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Old September 5, 2011, 11:30 PM   #51
TylerD45ACP
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I thought about that too and agree. They would be more used to assault rifle fire than a typical agent. Thats probably why Platt just opened up so fast with the Mini 14, and because he was nuts. He was willing to use the rifle with total disregard for anyone. I think the agents did a decent job under the circumstances though. They were a bit behind from the start but ended up getting both BG's. Unfortunatley two agents lost their lives. I know at least 2 agents were swat though, 1 missing his glasses.
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Old September 6, 2011, 10:46 AM   #52
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237975

The agents were looking for the pair, hoping to spot them via one of the vehicles they suspected they had stolen.

What they planned to do with them once they spotted them, if nothing else, certainly went awry.
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Old September 6, 2011, 11:06 AM   #53
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OT.....

Quote:
It's FAR, far, far more likely that installing a roll cage and 5-point racing harness will someday save my life than will being "prudently cautious" at the shooting range.
Not sure about the 5-point harness, but installing a roll cage may actually kill you: your car is designed to crumple and absorb energy.... stiffening may increase force on YOU ..... not only that, a roll cage complicates extrication proceedures by the FD, increasing time to get you out without further injury .... and time is not on your side if you have sustained serious trauma....

So anything you do has consequenses ...... don't go shooting where you can shoot from a holster (gravel pit) because youare afraid of Mattix and Platt II and you may not be able to clear leather when you NEED to, in time ....
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Old September 6, 2011, 11:43 AM   #54
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With regards to shooting in the boonies (or even at uncontrolled public ranges out in the woods), I do prefer to bring a shooting buddy, for safety's sake.

Call me paranoid, but at a range that has no security or RO, I also keep a loaded gun on my person at all times. Doesn't mean I can't get shot in the back by a Platt or a Matix, in the extremely unlikely event that somebody of that ilk were to show up; does mean that I won't be in a situation where I am unarmed, and know that something bad is about to happen.
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Old September 6, 2011, 12:56 PM   #55
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This has turned into an interesting discussion about shooting in the boonies alone. I agree this is a solid point because the shooters were ambushed by Matix and Platt. I think they came across as friendly to one of them at 1st time they shot them so people must be wary.

Somebody already mentioned this but how about all the gun hands or even just arms that were hit in the gunfight, think about it. Your gun hand is going to be infront of your COM so its got a good chance of getting hit. Platts right arm was riddled with bullets, Matix's right was hit, along with at least two agents being hit in the hand and one in the arm. Supposedly, Jerry Dove's Smith took a round and stopped working on him. Alot of rounds hit their opponents hand/arm. A lesson I learned from this was practice with both hands on every weapon. Yes I am less proficient with my left but wouldnt feel uncomfortable if forced to use it. I think this shootout provides a valuable lesson that you very well may have to use your off hand.
-- Also I wont go anywhere without a backup gun now. I just bought myself a little Seecamp .32 that I keep with me along with my primary CCW from now on. Its a little something extra should I need it and I do feel more comfortable with it.
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Old September 7, 2011, 02:24 PM   #56
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Call me paranoid, but at a range that has no security or RO, I also keep a loaded gun on my person at all times. Doesn't mean I can't get shot in the back by a Platt or a Matix, in the extremely unlikely event that somebody of that ilk were to show up; does mean that I won't be in a situation where I am unarmed, and know that something bad is about to happen.
Likewise MLeake. I guess i'm paranoid too.

Whenever I go to the range I always have another loaded gun on me concealed besides the gun(s) i'm shooting. This gun is for SD only and doesn't get used otherwise.

I don't know about anyone else here but I don't consider a shotgun, unless it's an AA-12 or something similar, to be on the same level as a .223 or .308 carbine-battle rifle.
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Old September 7, 2011, 02:55 PM   #57
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Whenever I go to the range I always have another loaded gun on me concealed besides the gun(s) i'm shooting. This gun is for SD only and doesn't get used otherwise.
I'm an RSO and I always pack heat whilst on duty.

Quote:
I don't know about anyone else here but I don't consider a shotgun, unless it's an AA-12 or something similar, to be on the same level as a .223 or .308 carbine-battle rifle.
They shouldn't be on the same level. The battle rifle has a wider range of effectiveness while the shotgun is more specialized to shorter ranges. Inside 45 yards and for me its a toss up. The shotgun gives quicker engagement and more room for errors. The rifle has more capacity and precision. Most folks forced to choose are better served with the rifle because of the capacity and longer effective range.
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Old September 10, 2011, 08:23 PM   #58
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Does anyone think the 40S&W would have come about without the results of this shootout? Or do you think the shootout is the only thing that propelled the round into existence. I have often wondered what might have been different. Just going to throw that out there and see what people think?
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Old September 10, 2011, 10:53 PM   #59
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I have not studied this shooting, I do remember it when it happend but I was in Germany at the time.
Here I read this Thread and think of what has been said about going out to an informal shooting range, and that is exactly what I do most of the time by my self out in the desert, and I live not to far from Ciudad Juarez Mexico, maybe a mile or two if that, but as most of you have said S.A. situational awarness. Most of my friend are leos, They tell me some of the stuff that they come aross,some bad stuff that the cartel do. sorry, rambling. We work odd hours so its hard to get together and shoot, I am not a leo.
I can relate to a lot of posts in where as you see cars / people off in the distance that do not make contact with you and be very observent where they are. I do have another gun that I CC when I go out to shoot. and park my car to the back of me when I go out shooting.
I see tactical training videos where the shooter takes a few shots and looks from side to side.
That action just comes automatic with me just because I am out in the desert by my self but I do a 360 just to feel some what secure, I have a bad habit of always looking around and not focusing on the subject that is talking to me but I do hear what is being said my wife gets pist all the time, sorry I went off on a tangent, enough. just wanted to talk.


I liked post 37
I mean, if I'm going to be getting on my motorcycle on a regular basis and not being bothered by the fact that doing so is undeniably the most dangerous thing I'll do on any given day, what sort of justification would I have for worrying about something that has been documented to have happened once, maybe twice, EVER? On the flip side, if I'm going to be worried enough about dying in an event that is so astronomically unlikely that I would not go shooting in a remote place without bringing back-up, how would I justify the WILLFUL exposure to such a high-risk activity as riding a motorcycle or, frankly, driving a car for that matter.

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Old September 11, 2011, 07:13 PM   #60
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You should study the shooting its very interested if you are as interested as I am in what the human body is capable of. Movies show people flying to the ground after getting shot in the chest one time and they are dead before they hit the ground. While that can happen in real life, the human body is an amazing machine and can be much harder to stop than people believe. If you want to look into this shootout further get W. French Anderson's book Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986 FBI Firefight. I have read it more than once and am amazed at what both parties accomplished that day with the gunshot wounds they recieved. It was not the 9mm's fault, and the FBI was so worried about overpenetration then the Silvertips they were using was a poor round at the time.
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Old September 11, 2011, 07:20 PM   #61
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They tried to hide poor tactics by blaming it on bullet performance.
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Old September 11, 2011, 07:36 PM   #62
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Exactly, the situation was approached a bit too lax for the way they knew these guys could respond. In my opinion the 9mm's did a decent job even for the underpenetrating Silvertips they used. The 1st hit did sever the brachial artery pass through the right arm, enter btw 5 & 6th rib collape the lung and hit pulmonary arteries. It stopped an inch shy of his heart, yes. Everyone focuses on how it missed the heart by an inch. What if he didnt get hit by that round, the fight could have been a lot worse since Im guessing that round did slow him down a bit and messed up his ability to hold his rifle very well. An uninjured Platt escaping from the Car, or minorly injured, is a scary thought. More agents may have died. There should have been at least 1 .223 in each FBI car readily available. I dont like the stigma attached to the 9mm because of this though, it is a more than adequate round, imo.
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Old September 11, 2011, 09:06 PM   #63
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Carrying 9mm certainly did not help things. More damage to a body is just that. In combat the more damage the better. Certainly a long gun would have been best but when you have to go with what you have take all you can. 9mm was not much. a bigger hole is always better
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Old September 11, 2011, 10:53 PM   #64
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The 'tactical lesson' I learned from the 'shootout'...



And...



And...



Have a nice day...
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Old September 12, 2011, 05:45 AM   #65
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The 'tactical lesson' I learned from the 'shootout'...
Don't get into Law Enforcement.
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Old September 12, 2011, 06:17 AM   #66
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My point is, it makes no sense to me to be so worried about such astronomically unlikely events. Doing so would make me wonder about all the events "in between", let's say motorcycle riding and getting ambushed and killed in a rock quarry. What sort of steps do I take to prepare or protect myself from THOSE events? None, probably. So why the rock quarry?
Bite your tongue. I shoot on public land, mostly, and am often alone and most always in posession of multiple guns--as are many shooters. Doesn't happen often, but I've have some folks come by and look me over that alerted my survival instincts. That's why I take an 870 or Mini-14 when I'm alone and isolated all by my lonesome.

Does that make sense to you, now?
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:34 AM   #67
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I've also seen some questionable looking types at state-owned but unmanned public ranges in Florida, particularly in the Ocala National Forest.

Look at it another way... if I bring multiple firearms for a shooting session, I literally have thousands of dollars in very liquid and portable assets sitting there, in plain sight. People get robbed every day, over less.
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:53 AM   #68
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Very true it always pays to be wary. I subscribe to the bigger is better idea myself and prefer the 45ACP. However, I still believe the 9mm is an adequate SD round and like it. The should of had the long guns out and throwing lead.

@TraderJack-- I like the 10MM, dont own one yet but plan on getting a Delta Elite in the future. I always liked the 10MM more than the 40S&W. Plus I prefer the 1911 platform and the round goes perfectly with it. The 10MM is cool round and I cant wait to own one. It is potent like a magnum round but is not in a massive semi auto like the Desert Eagle, for example.
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Old September 12, 2011, 07:27 PM   #69
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Look at it another way... if I bring multiple firearms for a shooting session, I literally have thousands of dollars in very liquid and portable assets sitting there, in plain sight. People get robbed every day, over less.
Here in Reno, two gun stores were robbed by driving a car through a window and looting the counter. They all have posts for protection now, but the value of guns to criminals is obvious.

No, there hasn't been any kind of rash of incidents in my neck of the woods (N. Nev.), and robbing armed people obviously has it's hazards. But you never know. There are folks out there who'd take you down.

Being alone with a number of guns is a lot like carrying large somes of money. While shooting an elk can bring a predator like a Grizzly in some places, shooting alone on public land can bring everything from BLM LE to......well, you get the point.
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Old September 12, 2011, 08:36 PM   #70
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Situational Awarness should go everywhere you go. This should not change due to the fact your are out shooting. If you are alone you should always be careful of your surroundings, I think most already know this. Yes the chances that this may happen in an ambush fashion like 1986 are small. However, that doesn't mean you shouldnt be prepared for it to happen, imo.
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Old September 12, 2011, 09:09 PM   #71
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@TylerD45ACP... It might be difficult to locate a nice Delta... But Kimbers are still available... New.
My Eclipse rocks! I used to shoot bowling pin matches with it and it never failed to get 'ooooo's' and ahhhhhh's after 6 of the 10 pins were splintered beyond further use.
Take a good look at the Eclipse Custom II. I don't think you'll be disappointed...
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Old September 12, 2011, 09:19 PM   #72
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Cool thanks for the post and reccomendation. I would prefer the Delta and if I can find a nice one I will grab that. However I will check into the Kimber as you suggested. The 10MM is just too cool to not have a 1911 chambered for it. I have a feeling once I get one its going to shoot right up to the top of the list with the 45ACP .
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Old September 12, 2011, 09:57 PM   #73
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Bullet/agent perdormance

It should be noted that Platt took a round early in the fight from a distance of 47 yards, if memory serves me correctly. That round, a 9mm Win Silvertip, penetrated Platt's arm, entered his chest and stopped just short of his heart. Had that bullet penetrated just a bit more, the outcome would have been very different.

We lose sight of the fact that the essential elements to winning a gun battle, in order of importance are: mindset, judgment, tactics, marksmanship and firearm. Regrettably, and I hate to second guess LEOs, that two agents died and several more wounded is evidence enough the FBI was not prepared for this gunbattle. All the elements were lackingto varying degrees.

But, as the FBI is our nation's premier law enforcement agency, They studied and demanded better bullet performance and they got it. We all benefit from having available premium self defense bullets that didn't exist prior to 1986.
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Old September 12, 2011, 10:06 PM   #74
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Platt would have been dead in short order but the 9mm just did not have the power to do the job. One in the heart and its lights out in short order. a .40 would have put a hole in his pump.
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Old September 12, 2011, 10:50 PM   #75
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See thats where I think its possible they wouldnt have performed much differently. I too like bigger calibers 45ACP particularly. However, while I agree the .40 may have reached his heart I still dont think the 9mm is to blame. Too many factors go into a gunfight to say with any certainty about anything that could have done. A .40 could have ended up in the same place, though less likely.
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