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Old August 28, 2011, 05:06 PM   #26
JerryM
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I have several different semi autos, and revolvers. In theory one gun would be advantageous, but I do not find the transition between my various guns or types a problem.
So I carry whichever my whim dictates.

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Old August 28, 2011, 06:22 PM   #27
threegun
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Quote:
In theory one gun would be advantageous, but I do not find the transition between my various guns or types a problem.
I'm sure those I listed had the same thoughts prior to their shootouts.
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Old August 28, 2011, 09:58 PM   #28
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At the range and during a life or death struggle are two different animals. I'd bet my life that failing to properly operate a different manual of arms than your primary firearm, has cost folks their lives in the past
Not nearly as many lives as not knowing the manual of arms for their one and only primary firearm.

Isn't the range the same place you learn to properly deploy your primary gun?

To suggest that the operation of a MORE SIMPLE weapon under stress has cost folks their lives in the past is to suggest that employing one's reserve chute in an emergency costs people their lives. I mean with the rip cord being in a different place and all and the training required to go to reserve chute upon failure of the main.

LOL, a snub nosed manual of arms? Right. Point, pull trigger.
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Old August 28, 2011, 10:14 PM   #29
Charlie_98
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I don't carry a back up gun, but I carry two different guns, er... I carry one or the other.

My primary carry is a Kimber 1911 .45... when I'm able to conceal it. When it's difficult to hide the 1911, I carry a Colt Gov't .380. My thoughts are... the controls are the same, the grip angle is basically the same and, except for the safety locking the hammer (and thus the slide with the hammer down...) it operates the same.
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Old August 28, 2011, 10:23 PM   #30
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^ I think having the same MOA is important - but I also want to point out that I think it's important to avoid introducing radically different holster arrangements.

I think if you're going to have some kind of retention rig - then you should have the same basic motions that you go through to deploy your BUG as your primary.

My opinion - if you want to see what can happen when you have different model guns in different holster setups - investigate how Tex Grebner shot himself and draw your own conclusions.

The conclusion that I drew from that situation is that when you have different MOA for the guns and different motions to operate the holsters - it can lead to confusion -muscle confusion, mental confusion - whatever - and bad things might happen.
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Old August 29, 2011, 12:14 AM   #31
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I have two Glock 19's a Gen 3 and Gen 4. Both have the same trijicon night sights and use the same magazine, extended slide locks, holsters etc for ease of transition. They both can be easily accessed when needed. The Gen 3 is my primary CCW and Gen 4 is the bug and I rotate shooting them at the range every two weeks. My wife can shoot the Gen 3 very well but prefers the grip reduction of the Gen 4.
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Old September 2, 2011, 04:17 AM   #32
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I personally carry an assortment of guns because my manner of dress changes frequently. The only requirement that I have for my carry guns is that there semis and they have no safeties or levers. For me that is the same battery of arms. I don't see a need in a back up gun maybe an extra mag though.
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Old September 2, 2011, 06:21 AM   #33
threegun
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Quote:
Not nearly as many lives as not knowing the manual of arms for their one and only primary firearm.
For sure.

Quote:
Isn't the range the same place you learn to properly deploy your primary gun?
Yes and it causes little to no pressure while practicing. Certainly not the pressures claim to be felt while involved in a life and death struggle. So actions deemed easy and unproblematic at the range are much more difficult under duress.

Quote:
To suggest that the operation of a MORE SIMPLE weapon under stress has cost folks their lives in the past is to suggest that employing one's reserve chute in an emergency costs people their lives. I mean with the rip cord being in a different place and all and the training required to go to reserve chute upon failure of the main.

LOL, a snub nosed manual of arms? Right. Point, pull trigger.
Didn't mean to suggest that. Major differences like external safeties even something as minor as trigger pull lengths can effect the outcome IMO. If the BUG is a grab and pull like a snubby obviously there isn't much other than trigger pull to worry about.
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Old September 2, 2011, 06:32 AM   #34
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I personally carry an assortment of guns because my manner of dress changes frequently. The only requirement that I have for my carry guns is that there semis and they have no safeties or levers. For me that is the same battery of arms. I don't see a need in a back up gun maybe an extra mag though
I have chosen the same route (except I use a BUG a times) selecting the simplest of platforms (Glock) and using only them as primary and mainly Glock as BUG with a splash of Glock lite guns like the Kahr PM9 and Diamondback 380.

Like you said no levers or safeties to be concerned with. Just pull and shoot. Thus we have eliminated even the remote possibility of forgetting to remove the safety. In this we have also reduced the number of things that can malfunction in our platform. Plus we have eliminated ever accidentally turning the safety on during a shootout.

Make Mr. MURPHY and his law have as difficult a time as possible getting us.
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Old September 2, 2011, 07:55 AM   #35
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Just wondering - how is it that you find places to put: 2 guns, 2 holsters, a cell phone, wallet and your keys....without a purse? Seems like an awful lot of stuff to keep track of on a daily basis.

I'm one of those guys that sometimes carries. My cell phone usually stays in my car - hate carrying it around. I'll generally carry my wallet and keys. Add a gun to that, and that's about all I'm capable of keeping track of.
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Old September 2, 2011, 08:49 AM   #36
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I use a FAG bag AKA a fanny pack. The BUG goes in a pocket or mexican carry or the ankle.

My cell phone clips on my pocket. The fanny pack allows me to carry my G30 plus a spare G21 mag and my checkbook, cash, some lip balm, tube of Advil, change, all my credit & other cards, and a crap load of receipts. All clip on and off in 2 seconds with ease.

Plus I can access the gun pretty easily and quickly and DISCRETELY.
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Old September 2, 2011, 08:50 AM   #37
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I just look like a homo while carrying according to my wonderful friends LOL. My wife is okay wih it however. She isn't embarrased to be seen with me.
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Old September 2, 2011, 09:46 AM   #38
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Cargo pants. Eddie Bauer cargoes, today.

M&P45c @ 3:30 in a CompTac Minotaur.

442 in a Mika pocket holster, left front.

Spare .45 mag, along with wallet, left cargo.

SOG SpecElite II and truck keys (keys connected to belt by Simply Rugged keeper) in right front.

iPhone and .38 speed strip in right cargo.

No problem.
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Old September 9, 2011, 07:05 AM   #39
TexasJustice7
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QUOTE:
Just wondering - how is it that you find places to put: 2 guns, 2 holsters, a cell phone, wallet and your keys....without a purse? Seems like an awful lot of stuff to keep track of on a daily basis.

I'm one of those guys that sometimes carries. My cell phone usually stays in my car - hate carrying it around. I'll generally carry my wallet and keys. Add a gun to that, and that's about all I'm capable of keeping track of.
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I guess I carry two handguns, 44 Spl Bulldog 3" in a left hand paddle holster and a S&W 38 Spl in a pocket holster left pocket. My cell phone and other items on the other side. One thing I learned in CWP training as that I never leave my home armed without my cell phone. My instructor taught us that if you have an incident you need to be the one calling 911, because the victim calls first. So on occasions where I have forgotten the phone I walk back inside and get it before I leave. So my rule is cell phone muse accompany my handguns. I would not need two guns if I carried a SA but I prefer my revolvers. And I have only had one incident where I might have drawn my handgun but did not, instead letting someone else call the police. But when that happened I did call someone who handled the rest of the problem. Later I did get called on to sign a report of the incident as a witness, but the guy bonded out on an assault charge before the day was over. With 3 speedloades for the 44, I am now looking for a pocket holster that holds a strip for 5 rounds of 38Spl but have not found what I want yet.
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:10 AM   #40
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I carry a glock 22 as my primary and a taurus model 85 snubby .38 as my bug. Same rule applies for both weapons; draw, point and shoot. No safeties to worry about, just the target. I may add my. 38 derringer in the winter just to throw in a coat pocket for easier access.
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:16 AM   #41
MLeake
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In winter coat weather, I just move my snubby to my coat pocket. (And my wallet to the inside coat pocket. I actually prefer jacket and coat weather.)
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:30 AM   #42
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Depending the season and climate conditions. In the summer and spring time months I conceal carry one small compact Bersa .380 caliber handgund.
Fall and winter months I carry a Glock 23 with a Rossi .38spl snub as back-up.
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Old September 14, 2011, 10:15 AM   #43
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I understand the urge to carry a backup gun, but I rarely do it ... my EDC is a Kahr PM9 ... it's stone reliable (I know, stuff happens) and I carry a reload, so I think I'm good to go ... two guns, extra ammo, just too much stuff, especially in Texas where most of the year all you can wear is shorts and a t-shirt.
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Old September 28, 2011, 09:00 AM   #44
TexasJustice7
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QUOTE: Biker Bill
I understand the urge to carry a backup gun, but I rarely do it ... my EDC is a Kahr PM9 ... it's stone reliable (I know, stuff happens) and I carry a reload, so I think I'm good to go ... two guns, extra ammo, just too much stuff, especially in Texas where most of the year all you can wear is shorts and a t-shirt.
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I wear exactly that, till it gets so cold I am forced to wear long trowsers.
My cargo type shorts have plenty of room, so I carry my 44 Spl 3" CA Bulldog in my left side Galco Paddle holster, but the backup gun, a S&W 642 Air weight fits very well into my left pocket with a CA pocket holster actually made for the Bulldog. My reloads consists of 3 speed loaders 5 rounds in each, and one hearing aid container with 10 of my 44 hollow point sd ammo.
Your gun has higher capacity than mine, but my speed loaders fit in my tea shirt pocket. Harbor bay tea shirts are not flimsy, but heavy enough to provide good concealment. I guess if I lived in a big city, I might have to
carry at least one SA for higher capacity. Don't think I will ever have to reload, from a speed loader but I am prepared.
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Old September 28, 2011, 09:30 AM   #45
federali
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Semantics

So that we're all on the same sheet of music, it should be noted that the term "back-up gun" or "BUG" always referred to the simultaneous carrying of a second gun. A "hold-out" gun is a third gun carried in addition to the first two.

If the second gun is not being carried, it isn't a BUG. Call it anything you want but don't call it a BUG.
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Old September 30, 2011, 09:05 AM   #46
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I have a rule .. never argue with a fellow Texan ... but hey, TexasJustice ... won't argue with all those speedloaders in a tshirt pocket, tho I would love to see a picture ... but carrying both guns on the same side?!?! no trainer on earth would back you on that ... what if your left arm is incapacitated? how do you get your backup out of your left pocket?

I live in a pretty calm and peaceful area, but I'm always armed because you just never know ... I might carry all the stuff you do if I lived in Somalia, but unless you spend a lot of time at 2am in a big city ghetto, not sure what all that stuff is for ...
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Old October 1, 2011, 03:27 PM   #47
TexasJustice7
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Bikerbill: Quote:

I have a rule .. never argue with a fellow Texan ... but hey, TexasJustice ... won't argue with all those speedloaders in a tshirt pocket, tho I would love to see a picture ... but carrying both guns on the same side?!?! no trainer on earth would back you on that ... what if your left arm is incapacitated? how do you get your backup out of your left pocket?

I live in a pretty calm and peaceful area, but I'm always armed because you just never know ... I might carry all the stuff you do if I lived in Somalia, but unless you spend a lot of time at 2am in a big city ghetto, not sure what all that stuff is for ...
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I know you have a valid point. I realize that your point regarding the guns on same side is valid. I have a cell phone, and a medical case on the right side. I am not accurate enough shooting right handed, and this is partly a thowback to the fact that I have worn a right hand paddle holster as well and was afraid I would expose the gun reaching for my cell phone, or for the medical pouch, so I dicided that it worked best for me to keep my guns away from the side where I might expose them and cause me a problem with law enforcement, for unconcealment. I guess I have less reasons now for doing it that way, since I usually carry the bug now in the pocket holster which would work on either side. If the criminal does not know I have a concealed weapon, he may be watching for it on the right side but I am left handed.
I will see my instructor next week when I go to the gun range to shoot my 44 bulldog and see what he says.

As for why I need all that stuff, the extra rounds in case of a long gun fight
even though I know the average gunfight is over in 3 shots. I don't want to run out of rounds. Ten rounds is my capacity, 5 in each revolver before reloading. I am more comfortable with two revolvers for me, than with any
semiautomatic. I have some other reasons for not wanting to move say to a safer area, relating to a family member. If I am in a gunfight, I did not plan to draw both guns, but would draw the second when the first one is empty, so if my left arm is hit, I will have to draw the gun from my left side with my right hand. I hope that never happens. So usually for me it is a choice, I reach for the pocket gun left side if I am approached and apprehensive about someone, soas not to expose the gun. I learned today, that if someone carried a third gun they call that a holdout gun. Not saying I can't shoot right handed because I can and I have practiced some, with my right hand but I can't hit acdurately enough partly because of cataracts in my right eye. And to add to this problem I am left handed but right eye dominant as I learned from Michael Martin's book Concealed Carry. So you have a valid point, but I am now getting comfortable doing it the way I do it.
On a counter point, I wonder how I would ever hide a magazine if I carried a semiautomatic. When I look, at someone to see if they are carrying a gun I look on their right side. I guess I am hoping a would be attacker will do the same not knowing I am left handed.
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Old October 1, 2011, 04:17 PM   #48
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Biker Bill, by the way, I learned to carry my billfolt in right front pocket a long time ago, and not being willing to change that, for a pocket holster, i got the back pockets anf the front left. I might add, I have lots of holsters, at least 3 pouches, a fanny pack and at one time or another I have used them all. But everything I try I find has positive advantages and negative
shortcomings, so I just try to settle on what works for me.
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Old October 1, 2011, 09:58 PM   #49
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Yeah, a front pants pocket 9mm works great when you are seated...

Or if you want to shoot from the pocket... at least, for one shot...

Front pants pocket can be a good way to carry, but it has its limitations, as does anything else.
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Old October 3, 2011, 07:22 PM   #50
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I forgotten technique with backup guns is to carry it in such a manner that's it's also accessible to the weak hand. As your strong hand is holding the gun in front of you, it may take gunfire as happened to several FBI agents in the infamous FBI 1986 shootout. Secondly, you may be trying to hold onto your gun while someone is trying to wrestle it from you. Or perhaps, an attack trained dog has you by the wrist. Produce a gun with your weak hand and the problem is largely solved. If you can't get that backup gun with your weak hand, you might as well not have it.

Weak or off-hand shooting is just a matter of practice and mental commitment. I make it a point to practice weakhanded every time I go to the range. 25 years ago, an accident with a power tool left me temporarily unable to use my strong hand. I qualified with my issued S&W model 10-3" firing the entire course left handed, shooting 276/300. I was able to use my speedloaders using the thumb, ring finger and pinky of my injured hand.
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