one in my leg when I was younger and it burrowed in about 2 inches. A cop was at the hospital and asking how the GSW happened. I told him I was shot by an idiot and it was negligent, which it was. Its a wicked small caliber but it any projectile entering your body is technically getting shot.

@secret agent man-- Yea the second one will defintley do you in if the first didnt. A direct hit to the heart is not going to be good and most likely fatal. I was more talking about nips to the heart.

Just to make it clear I am by no means saying many people survive heart shots .

Last edited by TylerD45ACP; September 17, 2011 at 06:18 PM.
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Old September 20, 2011, 12:49 AM   #111
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Hey guys come on. I havent seen a reply in a while Im hoping to keep this going. I know it is talked out a bit but it has spurred some good segways. Let see if anyone has any ideas any response welcome .
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Old September 20, 2011, 02:29 AM   #112
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Things learned from the Miami Shootout:
1) have a good holster that will secure your handgun and permit you to draw it when you are seated in a car, so that you don't feel the need to remove your handgun from your holster in preparation for a car stop.
2) Have a long arm (carbine or shotgun) secured yet quickly available to you.
3) If you need corrective lens to see to aim your firearm, then wear contacts or secure your glasses with a device so that they will stay on in the event of radical movements.


I think that if half (or even two) of the eight agents had had carbines (such as the Colt CAR15 in .223) the fight would have ended sooner in the FBI agents' favor.
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Old September 20, 2011, 03:44 AM   #113
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Quote:
Things learned from the Miami Shootout:
1)
2)
3)...
4) Don't bring revolvers to a rifle fight. They were known to use shotguns and rifles. Save the revolver for office visits.
5) When you take handguns to a rifle fight, at least bring a couple of pistols each, and lots of loaded mags
6) When you go to a fight, secure all essentials (eyeglasses, spare ammo, guns)
7) Never assume the fight is over until the opponent is dead or secured
8) Never underestimate someone who is a known cold blooded killer and has nothing to lose
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Old September 20, 2011, 11:18 AM   #114
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Excellent post guys and I agree 100% with everything you guys said. Especially about having long guns. If 3 agents had long guns 2 an AR-15 .223 type then one 12Gauge or maybe even two. They knew they were violent yet went in haphazardly.
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Old September 20, 2011, 12:20 PM   #115
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TylerD45ACP

A CODICEL TO THE THINGS LEARNED;

SOONER OR LATTER THE WORST POSSIBLE SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES WILL OCCUR, ARE YOU PREPARED!

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old September 20, 2011, 12:34 PM   #116
TylerD45ACP
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Wow that was a good one too and I completley agree. In fact I am in that mindset and am prepared to think like that if and when I have to defend myself. I believe I am prepared. I have been told by many people I can take the most pain they have seen out of any person. This is from some unfortunate things that happend to me. Anyway I hope I am able to continue with my ability to take pain even if shot and I need to keep fighting. I WILL keep fighting even if Im dying that guy is going to get it .
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Old September 20, 2011, 01:05 PM   #117
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Who is more dangerous... the person with nothing to lose, or a lot to lose?
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Old September 20, 2011, 01:13 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by booker_t View Post
Who is more dangerous... the person with nothing to lose, or a lot to lose?
Depends on what the fight's about, yes?

If they have a lot to lose and fighting will help them NOT lose it, they're probably very dangerous.

If they have a lot to lose and fighting will CAUSE them to lose it, they're probably not going to fight.

The person with nothing material to lose, everything material to gain, fighting to not go to prison for life, who is already a known killer and trained to be such, surely must be the most dangerous person alive.
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Old September 20, 2011, 04:00 PM   #119
TylerD45ACP
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Yea I get what your saying peetzakilla but I think he meant in the context nothing to lose as nothing to live for and a life that is less than what you want. I mean that is why people become criminals.
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Old September 20, 2011, 09:39 PM   #120
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I've seen the video the FBI produced as a training tool, from what I've heard they got it right even though it was probably very painful for them. Got some very good info from it.
One of the FBI agents did move his shotgun to the backseat of his car before the fight. Car was not set up like a normal police car-no gun rack. This vehicle rammed the vehicle Platt and Matix were in and the gun slid into the floor behind the front seat, very hard to reach.
Another point was that Platt and Matix fired thousands of rounds and were very familiar with their firearms. As I recall only one agent did much shooting outside of training and quals.
Another point is that a Smith revolver (loaded with .38 +P's as I recall) fired the final fatal shots, and did a damned fine job of doing it. This isn't about one caliber of handgun not getting the job done, it's about going after a 3ft rattler with a 2ft stick.
Final points came from the interviews of the agents involved. To a man they urged those watching to carry more ammo. At the time bulges in one's jacket caused by a single speedloader, let alone two, were considered unsightly by many FBI agents. Many carried loop loaders, speed strips or simply a box of extra ammo in the trunk of the car or a briefcase.
No disrespect to the agents involved but they really didn't plan on getting into a prolonged gunbattle with determined, skilled, better-armed opponents that day. I'm sure they realized it was a possibility but they simply were not properly prepared or trained for what happened. Thank goodness the FBI learned from their mistakes and took steps to insure that it didn't happen again.
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Old September 21, 2011, 12:25 AM   #121
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Thats an awesome writeup and provides a bunch of excellent points. I always believed in having a lot of ammo on me. I dont care if the FBI frowned upon it or not they would be able to see 6 speed loaders in my pockets and there would be at least 2 more + my guns load .
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Old September 21, 2011, 08:33 PM   #122
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Complacency

I don't recall seeing this word in this thread but in essence, it's what made the shootout go south. The FBI was on a stakeout or surveillance and each of them subconsciously thought that it would never happen to them.

The FBI has been in many shootouts and approximately 50 agents have been killed in the line of duty since its inception. You'll recall that at one time, people signed on to the FBI mainly to enhance their resumes. They had no thought of staying there. Also, the agency favored guys with accounting and law degrees--Harvey Milktoast types largely without a kill-or-be-killed mentality. You'll also recall that Hoover was so envious of S/A Melvin Purvis, the guy would got Dillinger, that Hoover quite literally drove that fine agent to ultimately committ suicide. Such was the roots of the FBI.

I was the senior firearms instructor for a federal law enforcement agency. We had 10% buffs, 10% bolos and a bunch of agents in the middle who never once came to me for their allotment of free practice ammo. Early on, we had guys go on raids with revolvers tucked in their waistband, without holsters. We had guys on operations without any spare ammunition and with unloaded guns. But before that, The Manhattan office had but one revolver kept in the SAC's safe. If he deemed it necessary, he issued the revolver to an agent with one round of ammunition. Guys, I'm not making this up. It wasn't until the early 1960s, just before I got there, that each agent was issued his own revolver. We even had a few managers that warned us to never shoot anyone for fear of public embarrassment and the resulting paperwork.

I'm glad to report that a core of dedicated firearms instructors, gradually transformed the agency into a decent tactical force though it took many years and the retirements of the agency brass who were largely prohibition era accountants. Had our agency attempted the Platt/Mattix bust in 1986, they would have completely wiped us out. The agency now has 12 gauge semi-autos and both the president and pope doesn't have to sign off on their deployment. They also carry .40 cal. Glocks.
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Old September 21, 2011, 08:59 PM   #123
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I was a 'Local Cop' assigned to direct an FBI surveillance van around the area while 'we' worked a kidnapping. I got to talking guns with the Agent/Driver. He showed me that he didn't have a gun on him but had one in a door pocket in the van. His plan was to come back and get the gun if he needed it. It was a J Frame S&W of some type, I don't remember which one?
I've been involved with the FBI just 4 times. Most of'm looked way down their noses at us because we were just street cops. Only that one driver was friendly. Most couldn't find their way to the toilet without a map.
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Old September 21, 2011, 09:19 PM   #124
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Reinforcing what Shotgun 693 said, there was some elitism in the FBI ranks. Regrettably, in the area of gambling, narcotics, organized crime, and prostitution, there were a very small percentage of police officers, primarily with the larger departments, who had allowed easy money to corrupt them (see the Knapp Commission Reports). Thus, on many operations, you could not coordinate with the local police force unless you enjoyed raiding vacant sites. To be sure, the corruption occasionally extended into federal ranks. It doesn't mean the feds were cleaner than the locals, it means the locals were closer to the action and more streetwise. As a result, a level of animosity sometimes existed between federal and local law enforcement because the locals expected to be notified of an operation in their own back yard. Also, the FBI had a reputation for not sharing investigative finding with other agencies. You'll recall that this lack of agency cooperation prevented us from connecting the dots regarding 9/11.

Before anyone breaks out his flame thrower, remember, I said a very small percentage, not all of them.
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Last edited by federali; September 21, 2011 at 09:20 PM. Reason: typo
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Old September 21, 2011, 11:23 PM   #125
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Wow, those were very interesting reads and informative. Any more info you have I am glad to hear . Some of what you said sounds absolutley rediculous like issuing a revolver with 1 shot.
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