The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 23, 2011, 02:28 PM   #51
Helios
Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2010
Location: Maitland, Florida
Posts: 71
Chad I think it would have to do with where you were when engaging the mob.

Say you are inside the gas station like in one of the mob videos and the mob decides you're next. Hopefully you have some environmental assistance in the form of shelves, displays, etc. Most gas stations have one main door and a back door. I would be trying to get to that back door.

From some of the videos though they very quickly fill and surround the store before the owners or patrons really know whats going on.

If I had to shoot, it would be only against what was between me and leaving. Understanding that once it is known you have a gun and are trying to leave, the mob could focus its entire attention on you. So I would shoot only if I had to and wouldn't harass the mob, especially if I were so far unnoticed, by firing at random thugs. I would simply leave as fast as I could.
Helios is offline  
Old August 23, 2011, 02:31 PM   #52
Helios
Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2010
Location: Maitland, Florida
Posts: 71
Good post Glenn, I agree. In a situation like what you describe I would have to stay hidden if possible and call the police. With a group that large, already committing violence, I am not helping by also being taken under their control and hurt/killed.
Helios is offline  
Old August 23, 2011, 03:06 PM   #53
chadstrickland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: alabama
Posts: 537
Naive maybe so.

If one of my friends where getting beaten to death then ill do whatever it takes to get to them and get them out of there. Naive, legal, illegal, reckless, carefully, rational, irrational, I would help them. Because they would do the same for me. As they say, one ounce of loyalty is worth a pound of cleverness.

Someone I didn't know then I probably wouldn't do nothing to help them and I could live just fine with myself with that decision.

Location of where I am at does effect my escape route not who I would save.

Glenn you are correct, it is best for our own personal safety to flee and call the cops.
__________________
Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition..
chadstrickland is offline  
Old August 23, 2011, 04:37 PM   #54
zombieslayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,183
I've ran from folks before. Thats the best plan. A four wheel drive is a great way out of dodge. If they swarm you, just kick it down into four low...
__________________
"An angry prophet, denouncing the hypocrisies of our time"
zombieslayer is offline  
Old August 23, 2011, 04:44 PM   #55
chadstrickland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: alabama
Posts: 537
Rofl your preferred tactics match with your avatar
__________________
Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition..
chadstrickland is offline  
Old August 23, 2011, 07:25 PM   #56
old bear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2009
Location: Not close enough to the beach
Posts: 1,158
Quote:
^ I hate being caught with my pants down.
"Always keep your clothing and firearm where you can find then in the dark."
old bear is offline  
Old August 23, 2011, 07:50 PM   #57
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
It takes a serious load of testosterone to launch a coordinated attack while unarmed on a man with a firearm who is shooting those ahead of you. In war you are a hero if you do this. On the street I don't know what you are because I have never seen anyone do this. They run. If they don't and you are half decent with your gun you will take a bunch with you.

If they all attack you are in trouble. I just don't believe they will attack in the face of deadly fire.
threegun is offline  
Old August 23, 2011, 08:20 PM   #58
TheGoldenState
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2010
Posts: 1,191
That video +
Quote:
Things like this is exactly why I believe people should carry
= a Very bad day in court.
__________________
The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...
TheGoldenState is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 07:50 AM   #59
Lee Lapin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2004
Location: SE NC
Posts: 1,238
I don't want to sound like some kind of chest beating testosterone freak here, but it's important to remember that solving Problem One (the gunfight, only when it cannot be avoided, of course) trumps solving Problem Two (the court fight). In other words, a bad day in court is still better than a good day in the morgue or a good couple of months in the hospital.

I'm still firmly in the camp of ADEE (avoid, de-escalate/disengage, escape, evade) if at all possible, but if it's not possible then you have to be prepared to deal with the situation as it's presented to you.

fwiw,

lpl
__________________
Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order!

Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.
Lee Lapin is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 10:22 AM   #60
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,683
Threegun, there are clear instances of armed folks not firing on a mob and becoming paralyed. They are then disarmed - and doesn't go well.

Thus, some mobs will attack such and the defender always doesn't come out well.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old August 24, 2011, 10:31 AM   #61
Magnum Wheel Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2006
Location: Southern Minnesota
Posts: 8,250
back to pepper spray...

... as to the mentality of "the mob" if you have an angry mob that are all fired up... that is probably the most dangerous... but if you have a mob of younger "normal" people, that are bored & looking for a thrill, then most are going to run at the sight of a gun...

the example in the convienience store, setting off a canister of something rudely unpleasant would probably have dispersed the croud pretty quickly... fanning a canister of pepper spray would likely have resulted in saving 1/2 of his inventory, while not putting him in an extremely unfreindly court situation, if the mayors 12 year old son happened along for something "cool" to do... just for example

rotton egg smell, skunk smell would likely have sent them all fleeing

not saying I'll quit carrying my gun, just that there will be situations, where it's not the best tool for the job...
__________________
In life you either make dust or eat dust...
Magnum Wheel Man is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 10:43 AM   #62
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
I agree with Glenn E. Meyer's Post #50.

A problem dealing with mobs is that they can be or do almost anything. They can range from wreaking homicidal violence on any person caught in their range to people streaking in their birthday suit. Quite a range.

We are considering mobs which are violent. Mobs can bring tremendous force to bear in a fluid manner. They can soak up lethal hits to individuals and continue to function. If you are able to neutralize a few individuals that may have no effect on the mob's continued violence. If someone draws attention by proving they are a threat to the mob, it is likely that the mob will turn to deal with the threat.

While mobs are made up of individuals, the individuals largely give in to influences which remove personal responsibility. The numbers which make up a mob afford a way for the individual to hide "self" and be moved by the mob experience, peer pressure in a way.

I would have to make the decision to intervene to stop mob violence based upon whether I thought sacrificing my life would benefit anyone. Would my action be futile and I become just one more fatality? Am I willing almost certain death or great bodily harm for a stranger? I am willing to die to save my family.

Mobs can therefore be powerful, durable, dangerous and unpredictable.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 10:46 AM   #63
serf 'rett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2009
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 1,333
There are many different flavors of mobs and the mob flavor will be a determinate. The Grab-N-Git bunch on the OP video should be given distance and little interference, which, in my view, is true of any mob; however, it’s the unavoidable or inescapable mob geared up for violence, aka the bunch at the state fair, that presents a problem. No easy answers come to mind, but having a concealed firearm would definitely be better than not.

While it is true that mobs have overcome someone with a weapon or gun, I would think there more instances that a crowd clears the area when the shooting starts.

The OP asks if you would try to help or defend in a mob situation. Your state law will play a part in the equation. Some states will “allow” intervention, some will not.
__________________
A lack of planning on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on my part.
serf 'rett is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 10:48 AM   #64
Pilot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2000
Posts: 3,650
The "flash mobs" in Philly are violent. They are not just stealing they are beating up random white people that they view as easy targets. The reports are that they are ALL African American youths, mostly in their teens. Several people have been critically harmed, some permanently.

Firearms, may or may not be effective in keeping you and your family safe. That's the bottom line. Keeping you and yours UNHARMED. I have been carrying pepper spray in addition to a firearm as I believe that could be the best way to deal with a crowd and give you time to get away while not bringing the wrath of the urban legal system against you later.
__________________
Pilot
Pilot is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 11:58 AM   #65
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
The biggest problem I see is that you are no longer facing 1, 2, or 3 opponents, you are facing what may as well be a stone age army, that may have a couple guns themselves. I say stone age, because their tactics will be as such. It's the same as handing a kid a knife and watching him flail wildly, or a gun and he just empties a magazine in the general direction. May seem "untrained" and unruly but it's no less deadly as a group of trained men with the same weapons.

That being said, you treat them as what they are, a mob. You do what you can top put yourself into a position to "funnel" them, whether or not you even plan to fight. Do this, call 911, and be ready to engage them however you can. I'd suggest finding a melee weapon just in case, and be prepared to drop your magazine and empty the chamber. They can still pick it up and load it, but it buys you time if they are swarming you and grabbing it.

My two cents...
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 01:01 PM   #66
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 1,232
On the positive, if we follow the tried and true rules for most petty dictatorships, mobs break up quickly when live fire starts.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 01:28 PM   #67
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
I think at some point a mob is going to come into contact with someone like Jerome Ersland.

An armed citizen who has poor judgement, and just blasts away at a mob. I'm not defending or advocating it, but it might have an effect on mobs after a well publicized incident of flash mobbers getting shot.

I always waffle on this because on one hand criminals are generally stupid, irrational, undiciplined, impulsive, compulsive and myopic. If they were rational and used more forethought they wouldn't be criminals (in most cases).

But the flash mob phenomenon is something that requires planning and forethought.

If the people who are doing this are capable of thinking ahead enough to plan the robbery or attack, then a well publicized shooting of multiple mob members during the commission of a crime might disuade this activity in the future.

But for me personally - if I don't have a loved one to protect, I would flee the situation. Yes I'd like to help, but there are just too many varibles in the situation - too many things that can go wrong.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 01:40 PM   #68
zombieslayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,183
The chance of a mob taking your weapon is a very real possibility. This is probably why correctional officers rarely are armed with firearms, unless theyre up high or behind something. Maybe some CO's on tfl will chime in. I bet they could share some valuable insight.
__________________
"An angry prophet, denouncing the hypocrisies of our time"
zombieslayer is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 01:45 PM   #69
farmerboy
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2009
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,343
to the OP, if no one is causing anyone any harm, why would you want to get involved? stay out, leave and call authorietys to last poster. I would definately get involved if I had a loved one being threatened and also if anyone was too. Might be a woman being raped, someones dad being beat the list goes on and on. Yes usually alittle gunfire goes along way and mobs break up and everyones flees pretty quickly. If not, hope I got enough ammo on hand and still call and get back up before I start but dont see someone in need and flee. Thats whats wrong with society today!!!! In my opinion anyway.
farmerboy is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 01:53 PM   #70
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
it gets dicey with these flash mobs - it's a new thing with new dynamics.

I'm going to start shooting because someone got pushed down and had their backpack stolen?

I'm going to start waving my gun in the air because someone got punched in the mouth and had their iPad lifted?

it's not like rape or armed robbery... it's a different dynamic.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 02:08 PM   #71
zombieslayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,183
There was a mob rape incident in central park nyc several years ago. Caught on video. Girls getring raped. No one did a thing. Except film it and cheer the crowd on even more.
__________________
"An angry prophet, denouncing the hypocrisies of our time"
zombieslayer is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 02:27 PM   #72
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
Threegun, there are clear instances of armed folks not firing on a mob and becoming paralyed. They are then disarmed - and doesn't go well.

Thus, some mobs will attack such and the defender always doesn't come out well.
Glenn I agree. I don't plan on taking one on. If I was however forced to take one on I would do so with the belief that the crowd will begin to retreat once I start firing. If I am forced to get violent then death or grave bodily injury was eminent anyway so if they don't run away I am no worse off. In any event that I am forced to become violent, I hope to fight as viciously and savagely as my body, weaponry, and training allow. If it is enough and I am lucky enough to survive awesome. If it isn't enough and I die, at least it was while fighting back.

I still haven't seen anyone advance on an active shooter more than a few steps. If 5 bowling pins fall in just a few seconds imagine how many targets three times wider can be hit in the same time. A lot of hurt can be dished rather quickly especially up close and when combined with good tactics. Maintaining separation would be key.
threegun is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 02:37 PM   #73
BGutzman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2009
Location: Frozen Tundra
Posts: 2,414
I would act to stop a group from raping a woman as the very act in a group scenario (or even a single rapist) as it obviously puts her life in danger or alternatively I would act to stop them from killing someone but they could rob till the cows come home and that’s fine with me.
__________________
Molon Labe
BGutzman is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 03:20 PM   #74
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Quote:
I'm going to start shooting because someone got pushed down and had their backpack stolen?

I'm going to start waving my gun in the air because someone got punched in the mouth and had their iPad lifted?
I wouldn't be shooting because they hit me in the mouth. I would be shooting because multiple attackers are starting an attack on me which in my mind CLEARLY constitutes a eminent risk of death or grave bodily injury.

I wouldn't shoot if my powers of knowing the outcome in advance were working. Since a fat lip isn't worth a life.
threegun is offline  
Old August 24, 2011, 03:59 PM   #75
threegun
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2006
Location: Tampa,Fl
Posts: 4,000
Glenn, We have flash mobs stealing stuff from a retailer. If the difference between larceny and robbery is the element of fear, are the flash mob participants robbing the retailer (I'm sure they are in fear)? Robbery in most States constitutes intent to cause death or GBI. Number of attackers constitutes ability. If they are closing on you that would give them opportunity.

Seems like a flash mob could be met with lethal force if they refused to stop advancing on you after you confronted them.

How do you see it?
threegun is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13596 seconds with 7 queries