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Old August 31, 2011, 09:06 AM   #1
zukiphile
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A US citizen taking a gun to Canada

If I am a US citizen taking my legally owned firearm into Canada, am I breaking any US law? I am not concerned with re-introducing it to the US, but with compliance with US law in leaving.

Zuk, did you ask at BATF?

That would be a good first step if my regular, friendly BATF contact hadn't left and been replaced by someone not helpful.

Any wisdom, especially in the form of a US Code or fedreg section, will be appreciated.
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Old August 31, 2011, 09:08 AM   #2
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I would think Canada law is a bigger problem. A lot of hoops to jump. Don't even think about pistols.
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Old August 31, 2011, 09:28 AM   #3
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Handgun or long gun? BIG difference.
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Old August 31, 2011, 09:54 AM   #4
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A big difference in US law? If so, what? Thanks.
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Old August 31, 2011, 10:10 AM   #5
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I just helped someone out with this at work. He was doing a hunting trip and had to file a Non-Resident Firearm declaration form with Royal Canadian Mounted Police

This should help forms are in PDF format and there are some fact sheets as well.

Canadian Border Services might have some answers for you as well, eh?
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Old August 31, 2011, 10:40 AM   #6
zukiphile
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I do appreciate the attempts, and think my question may not have been clearly stated.

Is it a matter of US regulation for a US citizen to take his legally possessed firearm to Canada? Thanks.
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Old August 31, 2011, 10:47 AM   #7
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Leaving the country is a moot point. Its complying with the counrty your trying to enter with the firearms that matters.
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Old August 31, 2011, 10:57 AM   #8
zukiphile
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Leaving the country isn't a moot point if what you leave it with subjects you to criminal prosecution when you get back.

Is it a matter of US regulation for a US citizen to take his legally possessed firearm to Canada?
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Old August 31, 2011, 11:32 AM   #9
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Being a US citizen, presumably, you should have no issues provided that you declare it.

Another page - check the sections under Crossing the border

Homeland Security's take is here under firearms

In short, it appears that you need to register them with a CBP Form-4457 in oder to prove that they are the same firearms you left with.
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Old August 31, 2011, 11:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Leaving the country isn't a moot point if what you leave it with subjects you to criminal prosecution when you get back.

Is it a matter of US regulation for a US citizen to take his legally possessed firearm to Canada?
Your question makes no sense. If you own the firearm legally and you fill out the paperwork to bring it into Canada you can bring it back. If you don't bring it back people will get upset and wonder what you did with it. Why would you think bringing your gun back will be a problem. What regulation are you talking about?
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Old August 31, 2011, 11:34 AM   #11
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To bring your long gun back into the US, you'll need some proof of ownership. That would be a receipt, bill of sale or the like. If you don't have that, you can register the gun with Customs prior to your trip. They'll give you a form that you can present when you come back to the states. Customs highly recommends going the registration route - with that paper, there won't (shouldn't) be any question about the status of your ownership.

Your problem won't be with the ATF, it will be with Customs.
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Old August 31, 2011, 11:44 AM   #12
zukiphile
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This isn't meant to be in any way hostile, but by illustrating what the question isn't, maybe what the question is will be clearer.

Quote:
To bring your long gun back into the US...
My question pertains to US laws regulating taking a firearm out of the US, not back into it.

Quote:
Your question makes no sense. If you own the firearm legally and you fill out the paperwork to bring it into Canada you can bring it back.
One isn't free to ship certain sorts of industrial equipment or optics outside the US, at least without some paper work. For the purpose of this question let's assume compliance with all Canadian laws.

Is it a matter of US regulation for a US citizen to take his legally possessed firearm to Canada?
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Old August 31, 2011, 11:50 AM   #13
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So are you concerned you may violate ITAR regulations? That would include some U.S. regulations regarding firearms leaving the country.
Perhaps this may be of some use:
http://www.firearmslawgroup.com/publ...t-requirements
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Old August 31, 2011, 12:39 PM   #14
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Sorry Zuki, I totally misread your post.

Leaving with a gun isn't going to get you in trouble with the US. Unless, I suppose, you leave with it and come back without it.
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Old August 31, 2011, 12:57 PM   #15
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CowTowner, thanks for the ITAR regs.

Hardcase, no need to be sorry. You wouldn't think my question would be a problem, and the mind naturally jumps to the most likely and prominent obstacle in a fact pattern.

I wouldn't have thought to contemplate this unless I had been presented with the following pattern.

A man who travels between the the US and Canada and has places in both countries takes several firearms to Canada. He is subsequently served with a US criminal summons that alleges he transgressed federal law, but contains no specific citation.
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Old August 31, 2011, 02:28 PM   #16
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Is there some reason to avoid asking the agency which issued the summons?
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Old August 31, 2011, 04:57 PM   #17
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I ain't a lawyer, but I would think that any summons that fails to identify the specific law or laws alleged to have been violated is, on its face, defective. How can this hypothetical person offer a defense if he doesn't know what law(s) it is that he's alleged to have violated?

Heck, a traffic cop can't issue a speeding ticket without citing the applicable section of the motor vehicle code.
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Old August 31, 2011, 07:25 PM   #18
hermannr
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Don't go to Canada without the proper paperwork already in place...see here

http://www.panda.com/canadaguns/#att
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Old August 31, 2011, 07:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
A man who travels between the the US and Canada and has places in both countries takes several firearms to Canada. He is subsequently served with a US criminal summons that alleges he transgressed federal law, but contains no specific citation.
If "places" = homes located in both the U.S. & Canada, and legal occupancy in both countries;

and purchase of said firearms in the U.S. was in compliance with federal/state/local laws;

and if bringing the firearms into Canada complied with Canadian law;

and the firearms in question are legally owned/purchased by the traveler;

then the traveler needs to contact an attorney and the agency/agencies listed in the criminal summons, in that order.

Except for a few hinky exporting laws, I can't think of any reason why a U.S. law would have been broken. But even then, if it is an individual transporting the firearms from a place of legal status/residency in the U.S. to a place of legal status/residency in another country, then it doesn't pass the sniff test/definition of exporting. As long as it remains in the possession/ownership of the traveler, he/she has not exported anything...

Export -
1. to ship (commodities) to other countries or places for sale, exchange, etc.
2. to send or transmit (ideas, institutions, etc.) to another place, especially to another country.
3. Computers . to save (documents, data, etc.) in a format usable by another software program.
verb (used without object)
4. to ship commodities to another country for sale, exchange, etc.
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Old September 1, 2011, 07:35 AM   #20
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronbert
Is there some reason to avoid asking the agency which issued the summons?
The summons comes from a prosecutor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgcoastie
then the traveler needs to contact an attorney and the agency/agencies listed in the criminal summons, in that order.

Except for a few hinky exporting laws, I can't think of any reason why a U.S. law would have been broken.
Neither can the traveller's attorney. Traveller's counsel handles a fair volume of gun cases, but this was new to him so he asked me in a "Hey, have you ever heard about..." manner.

When I get more information on it I will update.
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Old September 1, 2011, 07:41 AM   #21
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Is there some reason to avoid asking the prosecutor who issued the summons?
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