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Old August 23, 2011, 07:36 PM   #26
horseman308
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I'm not hugely knowledgeable about handguns, but given the OP's question, my first thought is "the pistol with the fewest moving parts." The more moving parts, the more room for error and part failure. So, rather than an automatic, I'd go with something single shot, probably a muzzleloader. There are literally thousands of surviving flintlocks and caplock muzzleloaders from the 18th and 19th centuries that are still in working order.

Of course, there aren't many spare parts or people who know how to work on them (by comparison, of course) as there are for 1911's, M9's, and other repeating pistols. And they're pretty slow to reload, but they work.
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Old August 23, 2011, 07:41 PM   #27
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Revolver: Any Ruger.
Auto: P95 Ruger and M9.

BTW I'm a retired service member I came in with the .45 acp and went out with the 9mm and I'll take the M9 everytime, FWIW.
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Old August 23, 2011, 07:54 PM   #28
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While Boats' post is fact based it is not exactly a real world test. Who in any real life situation is going to throw 1k rounds through their glock and melt the guide rod? Who is going to throw 1k rounds down the tube of any handgun in real life? Likely no one.

As far as running without oil, I own a 1911, so I am not in any way against them. I love mine, but for most reliable pistol in the world I just cant state that. Mine DOES NOT run well dry. Mine likes to be well oiled, granted it is still relatively new and a very tight pistol. Once shot more and the tolerances grow that may change.

My vote for a Full size Glock still remains my vote.
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Old August 23, 2011, 08:37 PM   #29
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Gen 3 Glock 17 or 19. Pick one.
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Old August 23, 2011, 08:44 PM   #30
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My Father in Law has an old Colt military issue 1911 that has been around for many years. It looks like it has been through the wars, and it likely has. He sprays it down with WD 40 from time to time. I have offered to take it down and clean it properly or have it professionally done, but he says that is not necessary. Over several years and hundreds of rounds, I have never seen this gun fail with either hardball or HP ammo. If I had to pick a pistol to drag through the mud, snow, etc. with no service, this would be it.
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Old August 23, 2011, 09:02 PM   #31
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Just an old sailor's opinion, . . . but any of the 1911's we had in the Navy in the 60's would suffice.

I mean for crying out loud, . . . they survived us, . . . they gotta be tough.

I'm not going to live long enough to see it, . . . but give it another 30 years or so, . . . I'm just wondering when the polymer plastics will start breaking down. It's one of those dastardly little secrets that none of the manufacturers will own up to, . . . all, . . . ALL man made materials have a peaking point where they start to chemically break down, . . .

Steel doesn't do that.

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Old August 23, 2011, 09:04 PM   #32
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Glock models in 9mm, Beretta's M9/92fs, Ruger GP 100 and a few others, but you asked whats the MOST RUGGED HANDGUN, I really don't know.


One way to find out, buy those listed, buy 20k ammo for each, go play around in the dirt/sand and see which one stops firing first, using same testing results. :P
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Old August 23, 2011, 09:11 PM   #33
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Hmmm...

I would go with any of the USP based Hk's, although I've seen some Berettas take some serious abuse and the 92/M9 would be my second choice.

Regarding polymers "breaking down", Im sure they are UV stabilized and will be around for several generations. What percentage of steel pistols produced since 1900 are still around?
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Old August 23, 2011, 09:17 PM   #34
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While Boats' post is fact based it is not exactly a real world test.
LOL! What, pray tell, is more "real" than the real world?

Your personal 1911A1 is not as loosely built as a USGI one was spec'd out to be. You think the military didn't envision a lack of proper cleaning supplies for their small arms?

Besides, if you want to really talk about the real world, if 1000 rounds down range in under a quarter of an hour without new lube applied or any cleaning breaks isn't "real," then neither is staking durability and overall reliability claims on NOT NEEDING lube at all. A USGI 1911A1 could be cleaned in gasoline, diesel, kerosene, acetone, paint thinner, whatever solvent was at hand, it's not like it was going to melt. You could lube one with lard if you needed to.

"Modern" shooters seem to think that if you don't have CLP, dry film lube or some other wonder lube around that you don't have cleaning supplies and lube. Those USGI pistols could be cleaned in avgas and lubed with waste oil--and oftentimes were on remote islands all over the South Pacific.

Again, point out something more "real world" than having served with distinction for a country on a total war footing globally while performing at the end of some of the most distant (and iffy) logistical efforts yet seen.
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Old August 23, 2011, 09:24 PM   #35
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I'm not going to live long enough to see it, . . . but give it another 30 years or so, . . . I'm just wondering when the polymer plastics will start breaking down. It's one of those dastardly little secrets that none of the manufacturers will own up to, . . . all, . . . ALL man made materials have a peaking point where they start to chemically break down, . . .

Steel doesn't do that.
Dwight I'm in agreement with you on the military 1911, based on the requirements of the OP. With that said my plastic SR9c is my weapon of choice. With an occasional cleaning and minimal care I expect it will last far more than thirty years. Left in the mud the steel will go long before the polymer...
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Old August 23, 2011, 09:25 PM   #36
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I don't claim to be a military expert, and I wasn't around as an adult in the 1911 days of the military. But I have been told by several people that towards the end of its lifetime, many of those military 1911s were pieces of crap that jammed and broke all the time.

I like 1911s. I have owned many and still have a very nice one. But, the mention of them is like "magic" to some people. That's not always the case
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Old August 23, 2011, 09:43 PM   #37
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Agree

I would classify 1911s as nogstalgic. It seems like the world of personal defense has moved on to light weight, high capacity, small caliber, higher velocity, striker based side arms. They are cheaper and less labor intensive to produce. Time marches on.
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Old August 23, 2011, 09:53 PM   #38
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Shipwreck you are right on the money. My dad and many of my friends dads were WWII or korean war vets. Every one loved the M1 Garand, some loved the M1 carbine. My Dad prefered the Garand or a BAR.

Pretty much all of them were in agreement that the 45 was a hard kicking POS that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Now Keep in mind these were old well worn guns and its unlikely any of these men had more than a days training with the 1911. Add to that the poor sights that came on every 1911 except the Gold cup prior to the 1980s and the modern versions of the gun.

My dad could not understand why I bought a Colt commander to work UC in the 80s and was stunned when I showed him my qualification scores. But although both are colt 1911s they really aren't the same gun. Its almost like comparing a used 1950 cadillac to a new one.

Me, I think there are a lot of great guns out there and I carry a Glock by choice. But if I knew I could only have one gun that would last me a lifetime, I might have to go with the Colt Combat Elite or maybe a S&W 66. The Glock is everything I like in a pistol, but as previously posted no one really knows how long that polymer is going to hold up. They've only been around since the mid 80s and that goes for all polymer guns not just the Glock.
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Old August 23, 2011, 10:29 PM   #39
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If the 1911A1 is all about "nostalgia," (despite STILL serving at the tip of the spear in both civilian and military service), I would classify polymer pistols as consumerist driven garbage. In a world too cheap to any longer produce a machined steel pistol except for the remaining discerning buyers, of course its wannabe "postmodern" (read plastic zip gun) successors, filled to the gills with stampings and MIM, are built to meet a price point rather a combat reference standard.

Just look at how it went. The 1911A1 was "officially retired" in 1985. There are still rebuilt USGI 1911A1s in service today. The newest of these would have frames produced in 1945 and the oldest in service would date back to around 1924.

A Glock can't even go from Generations 1-4 without wholesale turn ins from cops and others. They simply don't have to build a service track record approaching the 1911A1s or the BHP's of yesteryear because they are built to be disposable and are treated as such by their end users. A straight or safety razor may be "nostalgic" to the shaver using a Bic, but that's just because he doesn't know what a "real" razor is all about. He's into being cheap and modern and all.

The case for polymer's longevity in service is built entirely upon baseless speculation because it certainly isn't built on being the sidearm workhorse continuously in service to an actual fighting force for decades.
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Old August 23, 2011, 10:46 PM   #40
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Quote:
Proven by whom?

Proven when?

Proven where?

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php...ask=view&id=90

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...-torture-test/

Here!
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Old August 23, 2011, 10:52 PM   #41
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I think the M9 must be up there - it passed the U.S. Military trials.
I don't base my ideas of quality on any opinion the government has, their track record sucks and they buy from the lowest bidder.

I choose Glock
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Old August 23, 2011, 11:01 PM   #42
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I was waiting for that sucker play filled with static shots and such.

Short duration rusting is cosmetic. Nothing that internet wonder did would permanently disable any decent service pistol. Nothing. Videos coming soon. Uh huh.

Drop it from a plane onto concrete and not a plowed field. Run over it with a truck doing 65 in a rutted asphalt highway, not at crawl on the driveway. Shoot it with a .308, not a .22lr RNL. Shoot it on the frame with that .22lr and not just on the slide. . . .

Sheesh comes to mind.

As to the second link, I guess that G17 makes up for this much newer one that didn't do nearly so much.

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Old August 23, 2011, 11:04 PM   #43
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I don't base my ideas of quality on any opinion the government has, their track record sucks and they buy from the lowest bidder.

I choose Glock
Your irony detector must be broken, because Glock's track record is hype inflated and being the lowest of the low bidders is precisely how it wound up getting dusted by so much confectioner's sugar and doughnut glaze.
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Old August 23, 2011, 11:12 PM   #44
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1911

Im not a military man but i am a gun guy lol and i say any one that likes the m9 overe a 1911, is obviosly just a confused indevidual lol. It does hold more bullets but lets just be ohnest if thies two guns went head to head at 30 yards im betting on that single stage triger and thoes fat .45 rounds.
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Old August 23, 2011, 11:28 PM   #45
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Hi everyone.

I read in a previous post about shooting 1000 rounds in one go. Well i have seen it done, helped and attempted. The only pistol that i have seen fire 1000 rounds consecutively, over a day with more than one shooter and lots of magazines is a cz 75. The serial number of the pistol, name of owner etc are all available.

On the 1911. Some of you might know that i tinker from time to time and have been known to build a pistol or two. I have a beater 1911 that is a constant source of entertainment. I detail strip, shoot, change parts and just go crazy.

This might sound crazy but i have deliberately put in extractors that have only about 1mm of "grabbing" area. Put in ejectors that should have been thrown away. Loose bushings, extremely weak recoil springs you name it but that gun keeps going and going. That gun has taught me a lot about how a pistol works. What a great design.

The most rugged pistols i know of are the cz75, Beretta 92 and 1911. This is through experience not information gathering.
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Old August 23, 2011, 11:43 PM   #46
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Sig P226 yet. It is a solid workhorse that has been in service with special operations troops, such as the US Army Special Forces and US Navy SEALs, since at least the 1990s. I trained with the P226 and several other handguns (M9, M1911A1, HK SOCOM .45, etc) we had in our arsenal back in my days with 1st SFG(A) and it was my favorite then and still is today.

I currently carry a 9mm Sig P226R on duty as a LEO, and have carried one version or another of the P226 for the last 15 years. In all that time, I have had zero problems with it and it has eaten all and any ammo I've fed it.

I recently attended an Advanced Pistol Handling course where we shot 1,800 rounds over 3 days. Other students in this class used high-end Kimber 1911's, Glocks of various calibers, and S&W M&P's and each and every one had malfunction or mechanical issues during this class. The guy with the Kimber(s) actually went through two (2) 1911's before borrowing a Glock. My Sig P226R performed flawlessly with zero mechanical issues or malfunctions, unless they were set up as part of the course of instruction.
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Old August 23, 2011, 11:50 PM   #47
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high-end Kimber 1911's
Oxymoron.

"Over-priced Kimber 1911-shaped objects."
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Old August 24, 2011, 12:10 AM   #48
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Sure the Glock broke, just like revolvers explode at the cylinders. All guns will have their problems.


So far the Glocks have held up, same goes for other "plastic guns"


The day my Glock's break will be the day I no longer carry plastic guns, I will switch to a revolver/1911/metal guns.


For some reason, I want to carry a 3 ~ 4 inch revolver now lol! esp in 44 magnum after seeing dirty hairy.

I think revolvers are classy. Might carry a 6 shooter some day with a back up "plastic gun"
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Old August 24, 2011, 01:43 AM   #49
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It's hard to which gun, if any, can truly be called the most rugged in the world. There's not really some objective way to measure "ruggedness" and even though I have (and have had) some handguns that I would doubtlessly consider rugged, I don't have any way to tell which of those I've had are more rugged than any of the others I've had, much less comparing to pistols that I've never had.

I would think though, the Makarov would rank pretty highly. It's a very simple, durable, reliable design, with low and easy maintenance, and it's composed of very few individual parts, so there's less to fail.
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Old August 24, 2011, 02:47 AM   #50
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I think this is coming down to differences in two main areas: 1) the design of a particular gun, and the 2) materials/construction of a gun. You can look at them independently to judge a gun, or you can view them together in a system. I think you have to do both.

This the semi-auto forum so that's what I'll stick to.

I think some designs lend themselves to more ruggedness. The H&K USP is one such design. Its simple and straightforward. Not a lot of parts, no complex linkages. Its a very rugged design.

When we talk strictly materials though we take into consideration polymer, aluminum, MIM, cast steel, and forged steel. Honestly I think steel is more rugged because of its strength. The big thing though with steel is its heavy and it rusts. Polymer and aluminum are light and require zero maintenance. In the end though, I think any polymer or aluminum pistol will have a slight disadvantage in ruggedness versus steel (one that will probably never noticed by any of us, but it still exists).

I think in this case the best summation of these in one gun is the 1911A1. If they made an all steel USP it might be a different story. The design of the 1911 I think is dated, but it works and the big factor is if you get a MIM-free all steel 1911 (stainless too maybe?) I can't think of a better candidate for "most rugged."
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