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Old August 28, 2011, 03:45 PM   #101
threegun
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I don't think that individuals should or really can confront a mob.
An individual responsible for the safety of children or spouse doesn't have a choice.

Can't be done is to strong a word. How do you know this? How many attackers in the mob? How far are they? Are they armed? Are they willing to loose a few members to get you? Taking on and defeating even a mob is possible depending on many factors from their willingness to die to your tactical ability.

Give me my AR and a handful of mags and we should be able to make a real big dent in them real fast. Put 20 yards between me and them and the dent will be a crater. Give me my 5 shot 638-3 airweight and the going will be much slower and less costly on them. It really just depends.

Reality suggests that they will likely run like scalded dogs when you start shooting. This is why there is little or no video footage of unarmed people advancing on an armed person who is shooting at them.

In fact I just saw another video of a shooting. Guy was punched by another dude who had tons of friends out in front of a corner convenience store. Victim of the punch gets ticked and pulls a gun from his car. He appeared to be surrounded yet once he started firing folks were running in all directions. Someone could have easily come from behind but nobody wants to die and nobody was willing to take the chance. It really just depends.
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Old August 28, 2011, 04:13 PM   #102
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Pick out the mob leader and shoot him in the head, then do the same to the apparent second in command - then watch the rest scatter like roaches

It really may NOT be PC, but it is that easy
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Old August 28, 2011, 04:59 PM   #103
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Pick out the mob leader and shoot him in the head, then do the same to the apparent second in command - then watch the rest scatter like roaches

It really may NOT be PC, but it is that easy
Landing that head shot might be harder than you would expect under stress. Shooting the leader first is sound tactics IMO.
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Old August 28, 2011, 07:26 PM   #104
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" Pick out the mob leader and shoot him in the head, then do the same to the apparent second in command - then watch the rest scatter like roaches ""

This assumes that there " is " a defined leader. ( RE: West Side Story type gang ) For modern situations with cell phones, Internet and instant communication, I'd tend to think there are a few instigators who plant the seed " Be in the parking lot at 5 PM " but once things get rolling the mob takes on a life of it's own. Perhaps small groups within the mob work as mini mobs while having the safety of the main mob.

I'd also tend to think there is a difference between 30 people in a physicaly localized mob vs 30 people scattered across a few blocks. The fair mob seems to have started out localized then fanned out to a few blocks. Once the mob has fanned out, the threat would seem to be less mob like and can be dealt with one on one.

There has got to be some military strategy written somewhere on how to deal with a mob situation.

Will the mob mentality continue to escalate in the future? Probably, as there are less and less perceived ramifications for not obeying the law. ( Jail, not obeying ones religion - if they have one, guilt for not doing the right thing. ) Also a mob gives a certain anonymity," there are so many of us the cops can't catch us all ".

Have there been any arrests on the Milwaukee fair incident? What have officials said about the mob attack and what to do in the future?
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Old August 28, 2011, 08:12 PM   #105
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Agreed Threegun I think a head shot would be very difficult on a person while under diress even at normal SD distances. The adrenaline is going to reduce skill by some percentage.
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Old August 28, 2011, 08:16 PM   #106
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I think store keepers will probably come up with something similar, when a store keeper sees a flash mob robbery taking place - they can just lock the store, (not fool-proof but a partial solution).
If a store owner does that to me and my family, and increases my/family risk of injury...they are going to see me go flash mob on them!

I don't give a damn about their insured merchandise if my/family life is threatened. I don't me or my family be locked in with them. I don't want to be held hostage.
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Old August 29, 2011, 10:53 AM   #107
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Right, "we forum members", who are gun owners or are going to be gun owners, always follow the rules, once again, dont bother anyone. Yet we are supposed to retreat. We are supposed to have our 2nd Amend. rights trampled on and then get attacked if we defend ourselves. Its like we live in some futuristic sci-fi movie, cept its real.
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Old August 29, 2011, 11:06 AM   #108
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There has got to be some military strategy written somewhere on how to deal with a mob situation.
There is: CS, also known as Tear Gas. The follow up is less than lethal tactics to take down anyone still trying to put up a fight.

The problem is the "jack-boot thugs" image of using CS on "a bunch of unruly kids..." To try military tactics on civilians in your order country is a PR nightmare that civic leaders will avoid at all cost. Unfortunately, to the average TV news numbed (or is that dumbed) person, using riot gear and tear gas on a 'flash mob' is automatically labeled "Police Brutality." Even though this is the same media that exacerbates the problem by reporting how hard it is to stop with conventional police procedure, this making the 'mob' feel they can get away with it.

Frankly, they is only two reasons people do wrong: They don't care or they don't think they will get caught.
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Old August 29, 2011, 11:22 AM   #109
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As an innocent bystander with my family: I'm now more concerned about being in a store/bank lock down, with a mob, with the military shooting burning gas, and who knows what else.

If that does happen to me, I will sue the store/bank owner for a lot more than the stolen merchandise/reserves that their insurance would cover.

I will sue the government too.

I don't want to be trapped, held hostage, threatened by both mob, owner, and government military.

If I see a flash mob....I'll be gone like a flash!

Bottom line for me....I will protect life over materialism. I will not sacrifice my family's health or life over merchandise. I'm not going to protect or fight over material stuff. Insurance will cover their losses, but not my losses.
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Old August 29, 2011, 03:17 PM   #110
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If a store owner does that to me and my family, and increases my/family risk of injury...they are going to see me go flash mob on them!

I don't give a damn about their insured merchandise if my/family life is threatened. I don't me or my family be locked in with them. I don't want to be held hostage.
You have a right to sue and the store owner has a right to protect their merchandise (much of which isn't insurable BTW). Its easy to say so strongly how you would sue but if the shoe was on the other foot and it was your house being looted, I bet you would lock those doors possibly on my family.

Its your duty to protect your family. Likewise its the duty of the shop owner to protect his family/livelihood. It is illegal for any shop owner to lock all exits. As if in a fire you should have the understanding of the exit signs to the back for escape or the means for defense if you can't.

I would never award someone money in this situation unless you were suing the flash mob participants.
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Old August 29, 2011, 04:10 PM   #111
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store owner has a right to protect their merchandise
They can protect their merchandise as long as it doesn't put my life in jeopardy. If they put my life in jeopardy, I will consider what I need to do for self defense. A store owner could very easily become the "bad guy" if they choose wrong.

In a riot or mob, things can get out of control very easily. The fog of war. That's why my ultimate self defense action is to exit the dangerous situation as fast as I can, and flee to safety.

The last thing I want is a store owner limiting my ability to defend myself/family.

A store owner creating a hostage situation to protect their merchandise is a real bad idea. I'll make sure holding me hostage isn't worth the merchandise they're protecting...via a big lawsuit!
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Old August 29, 2011, 04:17 PM   #112
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Indeed. A security system that locks down the door with innocents inside said store with BGs is asking to get sued out of their minds (and losing).
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Old August 29, 2011, 04:18 PM   #113
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Someone in this thread scares me more than flash mobs
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Old August 29, 2011, 04:21 PM   #114
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Someone in this thread scares me more than flash mobs
I was thinking the very same thing as I read down this thread of posts about taking head shots on people.

Try avoidance, it really does work.
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Old August 29, 2011, 04:52 PM   #115
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oneounceload
Pick out the mob leader and shoot him in the head, then do the same to the apparent second in command - then watch the rest scatter like roaches

It really may NOT be PC, but it is that easy
Not saying that that would be the right thing to do, but head shots aren't easy - better off double tapping 'em CoM.

With that said, we're talking flash mobs - where there is no clear cut leader. I've said it before, flash mobs are best dealt with using a large canister of OC.
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Old August 30, 2011, 03:41 PM   #116
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Snakyjake, Don't come into our establishment then because one of our defenses is to use our magnetized locks to instantly lock the doors. Like I said we have a right to protect our merchandise. If you attack us for this you will be charged for your actions. If you are harmed or damaged from this you have civil recourse.

A few years ago we had a handgun go missing from the showcase and used the locks to prevent the bad guys from leaving as we didn't know which one had done it. Police recovered the gun and arrested the bad guys. The two innocent customers were allowed to leave once the situation was covered and our employee was guarding the door. Guess what they were very understanding and happy to know that we prevented one of these thugs from being an armed thug.

You never answered the question. If my family and I are visiting your home and a flash mob begins to loot you home and you have an electronic lock would you allow them to walk away with everything you have worked your life for or would you lock them in?
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Old August 30, 2011, 04:31 PM   #117
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It is easy to say you will sue on the Internet. Sue the government and the store.

Please do some legal research.

1. What are your damages for being locked in?
2. Can you afford to sue? Do you have the resources to sue the city or state or Feds?
3. Will a lawyer take it on contingency?
4. Is there legal doctrine to support your suit?
5. Are you willing to spend years in court?

Before you bandy that about, maybe you should check such out.
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Old August 30, 2011, 04:44 PM   #118
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Banks have their lock down systems setup in foyers, they allow the BG total egress but they lock behind them... if all the BGs get into the foyer at the same time - the foyer locks and they are trapped in there. No way to get toally out and no way to get back into the lobby of the bank. There are ways around this - like just propping the door open - or in the case of a mob, the number of people coming in or going out would tend to keep the door open and the whole mob probably wouldn't be in the foyer at the same time, but anyway, banks have been doing this in a limited fashion for a long time.
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Old August 30, 2011, 04:48 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by dannyb
And I don't give an anagrammed carp if the ACLU doesn't like it when they cut cell phone communications during a flash mob situation -a flash mob is a violation of everybody's civil rights.
I know this was from a page back, but I don't think that this jab at the ACLU should go unquestioned, mostly due to the illogical nature of the approved action. After all, wouldn't cutting communication be the absolute worst possible thing for victims and innocent bystanders? If communications are cut, how can the police be notified and emergency medical assistance dispatched?

A flash mob can still be planned for an area where communications have been cut. In fact, such an area would seem to be a prime target.

Anyway, being that I live in the city of Chicago, carrying is not an option. I would call 911 while trying to put as much distance between myself and the mob as possible. Ideally I would be able to single out a few members of the mob and give a good description and direction of travel once they flee. If the police can catch one person immediately after the attack, they might be able to catch more later.
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Old August 30, 2011, 05:03 PM   #120
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The precursor to the flash mob robberies was when group of thieves would sprint into a store – grab what they could and sprint out before store personnel could react. It wasn’t “smash & grab” I forgot – did they call it “dash & grab” or something like that?

In the bad parts of Chicago there is a dearth of normal retail and grocery stores. It’s because the cost of doing business in the bad parts of town is exceedingly high. It takes a special breed of merchant to fill that niche and those who do have unique store layouts – as in – the “store” is basically one long isle of merchandise displayed behind heavy duty reinforced Plexiglas. Consumers point to what they want, the clerk gets it for them and they exchange through a drawer system or a revolving portal mechanism.

There are whole sections of Chicago where the stores are completely flash mob proof. It’s because the merchants learned long ago how to defend against it.
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Old August 30, 2011, 07:25 PM   #121
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In the pawn business our only reasonable control is access through the doors. This can be breached if a member holds the door open. Phase 2 is pepper spray (if they are unarmed and non combative) and I mean a fire extinguisher sized can.
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Old August 31, 2011, 04:16 PM   #122
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Snakyjake, Don't come into our establishment then because one of our defenses is to use our magnetized locks to instantly lock the doors
Some states have laws against this, it is a form of kidnapping, the mag locks here lock the inside doors but unlock the outer doors so the bg can get out and not start shooting in the foyer. Best check the local laws before you lock anyone in anything. In iowa kidnapping is a life sentance too.

A guy grabbed a gal off her bike and took her into the woods and did his bad stuff. He is in prison today for his life for kidnapping they didnt even go after the rape charge.

Pawn guys here all carry, I know many of them.
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Old August 31, 2011, 04:33 PM   #123
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Pawn guys here all carry, I know many of them.
We carry also.

BTW We are not prohibiting you from leaving only from leaving through the front doors. All businesses are required to have marked emergency exits that legally cannot be blocked. Using our tactics does however buy us enough time to catch the bad guys on fire with pepper spray.
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Old September 2, 2011, 04:05 AM   #124
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If I saw a group of individuals suddenly coming in a store me and or my wife is in we would leave. This "flash mob" thing is getting pretty big I am assuming sense I have seen it on several forums. If I were an business owner I would only allow "x" amount of customers in my establishment at a time. I would also start carrying openly if people ignore the sign and politely ask them to leave in a non threating manner with gun holstered but visible. All in all I think situational awareness is everyone's friend when it comes to this "flash mob" issue.
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Old September 2, 2011, 06:39 AM   #125
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The thing with the flash mob Datguy is they will hold the door if you have an auto lock to allow the rest in. If they are just stealing you can't shoot them.

Heck if it was as easy as just popping them we would worry about locks and pepper spray.

Also it is very very difficult to filter customers. They will not wait. Not like kids waiting to get some candy or a soda outside a 7-11 after school. Adults will get ticked and leave. Most are good people anyway.
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