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Old September 13, 2011, 08:48 AM   #76
booker_t
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I've read about this event over the years as well, read various analysis and comments from those who were there and those who were not.

The main lesson I take from it, as I take from most accounts of similar events, is that taking decisive, aggressive action is a key component to successful outcomes. That points to the importance of training, moreso than caliber or platform selection.

Regarding the 10mm (contrary to what I just said? haha), TylerD, I suggest checking out the Glock 20/29 before you invest in a 1911 pattern platform. The 29 is easier to carry... but consistent with above, the money you save means more practice ammo. If you're a .45 shooter it may take some time getting used to the snappy full-house 10mm and you won't want to shoot more than 100-150 rounds a day, depending on the size and strength of your hands.

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Old September 13, 2011, 12:02 PM   #77
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The real legacy that resulted from the FBI reaction to the fight is not so much a new caliber (though the .40S&W is what I use most), but better bullets.

The direct descendent of the FBI testing methodology which was created to evaluate bullets and cartridges is the bonded hollowpoint points such as the Speer Gold Dot, Win Ranger and Federal HST. These all perform so well that caliber is much less important than when comparing FMJ or HP that breaks up.

Likewise, besides the lack of planning and on the scene tactics, the cartridge failure (if any) was perhaps the Silvertip bullet used. It actually performed well for a lightweight hollowpoint meant to upset rapidly. A 147 gr HP might have had more penetration.

Hopefully the FBI response to a similar situation has improved as much as bullet technology. I suspect it has, without the fanfare of the ammo technology.
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Old September 13, 2011, 12:22 PM   #78
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It was not the 9mm's fault
It is up in the air whether or not the 10mm and subsequently the 40 caliber would have been developed in the wake of the Miami shootout had effective 147 grain hollowpoint 9mm ammunition had be available at the time.

Apparently the FBI was, up until some date, satisfied with the performance of the 158 grain +P LSWCHP revolver round. An acknowledged killer round if there ever was one.

The slightly lighter and slightly faster 9mm 147's marketed today probably accomplish about the same terminal results as the "FBI" load. The only improvement the FBI really needed was not ballistic, but the ability to shoot more rounds between reloads and easier reloading, both characteristics of semi autos.

This is some old hat info, true, but seemed like a good time to air it again with this thread.
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Old September 13, 2011, 12:40 PM   #79
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Nice responses guys. I think the 147gr. may of had more penetration as well. The 115gr. Silvertip did upset quickly as you said and it had to pass through his right arm into and into his chest. The round was tumbling when it came out of his arm. I agree with the better bullet or possible heavier may have reached his heart. Those Silvertips just didnt do the job when it came to penetration. I just have always been fascinated with the refusal to die or stop fighting on either side of the fray. The agents were still fighting after taking .223's to the forearm or hand. I was particuarly fascinated by the amount of rounds Platt took basically refusing to die. He was a very bad man but it is an amazing display of what the human body can accomplish.

@ Booker t-- I agree with what you said about agressive action and training can produce more sucessful outcomes. Thanks for the reccomendation on the Glock 20/29. Recoil has never bothered me much and Im pretty sure I can get used to just about anything. Im going to get a 10MM sometime soon hopefully .
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Old September 13, 2011, 10:10 PM   #80
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a 9mm 147grn at 975fps vs a .40 at 1180 with a 155grn bullet. That is a HUGE difference. over 200fps and a heavier bullet. i think that would have reached Pratts heart. The LEO community is leaving the 9mm and for good reason.
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Old September 13, 2011, 10:49 PM   #81
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Platt and Matix were past military soldiers, well trained and had military combat mentalities. Attack minded, and always be on the offensive. Seek and Destroy.
Unlike Police Law Enforcement. The FBI agents back then are trained to be a defensive tactic.

And even though they were out-numbered, the two accomplished what they wanted to do. Take out as many Agents they could, even though they knew were eventually going to be killed.

Thus, the trajic scenerio and ending.
Since then till today, the FBI traines their agents with offensive tactics.
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Old September 13, 2011, 10:52 PM   #82
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The LEO community is leaving the 9mm and for good reason.
The LE community already did their leaving for the .40 and .357 SIG. They left in droves.

Many are now coming back to the nine. I believe newer technology's good performance, combined with lower cost are the factors.

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Old September 13, 2011, 11:07 PM   #83
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a 9mm 147grn at 975fps vs a .40 at 1180 with a 155grn bullet. That is a HUGE difference. over 200fps and a heavier bullet. i think that would have reached Pratts heart. The LEO community is leaving the 9mm and for good reason.
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The 147 gr. is the heavy bullet for the caliber. It has provided the worst street record of any 9mm HP because it's long on penetration and short on expansion.

The 155 gr. is light for the caliber and, at it's high velocity, expands readily and that limits penetration. It is, indeed, a better bullet than the 147 gr. 9mm. since it penetrates adequately and doesn't suffer from over penetration.

Don't know if it would have reached the heart, but the FBI adopted a bullet that they feel would have---based on one shooting that represented poor marksmanship and a number of tactical errors.

The Win. ST standard pressure had a better street record before the 147 gr. OSM, and after.

NOTE: Federal's new 147 gr. in the HST design may well put an end to the poor street reputation of the 147 gr. Some afficiondos always opt for the heavy bullet in the caliber, but, as mentioned, that hasn't been the best performer in 9mm. With the HST design, there's finally a 147 gr. that I'd carry---except I've opted for 124+P in HST or Speer, or 135 DPX.
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Old September 13, 2011, 11:54 PM   #84
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N, the LA County Sheriff's Department has been using 147gr 9mm since the Winchester SXT days. If they changed it has been in the last couple of years. The Remington Golden Saber is well over a decade old. The only weight of that round I see recommended by "experts" is the 147gr.

The "debate" about 147gr 9mm has been over for nearly a decade now. Even Massad Ayoob has admitted that the 147gr is a fine round. He still doesn't like it but admits that it does the job just fine.

The early 147gr rounds did suck. The manufacturers didn't take in to account many design factors. As they saw the deficencies of their work they improved designs. Now the 147gr 9mm hums right along as a "recommended" round.
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Old September 14, 2011, 06:09 AM   #85
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Just avoid the silver tip if you are worried about it.
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Old September 14, 2011, 01:29 PM   #86
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Good posts guys. That got a nice little debate sparked about older bullet vs. newer ones. I too think the .40 may of had a difference. However, this was more about the old 9mm vs. the newer 9mm. I wanted to discuss the difference in bullet and powder technology. The 9mm may have been a little weak in 1986 but they have made up for that a bit. I think a good 9mm from today may just sail through his heart like the .40 may, the key word is may. I also know LEO's are allowing people to go back to the 9mm from the .40. As someone already said this is probably due to newer technology and lower cost. Theres no question the .40 was superior to the 9mm in performance when put into service. Now what about today? The .40 still has the edge but I dont think they differ by as much as people like to think. Any and all opinions are welcome.


@Threegun--- I stay away from Silvertips as a SD load. I prefer Gold Dots, Fed HST, Winchester Ranger, Corbon, Hornaday, and Remington GS. There are also a few more I know Im missing and would use if the others werent available. I would like to have some ST's around in case I have to fight some werewolves though . (I know its not actually silver).
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Old September 14, 2011, 03:42 PM   #87
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Threegun--- I stay away from Silvertips as a SD load. I prefer Gold Dots, Fed HST, Winchester Ranger, Corbon, Hornaday, and Remington GS. There are also a few more I know Im missing and would use if the others werent available. I would like to have some ST's around in case I have to fight some werewolves though . (I know its not actually silver).
Ironically I shot a 140 pound hog in the head with a silver tip and it died instantly. Went in one side and left a dent the shape of the bullet on the other.

I don't get into the caliber wars much anymore and feel perfectly fine with my 9MM's or 45's.

The odds that we run into a Platt, a heavily armed determined attacker, are minimal. The odds that our silvertip would fail to stop the next Platt, when hit well, are minimal.

Heck I just trained a guy who was shot in the chest with a 45acp. He claims it hit the bottom of his heart, nipped it. Yet he not only survived but he picked up the gun and shot the guy who shot him in the face killing him. He said the guy shot him and then dropped the gun from surprise/remorse. He bent down picked up the gun shot the guy in the face and turned around and walked out. He blacked out a few steps out the door. Showed the huge scar and obvious bullet hole.
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Old September 14, 2011, 04:39 PM   #88
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The early 147gr rounds did suck. The manufacturers didn't take in to account many design factors. As they saw the deficencies of their work they improved designs. Now the 147gr 9mm hums right along as a "recommended" round.
Yes, perhaps. But the same bullet techhology that elevated it to respectable status also kept the 124+P ahead of it. As mentioned, HST 147 gr. may be an exception and may be up there with the 124 gr. loads.
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Old September 14, 2011, 08:14 PM   #89
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Heck I just trained a guy who was shot in the chest with a 45acp. He claims it hit the bottom of his heart, nipped it. Yet he not only survived but he picked up the gun and shot the guy who shot him in the face killing him. He said the guy shot him and then dropped the gun from surprise/remorse. He bent down picked up the gun shot the guy in the face and turned around and walked out. He blacked out a few steps out the door. Showed the huge scar and obvious bullet hole.


I would call BS on this one. You dont get your heart torn up and live. You would bleed out in very short order.
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Old September 14, 2011, 09:28 PM   #90
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Unlike the under-penetrating 9-minimeter STHP that was fired by Agent Dove, a 10mm, even at the cartridge's mid-range velocity, would have penetrated Platt's forearm and lung and stopped the fight sooner - thereby saving agents' lives. Debate over, end of story.

Carry on ...
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Old September 14, 2011, 09:32 PM   #91
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Here is an "In The Line Of Duty" clip from the 86 shoot out. Its a pretty good recreation of the shooting worth everyone watching. Yes there are some minor inaccuracy's but overall I think its pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBGfKtuo2AM

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Old September 14, 2011, 10:12 PM   #92
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I would call BS on this one. You dont get your heart torn up and live. You would bleed out in very short order.
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The heart is a muscle. People have survived bullet wounds to the heart many times. Obviously, there's a lot of luck involved with re: to the extent of the damage. Same as being hit in the brain and surviving to be still mentally functional.
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Old September 15, 2011, 12:59 AM   #93
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Just to let everyone know I am not trying to start a caliber war just discuss the effects of bullet trama. I also like to discuss how durable human beings actually are, I think we underestimate that sometimes. Yes the 10MM probably would smash his heart to mush . I saw that whole movie before when I was interested in the shootout, good post. The round strikes are inaccurate but they do a good job with the position of everyone. It is as close as you are going to get for a movie without going into SERIOUS detail. I would take the time to if it was my movie "In The Line of Duty" .

@Threegun-- Wow that is a crazy story. I believe it 100% and don't think its bs. I think it is 'possible' the same thing could of happened to the round that almost reached Platt's heart. I dont doubt any shooting stories I hear because I know how tough the human body is. A nipped heart did not stop that guy and as long as his heart wasnt hit bad he wouldnt bleed out as someone else said. He just picked up the gun and shot the guy, wow.
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Old September 15, 2011, 02:14 AM   #94
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The FBI shootout was big news when it happened and hotly debated and analyzed in most training that occured afterwards.

My big comment is that I went to the scene a year or two afterwards while on a fire detail in the 'Glades. Bullet marks were still evident in some of the masonary nearby, or so I thought. (painted over)

Initial ranges for the agents with handguns were LONG especially under STRESS of a gunfight. It seemed long for buckshot loaded pumpguns as well. And darn long for snubby back up guns.

Lessons I came away with from when the topic was current was a long gun/carbine is always better, and your handgun needs to be secured on your person in a holster.
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Old September 15, 2011, 02:53 AM   #95
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But the same bullet techhology that elevated it to respectable status also kept the 124+P ahead of it. As mentioned, HST 147 gr. may be an exception and may be up there with the 124 gr. loads.
It depends on if you prefer penetration and barrier penetration over minimal gains in expansion. A 124gr+p may give you 0.02" more expansion but usually at the cost of about 0.6 or 0.8 inches in penetration. I will give up a sliver of expansion for a tad more penetration and less yawing or deformation through intermediate barriers.

124gr standard pressure rounds from Hornady (TAP) and Remington both barely meet or fail to meet the FBI protocol according to manufacturer printed data.

I carry a 9mm with 147gr rounds. Currently they are the better choice, in my opinion, based on what I have read from the manufacturers' reports. My department disagrees with me and choses 124gr+p Federal HST for issued 9mms.

Then again it is a debate over hundreths of an inch in reality. Either 124+p or 147gr shall work equally well. Again, in my opinion. The truth is bullets are designed to meet the FBI protocol for the most part. So, the advances that have pushed 147gr 9mm bullets haven't effected the 124gr or 124gr+p as much. They are all designed to meet a similar performance window. Looking at the info from various manufacturers and tests pretty much proves it, in my opinion.
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Old September 15, 2011, 03:34 AM   #96
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It depends on if you prefer penetration and barrier penetration over minimal gains in expansion. A 124gr+p may give you 0.02" more expansion but usually at the cost of about 0.6 or 0.8 inches in penetration. I will give up a sliver of expansion for a tad more penetration and less yawing or deformation through intermediate
Well, in your line of work, barrier penetration has to be considered.

In my situation, CCW, I most likely have to worry about Bubba in the parking lot, or a Goblin in the parking garage. I typically carry a .40 caliber and am perfectly happey with CorBon's 135 Gr. JHP that penetrates 10" with jacket separations that produce extra projectiles very similar to the .357 revolver.

So far, I haven't read any complaints by LV Metro from when it was their duty load.

My usual load, however, is HST 155 or 165. I'd have no problem with 180, either.

When I carry a nine, I prefer DPX, HST 124gr, GD 124 gr. is my 3rd choice. I did buy a few boxes of the 147 gr. It's always an option if I want to carry it.

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Old September 15, 2011, 03:52 AM   #97
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Things are different than they used to be when a lighter faster bullet meant better expansion and less penetration, and the heavy slow bullet penetrated more at the expense of expansion.

Designs like the HST are different. Can't remember where (maybe TFL), but I saw a pic of a 165 gr. in gelatin with petals folded all the way back. The 180 gr. compared to it, traveling at less velocity, penetrated LESS because the petals were sticking straight out and stopped it sooner. Obviously the lighter HST "expanded" sooner", but kept on "expanding" back decreasing diameter and increasing penetration.

I know, gelatin isn't people, but it is the best simulation of human tissue that Martin Fackler could come up with--minus bones.

Hell of a note if we have to go to light bullets for penetration and heavy ones for reliable expansion (at least recovered diameters).

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Old September 15, 2011, 06:11 AM   #98
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There is a little something for everyone in this gunfight. This, along with KC 1933, Newhall 1970, and LA 1997 are the most important shootouts in American History, IMO. God bless the brave agents who lost their lives as well as those who survived and won the fight.

I like this comment from BookerT

Quote:
The main lesson I take from it, as I take from most accounts of similar events, is that taking decisive, aggressive action is a key component to successful outcomes.
Some others touched on it as well. Platt, completely outnumbered, almost won this gunfight even though he took a lethal hit right off the bat. His aggressive mindset put the agents on the defensive and understandably so. When you are taking rifle fire, it is hard to take the offensive, and very easy to get pinned down. I think after the initial shock and defensive action that takes place, the officer (or soldier) needs to be thinking of manuvering towards the threat. I've seen it in gunfight after gunfight, the person on the offensive usually wins (Newhall is the greatest example of all when it comes to police shootouts). And, the same thing happened at the end of this one. As the fight culminated with both Platt and Mattix getting into one of the agents car, Agent Mireles took the offensive by moving in on them, firing as he went. His aggressive action ended the threat.

Now, when I say aggressive action, I don't mean an all-out one man frontal bonzai assault. I mean using cover and flanking strategies to close with and neutralize the threat. However, it is something that must be thought about and trained on before hand so that under fire, it is an automatic reaction. When the real deal goes down, all you will have is what you've been programmed to do, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old September 15, 2011, 07:46 AM   #99
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Old September 15, 2011, 08:29 AM   #100
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Replace zen with balls.
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