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Old August 24, 2011, 04:17 PM   #76
Glenn E. Meyer
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NO lawyer here, but if a group of folks committing a crime continue to approach you after being warned that you are in fear of your life and they said bad things to you - I suspect disparity of force would be your defense if you open fire.

Being the fine scholar that I am - I am currently reading a heavy tome about killing in self defense by an Oxford law professor that reviews this concept in an historical and international manner.

To the question, Threegun, there is a whole chapter of the need to retreat and the use of lethal force. Should you retreat?

It's dense. Right now, she's discussing the difference between justification and excuse.
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Old August 24, 2011, 04:25 PM   #77
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Another reason why I live in Maine. The only new factor in all of this is technology, and IMHO flash mob violence is over-hyped by the media. Remember all the "wilding" stories from ten or so years ago?

I grew up in a pretty big East coast city, and was part of school integration in the 70's. I've had some experience with angry mobs who look for race based targets. The best advice I can give is to get out fast and call the police. One man with a gun, but without a badge, can't fix an angry mob. But he can get himself in jail and on the top of the local news.
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Old August 24, 2011, 04:42 PM   #78
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I thought it was over-hyped too and I even posted so here in this forum, but I talked to a cousin who is a CPD officer and he told me it actually had occurred in Chicago a lot more than the few instances which made the news.

Quite a bit more

He recounted six incidents that never made the news, they happened at retailers downtown, and three incidents that were flash mobbing at the beach but they weren't reported as such.

If a dozen delinquints in a pack roving the beach, decide to pick on someone and steal their pop money - it's just a mugging.

If a dozen delinquints come from six different directions and suddenly descend on some poor guy, beat him up and take his pop money and then dissapear to the four corners of the Earth - it's a flash mob. But to the victim and the responding officers it's hard to tell the difference, one from the other.
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Old August 24, 2011, 05:20 PM   #79
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Quote:
To the question, Threegun, there is a whole chapter of the need to retreat and the use of lethal force. Should you retreat?
My angle comes from being a shop manager. I have a right to protect our merchandise. I feel as though it is my duty to prevent harm from coming to the store while under my management.

My boss has always maintained a save yourself mindset. He does allow us the means to do so (allowing us to carry). He knows that us protecting ourselves makes his inventory tougher to remove. He has said that if caught behind in the reactionary curve or being held at gunpoint to comply. He can make the money back. Kinda nice to know.
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Old August 24, 2011, 05:26 PM   #80
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Quote:
My angle comes from being a shop manager. I have a right to protect our merchandise. I feel as though it is my duty to prevent harm from coming to the store while under my management.

My boss has always maintained a save yourself mindset. He does allow us the means to do so (allowing us to carry). He knows that us protecting ourselves makes his inventory tougher to remove. He has said that if caught behind in the reactionary curve or being held at gunpoint to comply. He can make the money back. Kinda nice to know.
I am suprised the owner can get insurance for his business. Because of endless lawsuits many insurance companies wont issue a policy without a "no guns allowed" sign in the window.
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Old August 24, 2011, 05:51 PM   #81
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I am suprised the owner can get insurance for his business. Because of endless lawsuits many insurance companies wont issue a policy without a "no guns allowed" sign in the window.
I know right. We have good guys around here though. Not the turnaround experienced at the pawnmarts. We are FFL's also so maybe that has a bit to do with it.
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Old August 24, 2011, 09:11 PM   #82
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Quote:
it gets dicey with these flash mobs - it's a new thing with new dynamics.

I'm going to start shooting because someone got pushed down and had their backpack stolen?

I'm going to start waving my gun in the air because someone got punched in the mouth and had their iPad lifted?

it's not like rape or armed robbery... it's a different dynamic.
Sorry, did you have a bad life?
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Old August 25, 2011, 02:09 AM   #83
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^ I do have some trauma that I am dealing with:

1) Not buying the H&K P7 line up in all the different calibers - and including the long barreled sport version.

2) Not hanging on to my Browning High-Power.

3) Not getting an American Derringer DA 9mm when they were still making them.

4) Not getting an H&K 94 when I could have.

5) Not getting a Marline Camp 9 when I could have...



So many regrets...
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Old August 25, 2011, 02:15 AM   #84
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C0untZer0, I wouldn't fret over #5. My brother had a 9mm camp carbine and it was a POS. I wouldn't loose any sleep over not having one...

Tony
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Old August 25, 2011, 07:49 AM   #85
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C0untZer0

Were you also smoking black market ciggs at the time?
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Old August 25, 2011, 09:55 AM   #86
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Question? Why were wagon trains so important back in the day? Survival of the fit via safety in numbers. You travel alone, you takes your chances with groups of marauding antagonists... or so history would have us believe. Same old, same old, updated via technology in the 21st century.
Quote:
...there is a whole chapter of the need to retreat and the use of lethal force. Should you retreat?
Another worthy read might be Richard Maxwell Brown's tome "No Duty To Retreat". While one might or might not have a Duty to Retreat based on state law, one of the quotes within Browns book is this...
Quote:
Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife.
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr - Brown v. United States, 256 U.S. 335, 343 (16 May 1921).
Which was part of his reasoning for a man to have a duty to defend self here and now. (tho perhaps this quote is taken out of context... never having read Brown v. US, I cannot say.)

Uplifted knife... disparity of force... hmmm. When the group monkey dance is up close and in your face... act. Better yet, avoid totally if one can, any group of monkeys dancing in your immediate area and/or travel in your own group.

In way of perhaps misguided proactive prevention, BART did this a week or two ago for similar reasons... much to the chagrin of all legal users. Ooooh were people upset!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-200...stop-protests/

("group monkey dance" an apt term, taken from Rory Miller's Meditations on Violence)
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Old August 25, 2011, 01:48 PM   #87
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Seems like its always the good guys retreating. Oh dont go in that part of town. I dont even let my wife and daughter go to the mall at night anymore because of the self proclaimed "tuff guys" who walk around starting trouble. Theres only 1 mall left in Toledo because the other two have been shut down because of nitwit behavior. As has been stated before, the world is ruled by the aggresive use of force. Weakness spawns increased violence. So those who play by the rules, dont cause problems, mind there own business (99.5% of the forum members here) have to continue to "retreat". Im getting tired of it personally.
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Old August 25, 2011, 06:41 PM   #88
WANT A LCR 22LR
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A couple of things.

At what point in a mob shop lifting event do anti looting laws come into play?

" Weakness spawns increased violence. "

True, if there isn't any resistance / repercussions to a behavior, that behavior will continue and escalate because " I do XXXX because I can. . "
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Old August 25, 2011, 07:29 PM   #89
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How about a sign that says, "No illegally carried weapons allowed on these premises." That should comply with insurance demands and still permit legally licensed citizens to carry.
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Old August 26, 2011, 03:06 PM   #90
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Think insurance companies would rather have no guns. Covers all gun related liability.
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Old August 26, 2011, 04:29 PM   #91
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I must have been living under a rock because until this week I had not heard about the flash mobs in the US, but with a little research you can see that they have been in a number of cities recently. For me, armed or not I would call the police and be a witness if needed, but I am not getting caught up in a mob unless I absolutely have to. Typing this made me think of something though...if you fired in the air and not at a person do you think they would disperse?
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Old August 26, 2011, 06:26 PM   #92
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Typing this made me think of something though...if you fired in the air and not at a person do you think they would disperse?
I don't know about the legality and haven't thought about it tactically but yes I do.
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Old August 26, 2011, 07:43 PM   #93
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flash mobs

hmmmm...

Out here Texas way, we just don't have this "flash mob" nonsense.
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Old August 26, 2011, 08:37 PM   #94
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Cindyann, two problems with that:

1) The bullet has to go somewhere. Up into the air endangers people at random. If you want to fire a warning shot, put it into something that will trap the bullet;

And

2) a DA would very likely argue that your use of a warning shot implies that you did not feel like you needed to employ deadly force; yet the firing of the weapon constitutes deadly force...

Warning shots are generally not recommended for non-LE. My take on them is that I might use one in an outdoor setting to deter a large critter, but not against a human. If the human doesn't react to the gun itself, what should I expect the warning shot to accomplish?
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Old August 26, 2011, 10:34 PM   #95
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Interesting discussion folks... First I've seen on the internet. Thanks...

As for my .02 about dealing with a flash mob -I think it has to be about your training... Running the hierarchy of actions.

And that means...
1) Bring a gun
2) Know the terrain - We need to be familiar with the turf we're on.
3) Evade/Escape if at all possible - Distance is your friend
4) Call for help
5) If a fight is inevitable, have a plan
6) ALWAYS have a backup plan
7) Cheat! The only fair fight is the one you lose
8) Watch their hands
9) Always fight your way to a bigger weapon/more ammo/better cover, etc.
10) They may kill you, but they will have to beat you with your own gun after it runs out of ammo
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Old August 27, 2011, 12:45 AM   #96
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i live in milwaukee wi. over the summer there has been at least 3 times where mobs of people swarmed, attacked and robbed people. this is not hype. this is happening. we cannot carry here yet (law goes into affect in nov.) i am guessing they will not be so quick to attack if they people they are attacking might be packing.
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Old August 27, 2011, 07:28 AM   #97
WANT A LCR 22LR
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" we cannot carry here yet (law goes into affect in nov.) "

I'd say carry now then if caught cite the recent violence and the impending new law. While this list does not condone breaking the law, the choice between living outside the law on this one issue under these circumstances and dying legal is clear.

Any idea why the delay in the law taking effect? Is it to give someone a chance to cancel it?
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Old August 28, 2011, 12:31 AM   #98
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i just got passed a few weeks ago. its our first time having CC so they are working out the rules and regs and prices and what needs to be taught etc. they set nov. as the time when it was going to be ready to go into affect. when they would first be accepting applications.
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Old August 28, 2011, 10:40 AM   #99
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I've said this in other posts, but it bears on this topic. The more leeway given to criminals, the farther they go. Look at fairly recent history:

When the advice on being mugged was to carry some money to give as tribute (better to give up some cash than to be harmed), the muggers started beating up people who didn't give them what they thought was enough. Then they started stabbing and shooting their victims even if they were given money. Finally some people started shooting the muggers instead. The problem didn't go away, but it certainly was lessened.

When car jackings became the rage, the advice was to just give up your car, your car is worth more than your life. So the carjackers started killing people whether they gave their car up or not. A few people had the temerity to produce guns and fire them at carjackers; a few carjackers died and the problem lessened when it became know that carjacking could be hazardous to the carjacker.

I don't think that individuals should or really can confront a mob. On the other hand, LEOs will have to start thinking that this problem is escalating from theft to assault to -- fill in the blank. And I don't give an anagrammed carp if the ACLU doesn't like it when they cut cell phone communications during a flash mob situation - a flash mob is a violation of everybody's civil rights.
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Old August 28, 2011, 11:24 AM   #100
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Why would you give someone a carp? Sounds fishy to me.
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