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Old September 4, 2011, 04:20 AM   #26
NWPilgrim
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But probably a great many of us have shot or thought about shooting at an unofficial, de facto range like an old rock quarry. I'll bet a number of members reading this right now know of such a place, and might even go there regularly to practice. Over the years, I've been to any number of such places.

The last thing we'd ever imagine would be to be ambushed in such a place by a fellow shooter. But this story makes it clear how much of a sitting duck one can be when alone in such a place.

In light of this story, I'm going to re-think going to such places,
and if I go at all, I'll make sure that I'm not alone and that my companions are aware of what could possibly go down when other folks show up there.
Exactly what I have done since I first read this story many years ago. I do go to a rock pit often for informal shooting/plinking since the local clubs have restrictions on types of targets and only at set ranges and not easy to shoot from various positions.

When I do go, I always carry my G23, or carry the spare when I am shooting the carry one. I scope out the area before setting up, and try to bring a friend along if possible. Besides the G23 I also keep a rifle an AR15 or Garand loaded and handy, and carry it with me when I go down range to set/check targets. If a friend is along I make sure they understand to keep an eye out for approaching vehicles when I am shooting.

Most vehicles that come along either just drive on by or slow down to chat briefly, or get out and piicl up some brass, or start setting up on the other side of the pit.

A few times cars/trucks have come along that seem hinky. They park off to the side and do not approach to chat or do anything to indicate they plan to shoot. In a remote area with no other destinations in the area that is odd. I make sure they see I am keeping an eye on them and that I am armed with at least one pistol and on rifle (I'm usually shooting at least one other pistol and rifle as well). Sometimes they stay there for quite some time. I don;t think that is natural. If it were me I would leave the shooter alone and have his fun, or I would go over to chat. I would not lurk off to the side and say nothing but watch for half an hour. If I am alone I may just pack up and head out. If the car leaves I wait and listen to make sure they keep going and not just stopping around the corner.

Most of the time it is just a great day of shooting, but I am grateful for having read about Platt and Matix for those few times people act weird while I am there. An ounce of prevention and awareness are worth a ton of "cure."
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Old September 4, 2011, 05:51 AM   #27
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No plan survives the first contact, intact.
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Even though no plan survives the first action, having no plan is even worse, unless the actors are so thoroughly trained together they always are on the same plan and same page mentally. Doesn't sound like the FBI agents were that highly trained as a reaction team in this case.
Two very good pieces of advice, lets try to combine them.

No plan survives the first contact, intact and those with no plan seldom survive first contact, intact.
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Old September 4, 2011, 06:28 AM   #28
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Massad Ayoob did his usual excellent, highly-detailed analysis of this incident in his "The Ayoob Files" column in "American Handgunner" magazine. A collection of these articles {including that one} was gathered into a book by the same name; you can very likely get it on Amazon.com.
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Old September 4, 2011, 08:11 AM   #29
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Remote target shooting

That Platt and Matix posed as ordinary target shooters in order to ambush and kill other target shooters for their guns and cars----this is not the first or last time it has happened. There was an incident, also in Florida along similar lines and there have been several cases of hunters targeted and killed by either madmen fugitives or eco-terrorists.

It's difficult to be so wary all the time. Some guy stops, he seems friendly, asks if he may take a few shots from his piece, offers to let you try his gun, then asks, or you offer to let him try yours, you turn your back for whatever reason and it's all over. As a few have said, perhaps it's best not to be alone at a remote shooting pit.
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Old September 4, 2011, 09:41 AM   #30
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That Platt and Matix posed as ordinary target shooters in order to ambush and kill other target shooters for their guns and cars----this is not the first or last time it has happened. There was an incident, also in Florida along similar lines and there have been several cases of hunters targeted and killed by either madmen fugitives or eco-terrorists.

It's difficult to be so wary all the time. Some guy stops, he seems friendly, asks if he may take a few shots from his piece, offers to let you try his gun, then asks, or you offer to let him try yours, you turn your back for whatever reason and it's all over. As a few have said, perhaps it's best not to be alone at a remote shooting pit.
Right on! "NWPilgrim" describes being wary of those who strike him as "hinky", but it's more likely the ones who seem normal and stop to chat who will catch you unawares.

Jose Collazo, whose black Monte Carlo was stolen by the BGs as he was shooting at a rock pit, was left for dead but survived the attack. If he is still alive, it would be interesting to hear how Platt and Matix got the drop on him.
Or perhaps he and Emilio Briel, the rock pit shooter murdered by the pair in 1985, were shot with a rifle from a distance. It's tough to defend against a guy who drives up and, without any subterfuge, tries to pick you off with a rifle.
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Old September 4, 2011, 12:16 PM   #31
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True. These are good points about being alone in any are while shooting. Someone should definitley always be with you.
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Old September 4, 2011, 12:58 PM   #32
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I realize it's happened, but if you seriously can't go shooting without worrying about getting ambushed and murdered, well, I guess I'd say you need more to worry about. I'd bet you're more likely to get struck by lightning from a clear blue sky.
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Old September 4, 2011, 06:16 PM   #33
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I realize it's happened, but if you seriously can't go shooting without worrying about getting ambushed and murdered, well, I guess I'd say you need more to worry about. I'd bet you're more likely to get struck by lightning from a clear blue sky.
On the contrary it is no different than any other time. You have to be aware of your surroundings, the proverbial Condition Yellow.

What I am saying is that at a gravel pit it is easy to let your guard down because you are armed and shooting. We need to be aware that just because we are target shooting does not mean that we no longer possible targets of someone else. If I am anywhere and another person starts behaving strangely and is focused on me then I am going to do something about it: leave, let him know I am watching him as well, or demonstrate that I with a group.

Just because you are alert to POTENTIAL dangers does not mean you are scared or anxious. When you are displaying something that others are willing to kill for (guns, gold, wads of cash, etc.) then it is prudent to be more cautious.
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Old September 4, 2011, 06:27 PM   #34
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The last thing we'd ever imagine would be to be ambushed in such a place by a fellow shooter. But this story makes it clear how much of a sitting duck one can be when alone in such a place.
Its hard to overcome the element of surprise. If someone wants you dead, you are likely dead. There is safety in numbers and if confronted alone by a stranger just make sure you suspect everyone.
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Old September 4, 2011, 06:50 PM   #35
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Good point, Threegun.
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Old September 4, 2011, 07:31 PM   #36
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Bottom line...

"Both of the BG’s sustained what should have been fight ending wounds in the initial exchange of gun fire; do to reasons that are still unknown, both were able to remain in the fight. I believe it’s’ important to note that autopsy reports of both BG.’s indicated that neither had either drugs or alcohol in their systems when they died."

As a police officer/firearms instructor/heavy reader I can say the following is100% true...

1. There are so many variables in individual human physiology
x2.There are so many variables in ballistic factors/performance
= The exact same persons and firearms could result in 100 different ends.
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Old September 4, 2011, 09:52 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by NWPilgrim
Just because you are alert to POTENTIAL dangers does not mean you are scared or anxious. When you are displaying something that others are willing to kill for (guns, gold, wads of cash, etc.) then it is prudent to be more cautious.
Yes but "prudently cautious" and "don't go shooting without bringing a lookout in case someone wants to kill you" are two different things, the latter of which seems to be implied by your "don't go shooting alone in a remote spot" comment.

I simply can not imagine any of my friends not thinking me crazy if I said "Hey man, want to go shooting? One of us can shoot while the other keeps a lookout in case anyone sneaks up on us."

As I've said before, some dangers, though undeniably possible, are so unimaginably improbable as to be well beyond my need to be bothered by them.

I mean, if I'm going to be getting on my motorcycle on a regular basis and not being bothered by the fact that doing so is undeniably the most dangerous thing I'll do on any given day, what sort of justification would I have for worrying about something that has been documented to have happened once, maybe twice, EVER? On the flip side, if I'm going to be worried enough about dying in an event that is so astronomically unlikely that I would not go shooting in a remote place without bringing back-up, how would I justify the WILLFUL exposure to such a high-risk activity as riding a motorcycle or, frankly, driving a car for that matter.
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Old September 4, 2011, 10:03 PM   #38
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Yes but "prudently cautious" and "don't go shooting without bringing a lookout in case someone wants to kill you" are two different things, the latter of which seems to be implied by your "don't go shooting alone in a remote spot" comment.
You are contorting, or at best exaggerating, what I said, which was:
Quote:
I do go to a rock pit often for informal shooting/plinking since the local clubs have restrictions on types of targets and only at set ranges and not easy to shoot from various positions.

When I do go, I always carry my G23, or carry the spare when I am shooting the carry one. I scope out the area before setting up, and try to bring a friend along if possible.
How you inflate that to "Don't go shooting without a friend!" I don't know. Maybe you have some phobias you are projecting. I would say at best I can find someone available about one fourth of the times I go to the pit. I conduct my life as I want, while aware and prepared the best I can.
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Old September 4, 2011, 10:33 PM   #39
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You also said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWPilgrim
When I do go, I always carry my G23, or carry the spare when I am shooting the carry one. I scope out the area before setting up, and try to bring a friend along if possible. Besides the G23 I also keep a rifle an AR15 or Garand loaded and handy, and carry it with me when I go down range to set/check targets. If a friend is along I make sure they understand to keep an eye out for approaching vehicles when I am shooting.
So, you try to bring a friend and, when you do, you give them explicit instructions to be on the lookout for approaching vehicles.

My apologies. It's not that you WON'T go shooting without a lookout in case someone wants to kill you, you just TRY NOT TO.

I mean no offense. Really, I don't. What you call "prudently cautious", I might consider paranoia. You might consider me to be naive and unprepared. C'est la vie.

My point is, it makes no sense to me to be so worried about such astronomically unlikely events. Doing so would make me wonder about all the events "in between", let's say motorcycle riding and getting ambushed and killed in a rock quarry. What sort of steps do I take to prepare or protect myself from THOSE events? None, probably. So why the rock quarry?

Or, let's say I take these precautions at the rock quarry but I smoke cigarettes. Is that logical? If I'm prepared for such incredibly rare events, why would I do something so commonly, undeniably fatal?

It makes me wonder about much more likely events and precautions which I, and I'm sure you, ignore. My car for example. It's FAR, far, far more likely that installing a roll cage and 5-point racing harness will someday save my life than will being "prudently cautious" at the shooting range. Such precautions aren't all that expensive either. No more than a nice rifle and scope, certainly no more than two. Why do we ignore such things and place such emphasis on things of such undeniable, astronomically lower probability?

It all comes down to our own interests. It really does. I don't have a roll cage and harness but I do carry a gun. Why? I want to carry a gun and I don't want a roll cage. That's all. I'd like to BELIEVE there's more to it, but there isn't. I will likely live the rest of my life without ever needing my gun, "prudent caution" or otherwise. When I die, it will likely be disease that kills me and if not, almost certainly in a motor vehicle accident but I will die still "convinced" that carrying my gun all those years was "prudent caution".

How does any of this relate to the OP? Simply this. It's lots of "fun" to analyze and conjecture about these events, just don't forget that we do it because we want to and, in all likelihood, none of it will ever matter a whit to any of us or anyone we know. We will mostly, by a large margin, die the same deaths as those around us who have no interest in terminal ballistics, no interest in firearms, do not carry one and wouldn't know "prudent caution" if it slapped them in the face.
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Old September 4, 2011, 11:09 PM   #40
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My point is, it makes no sense to me to be so worried about such astronomically unlikely events. Doing so would make me wonder about all the events "in between", let's say motorcycle riding and getting ambushed and killed in a rock quarry. What sort of steps do I take to prepare or protect myself from THOSE events? None, probably. So why the rock quarry?
Using your argument why do you own a gun for SD, if you do at all? If you live in a decent neighborhood and mind your business the chance of you being attacked is very remote. Statistically, there is insignificant reason that you should need a gun. I have lived in a many areas, some nice some not so and have never needed to shoot my gun for SD.

You make good use of the anti-gun logic of why we should not be allowed to own guns. I prefer the Jeff Cooper mindset of being aware that a threat can happen anywhere and no one is so special they are free of danger. It may be a remote possibility, but I do not plan on letting that one in a million chance do me or my family harm.

You will probably go through your life with no problems and wonder why people think they need to be alert. Enjoy your preoccupations, but some poor sucker somewhere will suffer the consequences of adopting your mindset. It may not be you, but it could be you as easily as the next guy.

So tell me, since you criticize my mindset to be alert, even at a gravel pit when target shooting, do you have any guns handy for self defense at any time during the day? Do you ever go on alert or do you blithely wander through life not caring what goes on around you? No offense of course.
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Old September 4, 2011, 11:24 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by NWPilgrim
So tell me, since you criticize my mindset to be alert, even at a gravel pit when target shooting, do you have any guns handy for self defense at any time during the day? Do you ever go on alert or do you blithely wander through life not caring what goes on around you? No offense of course.
No offense taken.

If you'd read my post, you'd see that I said that I carry a gun. More specifically, I carry a gun almost every day and have since the day I got my permit. I also consider myself to be "prudently cautious".

You'd see, if you carefully read my previous post, that I in fact ask the very questions of myself that you are attempting to use against me.

What my "mindset" is, is clarity and honest self-evaluation. I am not in "condition white" and I not naive and vulnerable.

What I am is aware that what I do and what I carry likely matters not at all. Any fears that I have... about that car who stops and watches me, yes, I've had those fears, or the not so nice looking dude who strolls into my shop 3 minutes before closing when I have no orders.... are just that, fears. None have ever born themselves out and, likely, none of them ever will.

I prepare and equip for an event that is virtually certain to never occur. So do you. The difference, is that I don't try to convince people that I prepare because it's "worth" preparing for. I prepare because I want to.

The point being again, do you ever stop and consider the myriad of things for which you DON'T prepare, things that are FAR more likely to kill you, and wonder to yourself, why? Why do I carry a gun and worry about that car stopping when I DON'T worry about roll cages and safety harnesses?

See, I do ask those questions. That's the big difference between me and a lot of "gun people". The difference between me and the anti-gun people is not the question, but the answer. My answer is because I am free to do so as I please. Theirs, is not.

There is no more sense in not asking the question than there is in eliminating the freedoms of those who choose to answer it differently.
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Old September 5, 2011, 03:37 AM   #42
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Or, let's say I take these precautions at the rock quarry but I smoke cigarettes. Is that logical? If I'm prepared for such incredibly rare events, why would I do something so commonly, undeniably fatal?
People ask me why I smoke occasionally but carry a gun. It is the difference between making the choice about your life expectancy and letting someone else do it. If I accept my actions will kill me that is fine. I do not have to accept that someone else's actions will kill me. I can take measures to improve my odds

I go shooting by myself often on private land. It is secluded enough that it could be much like the rock quarry. I don't take back up. I don't have a dog in that fight either way. I was just giving a little perspective.

Quote:
just don't forget that we do it because we want to and, in all likelihood, none of it will ever matter a whit to any of us or anyone we know.
Hi, my name is Mike and I have used firearms on four occasions to protect my life and the life of others. My father also used handguns to protect his life and the lives of his family at least three times.

Some of us atract trouble. I know that half of my issues could have been avoided by not stopping for gas after midnight. Half of the events were broad day light and the criminals were acting based on percieved opportunity.

For some of us it does matter and we will need all the knowledge we can get. The bell curve has two sides and you can fall on either.
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Old September 5, 2011, 04:12 AM   #43
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Any fears that I have... about that car who stops and watches me, yes, I've had those fears, or the not so nice looking dude who strolls into my shop 3 minutes before closing when I have no orders.... are just that, fears.
Which is exactly as I suggested. You are projecting your fears onto my actions and motives. You see, I am NOT afraid when I am being cautious. I take note of things that do not seem right and then take action to prevent them, or be ready to respond if they play out. I do not go around being afraid every time something hinky comes along. And I don't carry because I am afraid.

If you scare that easily then I can see how you would expect others to be in fear as well.

When I go hiking in the mountains I put a lot of preparation and planning in to avoid pitfalls and discomforts so I can spend more time enjoying what I am doing. If the weather starts looking suspicious, or the rock looks more slippery than usual or the river crossing deeper than normal then I am going to evaluate and respond to those atypical conditions as well. I am not in fear.

Same thing with being cautious at the gravel pit. I still go whenever I want to, but like hiking I take a buddy along if possible and I make sure we are on the same page as to what to expect and what to watch for. Seems pretty natural to me and I am surprised anyone would interpret this as being fearful or paranoid, unless of course they are often afraid themselves. I understand that.
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Old September 5, 2011, 07:57 AM   #44
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Sounds like Hypocrisy.

I bet its just a big misunderstanding though. Both of you guys sound the same but you just don't realize it.
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Old September 5, 2011, 03:07 PM   #45
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If you are alone and shooting in a remote area be careful. This goes without saying you never know what kind of animal or BG could creep up on you. Keep a look out and keep looking around. But, I believe If someone really wants to ambush you they probably will suprise you. Id say try to be as alert as possible so you wont get suprised, if you do youre probably dead.

Back to the shootout though. I developed a mindset from this shootout that
1) If I'm hit that doesnt necessarily mean Im going to die, but even if I am, I want to get the SOB who got me. I will continue fighting until I am unable because I know the body can and I want to live.
2) I do not expect BG's that I may have to ever engage in a SD shoot to drop from a couple hits. I am expecting that every adversary is going to be difficult to stop. If they arent thats great but I want to be prepared.
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Old September 5, 2011, 05:24 PM   #46
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Well said
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Old September 5, 2011, 05:46 PM   #47
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I just thought those were a couple important lessons that could be learned from the shootout. I try .
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Old September 5, 2011, 06:08 PM   #48
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In my current job we use this shoot-out as both types of examples. For example, speed reloads and combat mindset. To bring a primary or a secondary to a real gunfight. Also if you notice the BG's had alot of stress innoculation prior to the incident, I am unsure if the FBI agents invovled were prior service or prior gun fight survivors?
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Old September 5, 2011, 06:43 PM   #49
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That is true and a good point, kaylorinhi. I know Matix was in the Marines and Platt was in the Army Rangers, I think. Im not sure about the agents military background, I know at least one was a vietnam vet. However, it did seem that Platt/Matix were more innoculated to stress you said. They were ready to react with heavy violence at the drop of a hat. I think the agents underestimated the response their adversaries had to the felony stop .

I think its good you use this shootout at your job for examples. It provides a lot of information on how people can react in a shootout. How stress is a major factor; to have a combat mindset. Also, how adrenaline can keep you going even though you are technically dead.
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Old September 5, 2011, 10:26 PM   #50
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I know Matix was in the Marines and Platt was in the Army Rangers

And this was in their advantage as the military, particularity the infantry, stresses much more aggressive, high-volume, assault-style fire than LE.
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