The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 28, 2011, 09:06 PM   #51
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,326
Quote:
Only a very few Federal LE work for the courts. Most Federal LE work for the Justice Department...
You are correct. I was confusing Justice with Judicial.
Quote:
So the whole point is that he's a civilian, i.e. not in the military, and so not eligible for any military exemptions...
So although he's the top ranking officer of the military he's not in the military. I guess I hadn't ever thought of it like that.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 09:07 PM   #52
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Vanya, as Commander in Chief, he is a lawful target for enemy military operations, so I don't think allowing him some military or LE privileges would be out of line.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 28, 2011, 11:32 PM   #53
Vanya
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 3,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
Vanya, as Commander in Chief, he is a lawful target for enemy military operations, so I don't think allowing him some military or LE privileges would be out of line.
It's tempting to agree, but I think "allowing him military privileges" is the thin end of a dangerous wedge...

The balance of power between the three civilian branches of government and the armed forces was, and rightly, a significant concern for the founding fathers, which is why the Constitution not only puts the ultimate authority in the hands of the civilian branches, but divides it between them, with the power to make war resting with Congress, and the power of command resting with the President.

That's a line that's been blurred enough in recent decades, with the way the Presidency has usurped the war-making powers of Congress, and with G.W. Bush adopting military-style clothing ("Mission Accomplished" -- remember that?).

I'm old enough to remember when it was considered improper for the President to return military salutes, because he was a civilian and not in uniform. That, IMHO, was the right idea.
__________________
"Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and lack of understanding."
(Milan Kundera, Book of Laughter and Forgetting, 1980)
Vanya is offline  
Old August 29, 2011, 08:00 AM   #54
zukiphile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 1,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSA
As far as I know, all Federal LE, (e.g. Secret Service, the FBI, BATFE, DEA, et.al.) are all under the Judicial Branch, not the Executive Branch.
The police power is an executuve function. This is why, for instance, the director if the FBI is nominated by the executive.

There have been some delegations of authority that were dubious. Specifically, the special prosecutor appointed by Congress, involved an executive function not a legislative one. There are other examples in which the Congress arguably delegates its own authority to the exec impermissibly, but these transgressions of the rule tend to illustrate that each branch is limited to its own function.

Quote:
So although he's the top ranking officer of the military he's not in the military. I guess I hadn't ever thought of it like that.
WJC attempted an "active duty military" defense to a civil suit against him. It was rejected, if I recall correctly.


I suppose the answer to "Can the POTUS carry?" invites an intermediate question, "Who is going to stop him?".

Stopping him involves an executive function, as does prosecuting him. Since neither Congress nor courts have a role in execution of laws, the hand of POTUS should be free on this issue.

Last edited by zukiphile; August 29, 2011 at 10:16 AM.
zukiphile is offline  
Old August 29, 2011, 08:40 AM   #55
blume357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2005
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 3,943
Say 'someone' decided the president could not legally carry... there is no one who can arrest him for it other than the congress impeaching him for it.....

read the constitution.

like some folks have already pointed out.... I think he or she could carry if they so choose.... I personally would not.... got enough folks around with guns that are better trained than me....

I've actually spent time in, under and on top of the White House when the president was not even there and there are so many folks with guns...most you can't see unless you watch the same area for an hour or more, that if a bad thing happened all I was planning to do was dig a hole.....
blume357 is offline  
Old August 30, 2011, 02:48 PM   #56
EricReynolds
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 393
Twobit: It's true, Reagan carried. I never heard that he carried in a briefcase though. The insane thing would have been if he was carrying when he was shot and returned fire to Hinkley. Seriously, the rest of the world would have an opinion of Americans that we are a nation of cowboys!
EricReynolds is offline  
Old September 4, 2011, 08:47 AM   #57
Terminus009
Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2011
Location: SoIL
Posts: 71
I think the prez should absolutely ccw! In theory he could be alone in a room with that one (implausible, I admit) "bad" secret service dude. Assassination-by-trusted-bodyguard is a time-honored tradition worldwide!
__________________
----- In Justice Robert H. Jackson's memorable words, "If there is any fixed star in our constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
Terminus009 is offline  
Old December 10, 2011, 03:24 AM   #58
Ambishot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2011
Location: US
Posts: 274
EricReynolds and Twobit

Quote:
Twobit: It's true, Reagan carried. I never heard that he carried in a briefcase though. The insane thing would have been if he was carrying when he was shot and returned fire to Hinkley. Seriously, the rest of the world would have an opinion of Americans that we are a nation of cowboys!
I know this is an older post, but in Ronald Kessler's book, In The President's Secret Service, It actually states that Reagan had a pistol on him a few times. It mentioned that he had one in a briefcase during some of the talks with Khrushchev.

...not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing. Wonder if Khrushchev had one in his?
Ambishot is offline  
Old December 10, 2011, 08:47 AM   #59
Rusty35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2011
Posts: 140
Don't see why a President couldn't CC, as long as they can pass the background check.
Rusty35 is offline  
Old December 10, 2011, 09:40 AM   #60
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
The reason you carry a weapon is to protect yourself from the unforeseen. Yes, the President is surrounded by multiple layers of security and hundreds of security staff. BUT the Boy Scout motto doesn't stipulate that you stop being prepared once you are surrounded by a Secret Service detail. No one can predict future events and the same reasons why you and I, private citizens, carry concealed is the same reason why a President should. Not that he should return fire in an attack, there are people for that, but to be prepared for the unexpected.
SwampYankee is offline  
Old December 10, 2011, 09:59 AM   #61
C0untZer0
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,555
After I saw the movie "The Hidden", I believe the President should carry.
C0untZer0 is offline  
Old December 10, 2011, 06:28 PM   #62
ttolhurst
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2011
Location: China, ME
Posts: 7
Quote:
I know this is an older post, but in Ronald Kessler's book, In The President's Secret Service, It actually states that Reagan had a pistol on him a few times. It mentioned that he had one in a briefcase during some of the talks with Khrushchev.
Khrushchev died in 1971. Reagan was president from 1981-1989. Did they have these talks in a time machine?
ttolhurst is offline  
Old December 11, 2011, 11:21 AM   #63
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,679
This one is going off the rails!

Want to get it off track before we have to close it.

I have to go delete some truly hilarious posts to keep within the rules structures.

Some of you should know better.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old December 11, 2011, 04:14 PM   #64
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,620
Quote:
Since the President lives in Washington D.C., wouldn't he have to abide and follow DC law about handgun posession and carry?
The Whitehouse and much of DC is federal property and as such falls under federal jurisdiction and not that of the city.
As long as the president was on federal property or traveling from one federal property to another, city laws wouldn't apply.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old December 11, 2011, 04:24 PM   #65
Luke Flupper
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2011
Posts: 8
Presidential Seal

I would love to see a shoulder rig on the president when he was giving the "State of the Union". Whne you consider who some of the people in the room are, hell he might be well advised to be lock and loaded.

I would vote for a man on the campaign trail that was carrying! Dang straight! Like I read in an earlier post, We trust this man to make counter strike decisions (maybe first strike) certainly should trust him with handgun.

Maybe just me but I can't imagine that Dick Cheney wasn't carrying. That metalic sound when he walked had to be more than brass B_ _ _s!
Luke Flupper is offline  
Old December 11, 2011, 05:21 PM   #66
Ambishot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2011
Location: US
Posts: 274
I stand corrected... 1:24a.m. isn't the best time to post for me...

Quote:
Quote:
I know this is an older post, but in Ronald Kessler's book, In The President's Secret Service, It actually states that Reagan had a pistol on him a few times. It mentioned that he had one in a briefcase during some of the talks with Khrushchev.
Khrushchev died in 1971. Reagan was president from 1981-1989. Did they have these talks in a time machine?
Ha! My apologies, and after looking back in the book it was during his first presidential trip to the soviet union in 1988 that he had a pistol in his briefcase. Gorbachev of course was general secretary at the time.

Also, while running for his first term Reagan apparently carried.
Ambishot is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 08:46 PM   #67
blume357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2005
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 3,943
I wonder about that, considering how anti gun (at least for the common citizen) Reagan was.
blume357 is offline  
Old December 12, 2011, 10:46 PM   #68
gc70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,488
Quote:
I wonder about that, considering how anti gun (at least for the common citizen) Reagan was.
The elite have always expected privileges not available to commoners.
gc70 is offline  
Old December 13, 2011, 01:34 AM   #69
Erik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 1999
Location: America
Posts: 3,479
Yes, the President, as head of the Executive Branch, the Chief Executive, could carry if he wanted to.
__________________
Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective
Erik is offline  
Old December 14, 2011, 11:35 PM   #70
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,738
Interesting question, and the answer is a simple yes.

The practical reality, as pointed out by others, is that he's surrounded by an Army of hightly trained and heavily armed professionals.

The most important thing for the Prez is to get of the X of attack and let the pros handle it.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old December 14, 2011, 11:42 PM   #71
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,184
you're all forgetting about state laws! (He couldn't carry in New York, for instance)
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old December 15, 2011, 07:06 AM   #72
Hal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 1998
Location: Ohio USA
Posts: 7,435
Eleanore Roosevelt packed a revolver given to ther by the SS, so , I'd guess the Prez could too if he wanted.
Hal is offline  
Old December 18, 2011, 12:29 PM   #73
Prof Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2007
Posts: 643
Nancy Reagan

I remember reading somewhere that Nancy Reagan packed a 25 cal.

Live Well Be Safe
Prof Young
Prof Young is offline  
Old December 18, 2011, 12:42 PM   #74
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,679
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/us...er=rss&emc=rss

This discussion reminded me that GWB had a Glock 18 in the White House.

Was it disabled? Was it legal for him to have a handgun in DC? Was it legal for him to have a clearly not legal fully auto gun?

Interesting tid-bit. I wouldn't want a functional gun or one that could be made functional hanging up in a museum.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old December 18, 2011, 03:11 PM   #75
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,184
Washington DC is a federal enclave, so as President it probably was legal for Dubya to have a handgun there -- even a machine gun. But if he wanders out into Maryland or Virginia (etc) the state laws apply.
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14100 seconds with 7 queries