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Old August 30, 2011, 05:13 PM   #1
Nordeste
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What matters is shot placement. Actual bank robbery shooting.

Actual shooting happened a few years ago in Petrer (Alicante), Spain:

http://www.dalealplay.com/informacio...php?con=140260

Long story made short. A bank robbery takes place and customers are held hostage by the robbers. Police arrive on scene and robbers exchange fire with the police. One of the robbers is hit in the chest and hip, KO but survives his injuries. A cop takes three hits from this robber, one jaw hit, forearm and one leg. Survives his injuries too.

The guy that runs is the other robber. He falls down due to the slippery pavement and tries to shoot at the cops chasing him on foot (his gun was a .45, probably a 1911 type) but when trying to do so, gets two torso hits and another one in the right wrist. Ammunition used by the cops (Petrer Local Police, although National Police guys were also present) was 115 gr FMJ 9mm. One of the hits (the deadly one) was very close to the BG's heart. Look at how quickly he falls down after getting hit. The BG was pronounced dead on scene.

Apart from the shooting, it is really scary how close to the bullets in the air the dark VW Golf was. It is a practice car from a driving school, and I don't know, really can't understand how you can see a guy on the run holding a pistol towards the cops and still try to get across instead of backing off.

After this incident, the Municipality of Petrer got rid of their FMJ ammunition and started using JHP. I guess that at local level, politicians are easier to convince than at national level, because, although we have complained, we are still being issued FMJ or semi-jacketed soft points in the two national level LEAs instead of proper law-enforcement ammo. This stupid policy has to do with their thought that hollow points cause more damage, therefore, it's against human rights. The BG's rights, of course, who cares about law abiding citizens ones or cops'.

Lesson learned... Despite using the least appropiate type of ammo (FMJ) in a low-weight variety (115gr) and a caliber despised for allegedly lacking stopping power (9mm), a torso hit close enough to the heart will bring a BG down quite quickly.
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Old August 30, 2011, 06:17 PM   #2
TylerD45ACP
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To me that just reaffirms that the 9mm ball can perform but you need to place your rounds and may need an extra 1-2. People say the 9mm is weak but it is NO JOKE. It was the first 'big bore'(its in the SD class so lets call it one) caliber of .355 that could hold alot of ammo. The 45ACP will always be my 1st choice but the 9mm is my only other Semi Caliber.
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Old August 30, 2011, 07:30 PM   #3
Double Naught Spy
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Shot placement is meaningless without trajectory and penetration to the appropriate vital organs to cause sufficient damage. The bad guy could have shot all the cops in the center of the chest, but because they were wearing vests would have gotten zero penetration.
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Old August 30, 2011, 07:48 PM   #4
GM1967
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Quote:
What matters is shot placement
If what matters is shot placement, you rely a .22 or a .25, right? Because, why would you ever need anything more, if shot placement is all that matters?

We keep hearing this tired line from 9mm fans, who use it to champion their favorite caliber against more powerful ones, like .40, .45, and .357. Yet they don't put their money where their words are, and use mousegun calibers, because they know in their hearts that in reality shot placement isn't the only thing that matters -- penetration, stopping power, bullet design, weight, and diameter all matter too. All these factors go together, along with the qualities of the target, to determine the outcome.

As for shot placement -- you can't aim at an artery, which is often a factor in bringing a target down. You can't see the artery, and even if you could, you couldn't hit it. A heart shot is pretty much just hitting center of center of mass, which is just what we should all be trying to do anyway. So, given that we are already trying to hit center of mass....power matters.
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Old August 30, 2011, 08:29 PM   #5
Nnobby45
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Lesson learned... Despite using the least appropiate type of ammo (FMJ) in a low-weight variety (115gr) and a caliber despised for allegedly lacking stopping power (9mm), a torso hit close enough to the heart will bring a BG down quite quickly.
The caliber "despised for allegedly lacking stopping power" isn't so despised when effective ammo using better technology is used. Translation: Don't blame the caliber. Blame the ammo mandated by horses' fanny bureaucrats.

Every one knows that shot placement is the key factor. There isn't any argument in that regard, and it gets repeated with great regularity on every thread that talks about "stopping power" issues. But ammo choice is important, also. An assailant can fail to go down even when fatally shot with ball ammo. Less likely to happen with reliable HP's.
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Old August 30, 2011, 08:33 PM   #6
Nnobby45
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Shot placement is meaningless without trajectory and penetration to the appropriate vital organs to cause sufficient damage. The bad guy could have shot all the cops in the center of the chest, but because they were wearing vests would have gotten zero penetration.
I agree.

And yet there are those "shot placement is all that matters" advocates who will look you right in the eye, without a wink or a smile, and tell you with a straight face, that a shot to the chest with hardball that expands not at all, is just as good as a hit using a hollow point that expands to 70 to 90 caliber and penetrates 14 inches.

Seems their definition of "hitting in the right place" has much narrower parameters than for more effective HP's.
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Old August 30, 2011, 08:37 PM   #7
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Hey, hey... first of all, it's not my intention to start a flaming thread here or despise any other calibers. Much the opposite, I just wanted to show how an ammo and caliber that might seem inappropiate, can do the job perfectly well. When watching the video, I counted two shots when the bad guy went down. I have no doubt that .40 or .45 are more powerful.

GM1967, there is a recent thread about a clerk shot twice with a .22 who died as a result, and a bad guy who took several (seven?) .45 hits and survived, yet I wouldn't feel comfortable carrying a .22. My thought is that a 9 should be the smallest thing to carry for self defense, provided that you use proper ammo, but see how even that 9 in FMJ took this guy down real quick. In fact, I agree with all you said, and this was just my way to show that I disagree with those that say that a 9 "won't stop anything".
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Old August 30, 2011, 09:04 PM   #8
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The 9mm is the high capacity SD gun with good capability. The 40 S&W is the middle capacity SD gun with a better capability(Some loads rival 45's). The 45 is the lowest capacity with the best capability in my eyes. Ask me any day I will take a 45ACP over anything. However my next choice is 9mm because my 45 can do what the 40 can. I like the 9mm capacity and believe it is more than capable.
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Old August 30, 2011, 10:01 PM   #9
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1) FMJ ammo can kill and if hit dead on it can stop an opponent right in their tracks.

2) When you are moving, shooting, and being shot at, you will fine perfect placement hard to accomplish.

Therefore you should use the best ammo you can get and practice (I mean combat shooting, not target practice) as much as you can.

If you do the above and are lucky then maybe you will shoot well even while your hair is standing strait up!

And I will say that if I had a choice of FMJ ammo and lots of practice or fancy JHPs and little practice, I'd go the FMJ route.

Skill and nerve is what matters, and nerve matters most.

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Old August 31, 2011, 06:54 AM   #10
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Bullet profile is a BIG factor in FMJ effectiveness. From the beginning, the 9mm had a more pointed profile while the 45 had a flatter round nose profile. Even a nonexpanding 9mm HP will provide a flatter meplat which will transfer more energy and damage more tissue than the typical FMJ.
I carry a 9mm mostly because I have hand strength issues but also because my Father survived WW2 packing a HiPower 9mm lifted from a German. He could have carried a 45 but found the 13 rounds of 9mm were preferrable. I don't know the exact circumstances but if he thought it was adequate, I won't argue with his choice.
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Old August 31, 2011, 12:06 PM   #11
TylerD45ACP
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If I couldnt have a 1911 45ACP, a BHP 9mm would be my second choice. Not just back then but today as well.
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Old August 31, 2011, 12:19 PM   #12
secret_agent_man
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The "lesson" here, if there is one, is a 12 ga shotgun can't be beat.

I don't often shoot anyone, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.



Stay armed, my friends.

Last edited by secret_agent_man; August 31, 2011 at 12:38 PM.
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Old August 31, 2011, 01:03 PM   #13
TylerD45ACP
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LMAO...I don't often shoot anyone, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis. Me too, I got the new brand Dos Equis 45. Cool pic of the 2 Hulls flying out of the shotgun. I love those self ejecting double barrels they are so cool. I rather have a Rifle if I could but at closer ranges the 12Gauge cant be beat.
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Old August 31, 2011, 02:10 PM   #14
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We keep hearing this tired line from 9mm fans, who use it to champion their favorite caliber against more powerful ones, like .40, .45, and .357. Yet they don't put their money where their words are, and use mousegun calibers, because they know in their hearts that in reality shot placement isn't the only thing that matters -- penetration, stopping power, bullet design, weight, and diameter all matter too. All these factors go together, along with the qualities of the target, to determine the outcome.
Shot placement is what matters once you have a cartridge that can reach the vitals even through appendages. I would bet my life savings that you would not be able to tell the difference between the 38caliber 9mm or the 45caliber 45acp that just entered between your nipples. Once a minimum power factor is achieved shot placement is key. A hit from the mighty 45acp to the abdomen vs. a hit from the lowly 9mm to the heart, guess what 9mm wins.

BTW I'm not a 9mm champion. I shoot both 9mm and 45acp. Carry the Glock 30 for CC.
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Old August 31, 2011, 02:13 PM   #15
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^+1
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Old August 31, 2011, 04:09 PM   #16
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If what matters is shot placement, you rely a .22
Actually, in real life, I have killed more with a 22 than any other round with the exception of my shotgun on wild birds. I killed critters way more scary than most folks ever will be with a 22. The round is designed for deep penetration and high speed.

I prefer a 45 but in a pinch my ruger will do fine.
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Old August 31, 2011, 04:24 PM   #17
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The round is designed for deep penetration and high speed.
You have got to show me where you got this bit of information.
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Old August 31, 2011, 04:43 PM   #18
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The round penetrates because it has good velocity and a tiny diameter. I wouldn't say it has "good" penetration either. I witnessed a deer (yes I know the law) get harvested with a ruger 10/22 rifle. First shot hit high behind the front legs and into the spine. Second shot hit the neck and finished the buck. Neither exited. The upper neck on this tiny 140 pound Florida deer was maybe 5 inches across (a big maybe).
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Old August 31, 2011, 04:58 PM   #19
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I don't often shoot anyone, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.



Stay armed, my friends.
Plus one.
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Old September 2, 2011, 02:40 PM   #20
markj
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You have got to show me where you got this bit of information
Internet search shows nothing but I did read a book about the 22, the short was the first cased round made, the lr came later and gave the penetration needed to be a killing round many guns were made with 22lr. It was a common carry round before the media brain washed everyone into thinking only a cannon will do the job.

Like I said, I killed more critters were a lot scarier than any man I ever met all with a 22. Dropped 2000 lb animals right there one shot, now I am not saying a 45 wouldnt have done the trick but when meat is involed best not to waste much.

Would I consider a 22 for self defense? heck yeah, pin point accuracy and little noise, light recoil and fast back on target, sure would.
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Old September 2, 2011, 02:58 PM   #21
Frank Ettin
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There are four ways in which shooting an assailant stops a fight:
  1. psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."

  2. massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function

  3. breaking major skeletal support structures

  4. damaging the central nervous system.

Depending on someone just giving up because he's been shot is iffy. Probably most fights are stopped that way, but some aren't.

Breaking major skeletal structures can quickly impair mobility, but someone with a gun can still shoot.

Hits to the central nervous system are sure and quick, but the CNS presents a small and uncertain target.

The most common and sure physiological way in which shooting someone stops him is blood loss -- depriving the brain and muscles of oxygen and nutrients, thus impairing the ability of the brain and muscles to function. Blood loss is facilitated by (1) large holes causing tissue damage; (2) getting the holes in the right places to damage major blood vessels or blood bearing organs; and (3) adequate penetration to get those holes into the blood vessels and organs which are fairly deep in the body. The problem is that blood loss takes time. People have continued to fight effectively when gravely, even mortally, wounded. So things that can speed up blood loss, more holes, bigger holes, better placed holes, etc., help.

So as a rule of thumb --
  • More holes are better than fewer holes.
  • Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
  • Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  • Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  • There are no magic bullets.

Because they tend to make bigger holes, and the modern ones are likely to penetrate sufficiently, I'll choose JHPs.
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Old September 2, 2011, 03:49 PM   #22
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What fiddletown said times two

Quote:
It was a common carry round before the media brain washed everyone into thinking only a cannon will do the job.

Read what Fiddletown said. If that doesn't allow you to understand why the 22lr is the worst defensive caliber choice available then stop debating because nothing will change on either side.

The media didn't brainwash me and I guarantee it didn't brainwash Fiddle. It really isn't rocket science to get it. A 45 caliber 12 inch deep wound is better than a 22 caliber 10 inch wound. A 45 cal 230 grain bullet at 950 feet per second will smash a blocking bone and continue to dig deeper into the body than a 22 caliber 40 grain bullet at 1300 fps will.

Its a simple as that.
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Old September 2, 2011, 05:57 PM   #23
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Internet search shows nothing but I did read a book about the 22, the short was the first cased round made, the lr came later and gave the penetration needed to be a killing round many guns were made with 22lr.
Great, then I see you have confused the difference between results and design. So you have no information to support your claim that the .22 was actually designed to penetrate deeply and have high velocity? You have assumed that sense the .22 penetrated well that it was somehow designed different than other ammo in regard to how it would perform. I really didn't expect you to be able to produce any actual results for this and am not surprised that you failed to do so. However, if you are going to base your belief in design intent on the results of the product produced, then I believe you will find that the .22 wasn't any different than other calibers at the time. In fact, the first rimfire .22s were NOT designed for high velocity and deep penetration. The first .22s were designed as plinking target rounds for shooting galleries in 1845. With maybe 20 ft lbs of energy, it wasn't going to do much in the way of penetrating deeply. Sorry.

Quote:
Like I said, I killed more critters were a lot scarier than any man I ever met all with a 22. Dropped 2000 lb animals right there one shot, now I am not saying a 45 wouldnt have done the trick but when meat is involed best not to waste much.
Executing animals for consumption isn't the same thing as defensive use of a caliber. There are plenty of folks that put down 2000 lb cattle with little air guns but that does not make air guns great for defensive use.
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Old September 4, 2011, 10:03 AM   #24
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Critters don't have HiPoints in your face and shoot at you until their gun jams or they lose consciousness either.
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Old September 6, 2011, 03:25 PM   #25
markj
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Read what Fiddletown said. If that doesn't allow you to understand why the 22lr is the worst defensive caliber choice available then stop debating because nothing will change on either side.
I never said it was the best, but if it was all I had Iwould not hesitqate to use it.

Quote:
Executing animals for consumption isn't the same thing as defensive use of a caliber
On my trap line a 22 is all I ever take. I dont just kill cows dudes. I hunt, everything I can. In the 60s Ikilled a deer with my 22. Inuit indians kill polar bears with a 22, go check it out for yourself.

The 22 short is what you are thinking about, the lr was introduced to give the round power. Wish I could find that old book told the story of most calibers of that time (the 50s and 60s).

Them riverboat gamblers carried multi shot 22s for the cartridges guns.

Like I said themedia has brain washed most folks, Americans need bigger than anyone else.

Like I said, if a 22 was all I had Iwould not run and hide, I would use the durn thing effectivly. I know how to shoot the thing.
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