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Old September 1, 2011, 01:31 AM   #1
JustThisGuy
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Bravo BATFE!

Now THIS is what the BATFE should be doing every day in as many cities as possible.

Dozens Arrested in ATF Sting in Ohio:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/31...est=latestnews

Quote:
"Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents worked undercover for a year at what appeared to be a sporting goods store in Mansfield, Ohio. They acted as though they were interested in purchasing guns and drugs from various individuals."
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Old September 1, 2011, 02:43 AM   #2
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I don't understand why the ATF was involved. If this was primarily a drug sting then why are they there instead of local police or DEA? If it was a gun sting are they just looking for sellers who are illegally in possession of guns (e.g, along with drugs and/or felons/parolees)? Is it illegal in OH for individuals to sell guns person to person without an FFL? Or is it "bad guys with guns" they are looking at?
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Old September 1, 2011, 04:01 AM   #3
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The standard proceedure for a gov't agency ,after being embarassed or criticized , is to conduct a high profile operation to counteract the problem ! This is exactly what happened with WACO TX !!

Drug dealing always involves guns so it's easy for the ATF to get involved and get good publicity. Getting 'bravos' from the public is exactly what they want ,so you forget their gun sales to the Mexican drug dealers !
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Old September 1, 2011, 04:21 AM   #4
natman
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Is it illegal in OH for individuals to sell guns person to person without an FFL?
No but it is illegal for someone to be "engaged in the business" of selling guns without an FFL. Sounds like this operation may have fallen under that umbrella.
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Old September 1, 2011, 06:03 AM   #5
shortwave
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^^+1^^

The small amount of various drugs seized versus the amount of suspects arrested, I'd say guns were at the forefront of the investigation.

Course with the investigation still pending, kinda early to say what else will develope on the dope scene...but I'd think if ATF suspicioned they could get more drugs or some major drug dealers, they would have waited to make the bust getting all the drugs and the heavy weights.

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Old September 1, 2011, 06:46 AM   #6
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75 ounces of cocaine and crack are not a small amount.
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Old September 1, 2011, 07:24 AM   #7
Bartholomew Roberts
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70 firearms off the streets. Now all ATF needs is 15 more year long operations just like this one they'll be almost half way to equalling the 2,000+ firearms that went missing during Fast and Furious. Assuming of course, that no other ATF offices were following a "Fast and Furious" strategy.
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Old September 1, 2011, 07:30 AM   #8
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The drugs are one thing, bravo for the drugs but when drugs AND guns are involved I thought this typically involved the DEA? Just like that case years and years ago where someone offered to sell those DEA agents SAM's and a suitcase nuke right after the fall of the iron curtain? and wasnt it the DEA the lead agency involved with that whole Viktor Bout thing too? Don't flame me for what I am about to say, but watching that "DEA" show that was on SPIKE tv a lot of the time the investigations seemed to be both drugs and guns.


In regards to the weapons, I will reserve judgment until the facts come out. It this a case where individuals perhaps strayed into the ambiguous "engaged in the business" or were these criminals illegally selling firearms.

Hell last time I was in Ohio I went to a yearly flea market type thing about an hour outside of Cleveland. One guy who was NOT an FFL had two shotguns and a Chinese SKS copy for sale in his booth. Was HE "engaged in the business" ?

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Old September 1, 2011, 09:37 AM   #9
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http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-news/ci_18787924

The New Deal gun shop was allegedly selling to straw purchasers who were allegedly supplying a cartel in Mexico. A crying shame, if it's true.

But, as mentioned before, a pittance compared to what was allowed to "walk".
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Old September 1, 2011, 10:36 AM   #10
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Waste of time

I would imagine this operation was quite a let down and they are putting their best face on it.

The amount of guns and drugs is small time compared to the resources and time put in and the number of arrests made.

When a LEA is proud of a bust or sting they lists the drug amounts seized in kilos not grams. For reference; 1000 grams to a kilo and 454 grams to a pound.

Taking a few pounds of cocaine, less than 2 pounds of crack, some pills and 70 guns and 100's of rounds of ammo - wow! Hundreds of rounds - off the street after spending a year+ putting agents undercover would be a net loss in my book.

I would be curious to know if the guns were seized because they were illegal to own based on the gun itself or because they were part of all evidence seized.

This would have been pretty good had it been just one person but average out the ATF's haul over 64 people and it amounts to spitting into the ocean against the wind.
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Old September 1, 2011, 12:27 PM   #11
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75 ounces of cocaine and crack are not a small amount
1316 grams of cocaine plus 768 grams of crack ='s 2 kilo's, 48grams of total powder.

Hardly enough to remotely consider that this is some kind of big dope ring.
Small time low-lifes deal in that kind of weight....

...Unless ATF blew the timing on this one and didn't get the 'motherload' of dope.

Dope busts with these amounts of drugs by local LE don't even make the paper around here.

With a years investigation and hard telling the amount of man hrs., this bust, unless its tied to something much larger, surely won't go down in the record books. However, as small as the bust was, I'm glad they got the guns and drugs off the street.

Quote:
When a LEA is proud of a bust or sting they lists the drug amount seized in kilos not grams.
Correct, unless the amount seized is this small, then they list it in a way that makes it sound larger to the public.
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Old September 1, 2011, 12:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
JustThisGuy
Bravo BATFE!
Now THIS is what the BATFE should be doing every day in as many cities as possible.

Dozens Arrested in ATF Sting in Ohio:

They done good but it isn't a real high profile newsworthy item. I'm guessing that the ATF is trying to get as much positive press as possible. Hopefully with the recent change at the top, their real crime-fighting efforts increase and they focus on the bigger fish.
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Old September 1, 2011, 12:35 PM   #13
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thallub
75 ounces of cocaine and crack are not a small amount.
That amount is what the local low-level street dealer trades in. It's not a large amount by anyone's measure.
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Old September 1, 2011, 12:59 PM   #14
Crosshair
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Quote:
75 ounces of cocaine and crack are not a small amount.
As other have pointed out, it most certainly is an extremely small amount. The DEA routinely makes cocaine seizures measured in tons, yet it has little to no effect on price or supply.
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Old September 1, 2011, 05:38 PM   #15
tyme
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Now THIS is what the BATFE should be doing every day in as many cities as possible.
Or the government could legalize drugs, reduce the perceived need for drug dealers and associates to have guns to protect their trade (since the laws won't), and this becomes a non-event.

I'm not impressed. Maybe a few of those 64 alleged suspects represent a genuine threat to society. Maybe they don't. Maybe some of them just wanted some recreational drugs. What's almost certain is that the government has now destroyed some families, while the truly dangerous (if any) among the suspects may be able to manage to plead to lesser charges and only get a few years.

I don't see, in the few brief articles about this, any mention of whether any of these 64 individuals are being charged with a violent crime, or conspiracy to commit a violent crime.

With the justice system in its current state, I'm almost in favor of leaving ostensibly non-violent criminals out of prison if they're going to get less than 10-20 years, since you can bet once these people have a few years in a federal prison, they will emerge with little to no hope of reintegrating with society, and a lot more knowledge of criminal enterprise, courtesy of their fellow inmates.

I don't care one bit about the drugs. It's the guns in connection with the drug operation that concerns me. However, a few hundred rounds for 70 guns indicates that most of those guns were not in a state to be used when they were confiscated. As for "getting guns off the street", demand for guns by violent criminals is inelastic. This is going to accomplish next to nothing. Violent criminals are going to get their guns, but somewhere else, if in fact any of these 64 people were supplying guns directly to violent criminal actors to begin with.

Now I'm sure someone will or could trot out the canard that maybe this will reduce Cleveland-area criminal homicides by a few people. Of course I'm all for reducing homicides, but there are some problems that overshadow a possible reduction. First, a theory like that is utterly unprovable to any reasonable certainty; even if homicides go down this year and next, the connection is unprovable. Second, you can also reduce criminal homicides by violating the 1st, 4th, and 5th amendments. Reducing criminal homicides always sounds good, but if the means is criminalization of various inaninmate objects and substances, to wit drugs and guns, that are somewhat removed from any identifiable instance of major malum in se crime, then I'm sorry, but I'm not in favor. And if there is a clear nexus with violent criminal enterprise, that's what these people should have been arrested for.

The drugs? Pure luck back in June netted Cleveland OH police more drugs than this year-long BATFE investigation.

http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-clevela...,2265331.story

Similarly, the criminal element would not have a very hard time replacing ~70 black market guns.

So, not impressed.
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Old September 1, 2011, 05:46 PM   #16
KyJim
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That amount is what the local low-level street dealer trades in. It's not a large amount by anyone's measure.
No, street level dealers trade in MUCH smaller amounts. Possession by a street level dealer of more than a few ounces is very unusual.

That's not to say 75 ounces is a large amount. I too believe this is a better use of ATF agents than what we usually hear about.
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Old September 1, 2011, 05:50 PM   #17
tyme
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I agree, just for the record. I agree this is a better use of ATF resources than what we usually hear about: harassing legitimate gun dealers, and conspiracy to murder people (Waco, Fast&Furious). However, I still do not think "successes" like this minor gun & drug bust justify the existence of the agency.
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Old September 1, 2011, 10:48 PM   #18
Onward Allusion
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No, street level dealers trade in MUCH smaller amounts. Possession by a street level dealer of more than a few ounces is very unusual.
Not the runners (guys on the street, hand-to-hand guy), I'm referring to the guy who supplies the runners.
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Old September 2, 2011, 01:32 AM   #19
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I'm guessing quite a few those 64 people were abusing tobacco.
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Old September 2, 2011, 06:48 AM   #20
Bartholomew Roberts
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I know that not too long ago some Ellis County deputies seized a kilo of cocaine during a traffic stop. It got one paragraph in the paper of record at the county seat. ATF accomplishes something similar over a year long investigation and it is national news. Just looks like a desperate attempt for good PR more than anything else.
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Old September 2, 2011, 09:52 AM   #21
shortwave
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I'm guessing quite a few of those 64 were abusing tobacco
...and were probably released before this story broke.
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Old September 2, 2011, 09:58 AM   #22
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Just looks like a desperate attempt for good PR more than anything else.
+1
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Old September 2, 2011, 10:39 AM   #23
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Now THIS is what the BATFE should be doing every day in as many cities as possible.
Wrong. This utterly corrupt, incompetent, discredited and dangerous agency should be consigned to the dustbin of history, and its employees forced to find honest work, the sooner the better. Its continued existence is an imminent threat to the civil liberties of every American.

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Old September 2, 2011, 12:50 PM   #24
mete
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...rious-scandal/

Here's more that the ATF wants to distract you from !!!
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Old September 2, 2011, 06:38 PM   #25
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@ mete: That is EXACTLY what they want to distract you from.

This reminds me of the bad old days, the Janet Reno AG days.
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