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Old September 1, 2011, 04:18 PM   #1
BarryLee
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Probation Officer Killed During Training

There was an accident at a Department of Corrections training center in Georgia yesterday that resulted in the death of a 24 year old rookie Probation Officer. They are not really releasing many details, but I have linked to the article anyway hopefully they will add to it later.

One of the points they make in the article and also on TV is that the training was routine. I wonder if the perceived “routine” nature of the training contributed to this incident. A good lesson to all of us not to allow the various everyday tasks that we perform with and around guns to become too casual.


http://www.ajc.com/news/probation-of...t-1152963.html
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Old September 1, 2011, 04:30 PM   #2
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Every time I see one of these training "Accidents" I go cold, so preventable, of course if he shot himself, it could have been "Not" an accident also.
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Old September 1, 2011, 04:47 PM   #3
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Yes, it often seems to boil down to someone not following proper procedure or the fact that the proper procedures were not in place. The reality is that only under the most unusual situations would something like this not be preventable. However, based on the limited information that they have released it is difficult to really make any definitive statement related to this incident.
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Last edited by BarryLee; September 1, 2011 at 10:49 PM.
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Old September 1, 2011, 07:25 PM   #4
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I bet they used unload guns for FOF and pointed them at each other and after lunch or such someone 'forgot' they had loaded their gun at lunch time.

Near Dallas about 8 years ago they had a swat exercise at a highschool in the summer. One of the trainers during lunch loaded his gun with real ammo (they had been using simulation rounds during practice.) Well he demo'ed with a shotgun at another trainer and when he missed his shot he went to his handgun and shot the other trainer dead.

And that is why I do not like using real guns for ANY FOF training, no matter how many times they are checked to make sure they are empty.

People forget, including me, so at home I have dummy guns for all my training.

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Old September 1, 2011, 08:28 PM   #5
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accidental shooting

True. Jim Cirillo stated in his book that accidental discharges will happen. He said that they happened to him although by that time he was very experienced, and he warned readers that the only way to avoid that was to treat all firearms as if they were loaded even - and especially - if you had just checked and were sure they were unloaded. It is a good thing to be subjected to criticism for being too careful; much better than shooting a friend or family member.
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Old September 1, 2011, 09:45 PM   #6
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One way to help insure no accidents during training is if you are not on the range, or firing line, NO AMMO SHOULD BE PRESENT. One class I recently took went as far as having everyone stand up and frisk themselves for ammo, at the start and each and every time we came back from breaks or lunch. Not even the old Barney Fife "one bullet in the front shirt pocket" is allowed.
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Old September 1, 2011, 09:48 PM   #7
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We use dummy guns for ALL of our weapons retention and force on force training. No exceptions at all. You can not accidentally shoot someone with a solid piece of plastic.

We did recently have someone negligently shoot their self in the leg while reholstering during qualifications. It turned out to be a matter of leaving the finger on the trigger and trying to stuff the pistol back into the holster. Bang. Luckily not a crippling wound. It did blast some goo onto the gravel.
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Old September 1, 2011, 10:37 PM   #8
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real shame. it's too easy to become complacent with safety and seeing these stories are a good reminder. The first step to being part of a ND is to think it can never happen to you.
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Old September 2, 2011, 10:09 AM   #9
Glenn E. Meyer
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Not uncommon. The human factor / training books are full of such.

Somebody will get accidentally disintegrated when we carry ray guns in the future. Just a risk of human foilbles - sadly.
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Old September 2, 2011, 11:07 AM   #10
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+ 1 "not using real guns for ANY FOF training, no matter how many times they are checked to make sure they are empty."

Duty guns and training guns should not be mixed for those types of things.

Training at the line with your duty gun and live ammo is different.

But doing other training exercises should be done with dummy guns or inert firearms.

+1 on restricing live ammo completely from those locations and making sure that there is no live ammo brought into the area.

The live firing on the range should be done in a separate location from the training that involves training with blanks.
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Old September 2, 2011, 11:19 AM   #11
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"Stuff Happens: Just make sure it does not happento YOU."

There are Blue Guns, and Blue Barrels for real guns ...... Air Soft for Force On Force....... no reason this guy had to die.
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Old September 2, 2011, 06:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
We use dummy guns for ALL of our weapons retention and force on force training. No exceptions at all.
Good job jhenry!

That is the ONLY way I train at home or gym.

Then I go to the range for live fire.

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Old September 2, 2011, 07:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
real shame. it's too easy to become complacent with safety and seeing these stories are a good reminder. The first step to being part of a ND is to think it can never happen to you.
Took the words out of my mou……..Keyboard (and signature)
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Old September 2, 2011, 11:30 PM   #14
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They still have not officially released any more information, but on the news they stated that she was accidently shot by the Instructor.

I am not sure if any of you folks in Georgia remember, but just a few years ago another young female police recruit was shot and killed by an Instructor.
Here’s a link to that case: http://www.policeone.com/training/ar...ecruits-death/
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Old September 2, 2011, 11:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
no reason this guy had to die.
Not a guy according to the accounts that I read.

Also, where did y'all read that it was a FOF training accident?

None of the articles that I have read conveyed that fact.
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Old September 2, 2011, 11:55 PM   #16
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live rounds, "kill houses" & training aids...

To me, in 2011 most professional ranges, LE agencies(large & small) and well run private security/PSC schools can use training devices or simulated weapons(ASP, Simmution, FATS, etc).
The safety & well being of the students/cadets or sworn LE agents should be the main concern.
A few and I mean less than handful of high speed SWAT or spec ops units could make a valid point for live fire drills but new/entry level staff DO NOT fall into that catagory.
Former US Navy SEAL officer & counter-terrorism expert Richard Marcinko wrote about a AD/training accident when a joint training op with SEALs & some D-Boys(US Army SFOD-Delta). A Delta Force trooper drill Marcinko up through his torso and out his neck with 1 230gr .45acp round.
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Old September 3, 2011, 12:27 AM   #17
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at school we had to point guns at each other due to "not enough room in the class".

in my CCW class it was illegal to have any live ammo in the class, so everyone was given one opportunity to bring any ammo of any kind out to their car and/or out of the classroom.
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Old September 3, 2011, 12:49 AM   #18
TylerD45ACP
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Poor guy though this could have been easily avoided. FIREARM SAFTEY cannot be stressed enough honestly.

1. Dont point the pistol at anything you dont want to destroy
2. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are going to shoot
There are also many other saftey measures but these are the two most important, imo. What is so hard to understand about these two.
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Old September 3, 2011, 07:24 AM   #19
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As a pastor, I often use the phrase: "People, . . . caught in the act of being people".

They are, by and large, mistake prone, often disinterested or easily distracted, and in many cases, . . . so famiar with the scenario/drill, that the "safety edge" is dulled.

After 60 or so years of proudly stating that I had NEVER had an AD or an ND, . . . there is a hole in the living room floor, . . . it only took one infinitesimally small lapse of continuous thought, . . .

These events happen the same way. Those of you who use blue guns or similar tools, . . . keep it up, . . . I enjoyed and appreciated reading about that.

May God bless,
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Old September 3, 2011, 03:05 PM   #20
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What's with all this talk of "Accidental"?

Anywhere else on these forums, when some one gets shot, or carelessly discharges a firearm, it is immediately labeled correctly: NEGLIGENT discharge.

Accidental... You guys are losing your focus.
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Old September 3, 2011, 08:14 PM   #21
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As Deaf Smith stated, a common denominator in shooting accidents during tactical training involves an instructor loading up to leave the training facility, then forgetting to unload upon returning. It's inexcusable. First, someone should have checked weapons at the resumption of training. Second, in many academies, they no longer use any firearms capable of firing live ammunition whenever others are playacting the bad guys. Entry exercises with stationary targets is usually a live fire exercise. Decision/reaction training against fellow officers should only be done with training guns, never duty guns.
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Old September 3, 2011, 09:41 PM   #22
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Our training is as follows - retention and other training uses a red plastic training gun.
Function training prior to range use -live firearms with training ammunition in the classroom, (no personal firearms/ammunition allowed on complex, much less in the class room), brass cases with bright orange plastic "bullets". Instructors watch you load and unload magazines with the orange ammo they give you.
Live fire - ammo is handed to you at the range, 56 rounds, load three mags and keep six in your pocket, that's all you get for this year! Sidearm is UNLOADED off the line, only rangemasters have loaded sidearms.
BTW, you lose track of a round, we WILL spend ALL day looking for it.
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Old September 3, 2011, 09:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Second, in many academies, they no longer use any firearms capable of firing live ammunition whenever others are playacting the bad guys.
And to me that is the ONLY way to train in FOF federali.

These 'Red' or 'Blue' guns do fine. Or you can order an all aluminium look-alike (I have one that mimics my Glock 26 and another that mimics my J .38s.) These aluminium guns are made for holster makers but you can order them, as I have done,over the Internet.

They are great for practising drawing, pivots, 'stepping off the x', weak hand draws, etc.. all from concealment and at full speed. If they fall, no biggie. If you touch the trigger (still a no-no), it is no biggie.

I do this in the office here at home while my wife watches HGTV! As a result I'm quite good with either left or right hand and it shows when I go to the range.

I very strongly recommend dummy guns for alot of your gunhandling skills.

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Old September 3, 2011, 11:40 PM   #24
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Quote:
Anywhere else on these forums, when some one gets shot, or carelessly discharges a firearm, it is immediately labeled correctly: NEGLIGENT discharge.

Accidental... You guys are losing your focus.
I wanted to mention that but I didn't think that being such a noob here, it was my place to do so. Thanks for mentioning.
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Old September 3, 2011, 11:44 PM   #25
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you are correct, but the incident was ruled an accident(for legal purposes anyways)...that's why he isn't being charged + he fired the weapon on purpose
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