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Old September 1, 2011, 05:14 AM   #51
Bill Akins
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Here's the link to the section of the movie I cropped of the actor rotating the trigger guard that recocks the striker/hammer and advances the harmonica block on the "Mysterious Island (2005)" movie harmonica rifle, so you can see the actual moving footage of how it is supposed to work......

http://good-times.webshots.com/video...99763970MVUDIT

But......I noticed that when he rotated the trigger guard that the harmonica block did not advance. There was the same number of holes sticking out on the harmonica both before and AFTER he rotated the trigger guard. This is the same section of video that I took the still screenshots from showing the triggerguard rotating. Immediately after rotating the trigger guard, the actor was accosted by the bad pirate (his brother) and when the good guy whipped around getting the drop on his bad pirate brother, (as you can see in the still pic showing the ramrod and full length of the barrel with bands and sights), you can see that even though he had rotated the trigger guard, the harmonica block had not moved and there was still the same number of holes sticking out on the block as there had been before he rotated the triggerguard. Which further makes me think it may be a single shot dressed up to look like a harmonica rifle, or else an inoperative movie prop and they added the smoke and flash with CG. But just not sure. All this is from visual observation only.
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Old September 1, 2011, 11:20 AM   #52
pvt.Long
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The harmonica gun is a very interesting rifle. Has any one ever thought about working with the revolving rifles as a platform? Its a sound proven design
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Old September 1, 2011, 02:20 PM   #53
4V50 Gary
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The Colt Root 1855 Revolving rifle was the first weapon issued to Berdan's Sharpshooters. I'm thinking that the gas can be tapped to an operating rod to push the hammer (and rotate the cylinder) back.
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Old September 1, 2011, 03:14 PM   #54
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Quote:
The Colt Root 1855 Revolving rifle was the first weapon issued to Berdan's Sharpshooters. I'm thinking that the gas can be tapped to an operating rod to push the hammer (and rotate the cylinder) back.
A fella' named Stoner had the same thought one night in a farmhouse sometime in the 40s.
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Old September 1, 2011, 08:53 PM   #55
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OK, so after reading thru all the "developments" in this thread, I came up with another idea. Sorry, I have no drawing skills, or auto-cad to give visuals, but I'll try to explain the best I can.

Take the harmonica rifle design concept and take it into the 'crew-served muzzle loading medium machine gun"
(admittedly, I'm leaving out the fouling properties of BP, and probably a whole plethora of other issues, but hear me out)
Also, I'm using several terms very loosely to aid my explaination, don't hammer me if the terms aren't "technically" correct

Here goes, I hope this makes at least a little sense to someone
Take the harmonica rifle as a starting point, but rotate the "magazine" to the 12 o'clock position so it drops down, rather than moving side to side. Possibly even at a 45 degree angle, moving from 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock.

Either way, now add a reciprocating action similar to that of the Browning 1895 "Potato digger" MG. (I believe one of Mr. Browning's earliest autoloaders was a modified Winchester rifle using a gas operated lever-action)

The op. rod of the "digger" actuates a lever which runs along the "zig-zag" grooves in the "magazine." The action of the op. rod would push the "magazine" into it's next firing position. The action could possibly be aided by tipping to magazine forward, making it a parallelagram with angled chambers, instead of a rectangle. (think of the angle that .22 cartridges sit in a straight pistol mag.)

One variation could be to use a revolving cylinder instead of a box style harmonica "magazine"

Ignition would be using a Maynard type primer strip which would be advanced when the hammer was reset.

Mount it on a tripod. Crew it with a gunner to aim and fire it, and an assistant gunner who would reload the "magazines" similar to the Japanese Type 92.

Am I crazy?
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Old September 2, 2011, 05:55 PM   #56
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Pvt.Long wrote:
The harmonica gun is a very interesting rifle. Has any one ever thought about working with the revolving rifles as a platform? Its a sound proven design.

Quote:
4V50 Gary wrote:
The Colt Root 1855 Revolving rifle was the first weapon issued to Berdan's Sharpshooters. I'm thinking that the gas can be tapped to an operating rod to push the hammer (and rotate the cylinder) back.
Pvt. Long, when I was looking at using a modified muzzleloading Webley Fosbery style zig zag cylinder on a modified muzzleloading revolving handgun (as seen earlier in this thread), I also considered a revolving rifle such as the 1858 Remington carbine/rifle for using the same blowback technique to recock the hammer and advance the cylinder as seen in this below photoshop mockup I made that could easily transfer the same system of operation to the 1858 Remington carbine/rifle.....


But the zig zag cylinder blowback system (as with using a recoiling barrel system) also suffers from the same problem of only working when the correct powder charge load would be used to have enough force to operate the system. It could work, but you wouldn't have a lot of options for different powder charges and would have to stick to whatever charge was sufficient enough power to operate the system. But still, that doesn't mean I might not try making that blowback zig zag cylinder system on a modified 1858 Remington muzzleloading revolving handgun. It sure would be simple and less complicated than a gas powered system.

But 4V50 Gary has a good idea too, and one that has been around since Browning, Pederson and Garand and actually even before them. And a gas powered system to cock the hammer and rotate the cylinder, would allow you to have a gas adjustment where you could let more or less gas into the system so that it would operate with a variety of different grain powder charges, giving you a lot more options in powder charge loading. Of course you would have to use less fouling black powder substitute powders almost exclusively instead of using the more fouling standard black powder.

So either cylinder or harmonica block blowback, or a gas operated muzzleloading system should work for either a revolving cylinder or a harmonica block. But, with a revolving cylinder you have limitations on how many chambers you can have in the cylinder without it becoming a big circular bulky beast of a cylinder. And remember, the middle of the cylinder is wasted space because all your chambers are around the outside perimeter of the circle. Which is why I believe a horizontal harmonica block would hold more rounds with no circular bulk and no wasted space as you would have in the unused middle of a large cylinder.

Case in point, look at this 15 shot muzzleloading Hall revolving rifle below.....


Now compare the Hall revolving rifle's bulky profile to these two slimmer profile harmonica rifles...





And here's a close up pic of the bulky 15 shot Hall cylinder for the same above Hall revolving rifle. Note the huge amount of wasted space in the middle of the cylinder circle. (It would seem to make more practical sense to me, and to eliminate wasted space inside that circle, to instead just straighten out that cylinder into a flat harmonica block)......



See all that wasted space in the middle of the cylinder that isn't used because the chambers are all on the outside perimeter of the circle?
So all that other space to get to the chambers on the outside of the circle, is just wasted space adding to bulk. Whereas a flat, horizontal harmonica block wastes no space. Plus that large cylinder is obviously not easily removable because it is a closed circle and would not be as easy nor as fast to remove and insert a new cylinder as it would be to push another harmonica block into an action as the other harmonica block went out the other side. Plus even though this bulky cylinder holds 15 chambers, a harmonica block could hold many more chambers and with much less bulk because it is to the side and doesn't require a larger circle to have more chambers with wasted space in the middle of the circle as a revolving cylinder would.

For a semi-auto muzzleloading revolving handgun, not requiring a high capacity of shots, a cylinder would be okay, but for a muzzleloading rifle or one mounted on a tripod with wanting to utilize a large muzzleloading ammunition feeding device, the harmonica block would be the best choice I believe.



.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 3, 2011 at 01:26 AM.
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Old September 2, 2011, 09:51 PM   #57
Chris_B
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If nothing else, this thread is an education! That Czech single-shot is a handsome pistol by the way. I wonder if any of them made it over here...

Bill, once you make the semi-BP gun, you need to film it. Of course, there will be so much smoke once you start firing, nobody will see anything
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Old September 2, 2011, 10:31 PM   #58
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Quote:
Jo6pak wrote:
Take the harmonica rifle design concept and take it into the 'crew-served muzzle loading medium machine gun".
The "crew served muzzleloading medium machine gun" concept you mentioned, is exactly what I too visualized for a tripod mounted, harmonica block, horizontally fed, muzzleloader.


Quote:
Jo6pak wrote:
Here goes, I hope this makes at least a little sense to someone
Take the harmonica rifle as a starting point, but rotate the "magazine" to the 12 o'clock position so it drops down, rather than moving side to side. Possibly even at a 45 degree angle, moving from 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock.
I hear you Jo, using gravity to help drop (advance to next chamber) the harmonica block would aid the operating system, but I see several problems with using it vertically or at an angle as you described. Either completely vertically or at an angle, the harmonica block is going to drop downward as it advances to the next chamber. If the harmonica block is long enough to hold many chambers as I visualize, it would eventually hit the ground stopping its downward travel and the system from operating. So you could only use it from say for example, an anti-aircraft tripod that was tall enough for the harmonica block to not hit the ground before it expended all its chambers.
Also, if hung vertically or at an angle, all the full weight of the harmonica block would be on the lug engaging the zig zag slots on the harmonica block.

Whereas if a horizontal harmonica block was supported by horizontal supports with rollers, those support plate rollers would lessen the weight of the harmonica block and by the harmonica block rolling over them.....aid it in feeding into the weapon's receiver and the full weight of the harmonica block would never be fully borne by the lug engaging the zig zag slots. Kind of like a horizontal conveyor roller system supporting the harmonica block feeding into the receiver and also on the other side as the harmonica block exits. This would lessen the cantilevered weight on the lug engaging the zig zag slots, lessen weight on the receiver and thereby aid the action and make it smoother too.

Visualize the full weight of a vertical or angle fed 50 to 100 chamber harmonica block being completely just supported by the lug which engages the zig zag slots. Also visualize the vertically or angle fed harmonica block hitting the ground before it was supposed to. Not an optimum situation.

Instead visualize a horizontal harmonica block being supported on both sides of the muzzleloader's receiver by a supporting system consisting of angled braces holding horizontal plates with rollers that support the weight of the harmonica block as it rolls along the rollers into the muzzleloader's receiver and another horizontal plate with rollers is also on the other side of the receiver helping roll out the harmonica block and support its weight as it exits the weapon. Thereby no cantilevered weight stress problems.

Quote:
Jo6pak wrote:
Either way, now add a reciprocating action similar to that of the Browning 1895 "Potato digger" MG. (I believe one of Mr. Browning's earliest autoloaders was a modified Winchester rifle using a gas operated lever-action)
Yes, for his first prototype John Browning used a gas catching muzzle cup on the end of the barrel to catch the muzzle blast which actuated a lever on the front of the barrel which had a strut which went back to operate the formerly manually operated Winchester action. For his second prototype he tapped the gas into a cylinder and used a gas piston which was and is the usually used (but not always) predominant system used in semi-auto rifles and machine guns today. As in these below scanned photos and description from my well tattered book "Smith's Small Arms Of The World".....



and a description of the above rifle's operation also from my "Smith's Small Arms Of The World"......



By the way, one of the German semi-automatic rifles from WW2 used the same (many decades done before by Browning), gas trapping cup on the end of the barrel to actuate the action. If memory serves me, I think it was the Walther rifle, but can't precisely remember the name for sure.

Quote:
Jo6pak wrote:
The op. rod of the "digger" actuates a lever which runs along the "zig-zag" grooves in the "magazine." (added by Bill..."The harmonica block")
The action of the op. rod would push the "magazine" into it's next firing position.
Good idea Jo. So instead of using blowback forces to blow the muzzleloading harmonica block (or the cylinder in a revolving handgun) rearward, causing the lug to travel in the zig zag slots, you suggest instead using a gas operated lever to actuate that. Your idea also reminds me of a feed pawl advancing the cartridges in a belt fed machine gun. I like your idea Jo but I think it would work better with a horizontally fed harmonica block rather than a vertically fed one for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Also if we used gas operation, the zig zag slots on the harmonica block would be unnecessary since the harmonica block wouldn't have to blowback to advance. The gas system could actuate an internal receiver gear which advanced the harmonica block rack gear without the harmonica block having to move rearward at all. Which would be great.

There could be a straight gear rack running full length the bottom of the harmonica block, that engaged a internal receiver gear that was actuated by the movement of a gas piston. Kind of like a rack and pinion gear system on a car. No zig zag slots or harmonica block rearward movement necessary to advance to the next chamber. All done by a gas piston or direct gas impingement against an internal gear that engages the gear rack on the bottom or top of the harmonica block. Hmmm, I'm deviating a bit from your original idea of a piston actuating the zig zag slots, but your description is causing me to get some good and even better ideas here than I had before Jo. Thanks!

Quote:
Jo6pack wrote:
The action could possibly be aided by tipping the magazine forward, making it a parallelagram with angled chambers, instead of a rectangle. (think of the angle that .22 cartridges sit in a straight pistol mag.)
I can visualize what you are describing about the chambers being bored at an angle in the straight rectangular harmonica block Jo, but could you please explain a bit more how that would aid the action? I'm having trouble tracking on visualizing what you are talking about there and what the purpose of those angle bored cylinders would be for.

Quote:
Jo6pak wrote:
One variation could be to use a revolving cylinder instead of a box style harmonica "magazine"
I think that would be okay for a revolving muzzleloading handgun that I showed my idea for a blowback zig zag cylinder earlier in this thread, but for the same bulk and lack of chamber capacity I mentioned earlier in this post, I think the rectangular harmonica block would be a better choice for a high capacity muzzleloading rifle or tripod mounted high capacity full auto muzzleloader.

Quote:
Jo6pak wrote:
Ignition would be using a Maynard type primer strip which would be advanced when the hammer was reset.
I thought about using a Maynard tape primer too in these semi-auto/full auto concepts for muzzleloaders Jo. But I remember as a kid using paper roll cap guns a lot. I remember that the paper roll did not always advance under the hammer as it should have and I had to pull the roll up to get a "cap" dot under the hammer. I also remember the cap roll chamber the roll of "caps" sat in and the pawl it had to push up on the paper roll when the hammer was cocked. That takes up a lot of space and complicates the action when a percussion cap on a nipple takes up very little space by comparison and you don't have to worry about the percussion cap not advancing in line with the chamber like you would with a Maynard roll cap dot system.

Quote:
Jo6pak wrote:
Mount it on a tripod. Crew it with a gunner to aim and fire it, and an assistant gunner who would reload the "magazines" (added by Bill..."harmonica block") similar to the Japanese Type 92.
Exactly what I had in mind Jo. Just like a tray fed Hotchkiss (which the Japanese copied). We think a lot alike. See below pic of tray fed Hotchkiss which the Japanese type 92 used the same action of. Now just replace that cartridge holding tray with a muzzleloading, percussion cap fired, primitive ignition system, single piece, harmonica block. Note the droop of the cartridge tray on the Hotchkiss caused by cantilevered weight of the tray. That's why I'd put horizontal plates with roller supports on either side of the receiver on the harmonica block muzzleloader.



Quote:
Jo6pak wrote:
Am I crazy?
No, you are not crazy at all Jo. Quite the opposite. You have an inventive mind and are capable of visualizing design concepts in your head.

Keep those ideas coming!




.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 3, 2011 at 01:51 AM.
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Old September 2, 2011, 10:58 PM   #59
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Chris B wrote:
If nothing else, this thread is an education! That Czech single-shot is a handsome pistol by the way. I wonder if any of them made it over here.
Thanks Chris, it's gratifying to know I've helped educate some people on weapon history. I try . I also enjoy hearing other members ideas and concepts on rapid fire muzzleloaders.

To my knowledge that modern Czech made vertical harmonica block pistol was not made in the U.S. and that the Czech's mainly made it for export to countries where they cannot have cartridge handguns like England. There was a much earlier made harmonica pistol that the main differences between it and that Czech one is the Czech pistol used a horizontal harmonica block that was separate from the barrel, whereas the earlier pistol used a vertical harmonica block that had the barrels being integral with the harmonica block. That pistol was the German pinfire "Schuler Reform" pistol and here's a couple of pics of it....





Quote:
Chris B wrote:
Bill, once you make the semi-BP gun, you need to film it. Of course, there will be so much smoke once you start firing, nobody will see anything

Chris, if I ever built a semi-auto muzzleloader, I'd use non smoking black powder substitute. You can get the substitute black powder where it does not smoke if you want, or they have the versions that do smoke if you prefer.
Naturally for this application I'd buy the non smoke making black powder substitute. The less smoke and fouling I could avoid in a muzzleloading semi or full auto the better.


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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 3, 2011 at 05:39 AM.
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Old September 3, 2011, 12:45 AM   #60
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the thing with Bp gus is that the loading system is so delicate with the percussion caps, flintlocks and maynard tape along with the fouling that will gunk up the gun. Has any one thought about weapons that are converted to take cartridges? that would make the loading process so much easier. like getting a 1858 revolving rifle with converted cylinder, or trying a gun with the zigzag converted to cartridges? (I would personally love to see a converted le mat and a walker but thatss just me)

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Old September 3, 2011, 02:35 AM   #61
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Pvt Long wrote:
the thing with Bp guns is that the loading system is so delicate with the percussion caps, flintlocks and maynard tape along with the fouling that will gunk up the gun.
Remember, black powder substitutes are available that are tons less fouling than standard black powder and you can buy the substitutes that do not smoke too. They operate like standard black powder, but you have the option to choose the ones that do not produce smoke and they are less fouling than standard black powder. I don't see percussion caps being more delicate than a modern primer. I do agree that flintlocks and maynard tape primers may not be the best platforms for rapid fire muzzleloading weapons.

Also, thanks to another member here they clued me to West Lake Engineering who makes a muzzleloading cylinder that loads projectiles just like a standard muzzleloading cylinder, but....it uses smokeless NITRO powder instead of gunk inducing black powder. It also uses shotgun primers instead of percussion caps to set off the charge.

Now would those modern shotgun primers make ATF say it didn't use a "primitive ignition system" wherein they would classify it as a FIREARM instead of a muzzleloader?.....Unknown. It's still a muzzleloader.....just using nitro smokeless powder instead of black powder and shotgun primers.

Go to this link for West Lake Engineering and read the description just above the 2nd picture, then look at the 2nd picture showing the cylinder that you load the ball into the front, and it has a hole in the back of the cylinder that you load a shotgun primer into, then you put the separate back section onto the back of the cylinder that has the firing pins for the shotgun primers on the back of the cylinder. But it is NOT a typical conversion cylinder since it does not use cartridges. It just allows you to use shotgun primers in place of standard percussion caps and smokeless NITRO powder that usually is a big no no for pressure in a standard black powder cylinder. These cylinders are made to take the smokeless nitro pressures. But they are still muzzleloading cylinders and not cartridge cylinders. Ingenious concept and they are in production.

http://www.westlakeengineering.com/4640/4694.html

Quote:
Pvt Long wrote:
Has any one thought about weapons that are converted to take cartridges? that would make the loading process so much easier. like getting a 1858 revolving rifle with converted cylinder, or trying a gun with the zigzag converted to cartridges? (I would personally love to see a converted le mat and a walker but thatss just me
The problem with that is if anyone manufactured or made even for their own use, a cartridge gun, that gun then becomes A FIREARM, under the National Firearms Act (N.F.A.) and subject to all the federal and state laws regarding FIREARMS. Just like the 1872 open top CARTRIDGE revolvers are FIREARMS and cannot be mailed directly to you, but must be mailed through an FFL. Just like a muzzleloading revolver that has a conversion cartridge cylinder installed in it cannot be mailed to you but must go through an FFL. You must mail the conversion cartridge cylinder separately from the muzzleloading revolver for it to be legal. MUZZLELOADERS are Federally unregulated and most except for a handful of states do not regulate muzzleloaders either.

You can certainly legally make your own FIREARM for your own use, and you can legally make a semi-auto firearm for your own use. If you manufacture a FIREARM for public sale, you are regulated. Unlike manufacturing a muzzleloader for public use wherein you are not regulated. But you cannot legally make or manufacture a full auto firearm or make one even for your own use, unless you are a Special Occupational Taxpayer licensee (SOT) and even then you can only have the full auto registered to you and only as long as you maintain your expensive SOT license (wherein you first have to have an FFL license before you can even get an SOT license)....or you can as an SOT only transfer it to another SOT licensee. This is because since 1986 no new full auto firearms can be made to sell to the general public and the public can only buy and register what full auto firearms are already in existence in the U.S.

A cartridge revolver has already been made to use a zig zag cylinder. The Webley Fosbery and I believe the more modern Mateba revolver also uses the same system.

But like yourself, I'd also like to see a muzzleloading (non cartridge) semi-auto 1858 Remy carbine and a Walker or Le Mat in semi-auto too! Keep the ideas coming.


.
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"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 3, 2011 at 04:50 AM.
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Old September 3, 2011, 10:37 AM   #62
OutlawJoseyWales
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Bill,
I've enjoyed the read, fine research.

Sometime within the last year or so, I saw a Homemade "gatling gun-ish thing" for sale on Gunbroker. I didn't pay attention to it, but now wish I would've. Looked like a gatling.
The only thing I remember is that they called the ammo for use in it-small percussion tubes. At least I think so. Have you seen this?

OJW
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Old September 3, 2011, 03:03 PM   #63
Bill Akins
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Thanks Josey.

No sorry, I didn't see that particular Gatling on gunbroker.


.
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"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old September 3, 2011, 05:40 PM   #64
arcticap
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The harmonica magazines live on for use in 5-shot semi-auto rapid fire air pistols that are made by several European companies.
Here's a photo that shows a Feinwerkbau CO2 model with harmonica magazines:

http://www.strellis.com/images/airrifle/c55_all.jpg
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Old September 3, 2011, 06:42 PM   #65
Bill Akins
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Arcticap, do you have any knowledge of how they advance the harmonica block in those semi-auto air guns? I'd be interested in learning what method they use to do that to see if it could transfer over to muzzleloaders.


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Old September 3, 2011, 09:38 PM   #66
arcticap
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The FWB models have undergone changes over the years as they introduced new improved models. There's a page with schematics and manuals for the rapid fire models in their order of introduction C5, C55, C55 (after serial #5000), C55P, and the latest C58.

http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modu...p5?cPageId=231

P58: http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modu....php5?id=565-0

C55P: http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modu....php5?id=578-0

C55 Post #5000: http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modu....php5?id=576-0

C55: http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modu....php5?id=577-0

C5: http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modu....php5?id=577-0

Other companies that make very similar models include Walther and Styer.

Last edited by arcticap; September 3, 2011 at 09:51 PM.
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Old September 3, 2011, 10:18 PM   #67
Bill Akins
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Thanks for the links Arcticap. I read all the links except for the first one which wouldn't open. There are exploded schematics, but nothing in the way of explanation of how the harmonica bar advances. But thanks for your effort and trying anyway, appreciate it.



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Old September 4, 2011, 11:29 AM   #68
Jo6pak
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Thanks for the comments and the critizism, Bill. I'll try to address some of the critiques, and explain my train of thought a bit better

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
Visualize the full weight of a vertical or angle fed 50 to 100 chamber harmonica block being completely just supported by the lug which engages the zig zag slots. Also visualize the vertically or angle fed harmonica block hitting the ground before it was supposed to. Not an optimum situation.
I hadn't considered the weight issue, good point. I guess I was thinking more or a 15-30 round harmonica block, which in my simple estimation (using .50cal. as a basis) would be ~12-24" long. But weight, I imagine could still be a factor.

My main reason for making the harmonica block vertical is to align it better with the operating system but, after re-thinking it, this adaption is not really neccesary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
By the way, one of the German semi-automatic rifles from WW2 used the same (many decades done before by Browning), gas trapping cup on the end of the barrel to actuate the action. If memory serves me, I think it was the Walther rifle, but can't precisely remember the name for sure.
Walther Gew. 41(W)
"Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" by Ian Hogg
...The Walther Gew.41 was adopted, a gas-operated rifle using the rather crude Bang system in which gas was defelected by a muzzle cap to turn back and strike as annular piston around the barrel and so move the piston rod...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
Good idea Jo. So instead of using blowback forces to blow the muzzleloading harmonica block (or the cylinder in a revolving handgun) rearward, causing the lug to travel in the zig zag slots, you suggest instead using a gas operated lever to actuate that...
...Also if we used gas operation, the zig zag slots on the harmonica block would be unnecessary since the harmonica block wouldn't have to blowback to advance. The gas system could actuate an internal receiver gear which advanced the harmonica block rack gear without the harmonica block having to move rearward at all. Which would be great.
Yes, that would be much simpler. I tend to get a little exotic with my ideas sometime. (Blame my dyslexia) I envisioned all the operating elements to be externally mounted on top of the receiver. Now the more I think of it, that is an emmensely complicated and fragile way find function

Quote:
Kind of like a rack and pinion gear system on a car. No zig zag slots or harmonica block rearward movement necessary to advance to the next chamber. All done by a gas piston or direct gas impingement against an internal gear that engages the gear rack on the bottom or top of the harmonica block.
Now, I'm seeing it.
In my idea the harmonica block would not recoil itself, it would be the operating rods movement along the zig-zag in the harmonica block that would initiate the axial movement. Kinda the opposite of the Webley-Fosberg action. But again, I see this is overly complicating the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
Hmmm, I'm deviating a bit from your original idea of a piston actuating the zig zag slots, but your description is causing me to get some good and even better ideas here than I had before Jo. Thanks!
No problem iith a little deviation. As with any mechanical design project it's all about evolution of the idea. Invention is less about finding out what works, and more about eliminating all the things that don't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Atkins
I can visualize what you are describing about the chambers being bored at an angle in the straight rectangular harmonica block Jo, but could you please explain a bit more how that would aid the action? I'm having trouble tracking on visualizing what you are talking about there and what the purpose of those angle bored cylinders would be for.
Man, I wish I had visuals to help me explain myself
If you've followned my crazy concept this far you may also see where I trying to go with this. I thought that canting the harmonica block forward would assist in transfering the rearwad movement of the "op-rod" to lateral movement of the harmonica block.
Imagine a pump action shotgun. The action bars on the sides of the pump ride in the zig-zag cuts on the harmonica block, which moves it laterally as the action is cycled. By canting the harmonica block, it would reduce the torque on the block and maybe aid reliability.


As for ignition... So you are having the percussion caps already fixed to the harmonical block, and not a seperate part of the action?
I overlooked that part and again overthought it
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Old September 5, 2011, 12:01 AM   #69
Bill Akins
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.

Thanks again Jo for your ideas. For my zig zag slots, blowback cylinder, semi-auto muzzleloading revolver concept mockup, I think the limited weight of the cylinder would allow it to have enough power for blowback forces to work fine with the zig zag slots system (ala Webley Fosbery) as in my mockup from earlier in this thread.......



But in reading some of your ideas Jo, I suddenly thought upon a rack and pinion gear system actuated by gas instead of a zig zag slot blowback, reciprocating harmonica block. I realized that a very large capacity harmonica block on a tripod mounted muzzleloader would be too heavy to rely on blowback to move the heavy harmonica block rearward and advance it via zig zag slots. That kind of system would be fine for a six shot revolver but not for one using a long, hi capacity, heavy harmonica block.

I realized that for THAT kind of weapon with a very high capacity and heavy harmonica block, a gas piston or even direct impingement of gas to actuate an internal gear that would interact with a gear rack running along the length of the harmonica block to advance it, (a rack and pinion system actuated by gas) would mean the hi capacity, heavy, harmonica block would not have to move rearward and would be a much simpler and better system to use.

I did some more mockup work in photoshop. It's very crude but gives the general idea of what I'm seeing. Nothing like a picture to eliminate a thousand words.

Roller conveyor supporting high capacity, one piece, muzzleloading, percussion cap fired, harmonica block. Gas operated operating an internal gear that interacts with a straight gear rack along the full length of the harmonica block. This is just a very crude rendition and could be changed to suit the design. The supports for the roller conveyor are extremely crude. But you can get the general idea. In reality they would be very ornate Victorian, "Jules Vernian", "Captain Nemo" type looking supports. Supporting the weight of the long hi capacity muzzleloading harmonica block as it feeds and also exits the receiver.



Although I think gas operation would be a good method for this type of muzzleloading hi capacity harmonica block concept, you could also use a completely manual hand cranked system instead of gas operation. As you no doubt realize, this would weigh a whole lot less than any Gatling and still have a high cyclic rate of fire but be completely a MUZZLELOADING antique weapon not regulated under the NFA, instead of a Gatling which if it uses a cartridge the Gatling is regulated under the NFA as a firearm, although a Gatling being manually crank fired is not classified nor regulated as a machine gun. With no gas tube on the barrel, that would enable a water jacket to be installed eliminating the necessity for multiple barrels for cooling......as in this mockup....



I appreciate the comments, thoughts and ideas. Keep them coming. Thanks.




.
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"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 5, 2011 at 02:28 AM.
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Old September 10, 2011, 12:35 AM   #70
Bill Akins
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I've been thinking about something that didn't occur to me before.
In thinking about the cylinder recoiling in my below rendering I may have overlooked something....



I'm thinking that I may have overlooked the possibility of when the cylinder recoiled to the rear, that the projectiles in the chambers might come forward away from the powder charge. I'm not sure if the squeezing of them into the chamber where they cut a ring would be sufficient to keep them from being forced forward under the cylinder recoiling. I know the Webley Fosbery didn't have problems with its projectiles coming out of their cartridge cases, but then perhaps they had a heavy crimp on the cases, really cutting into the projectile precluding it from coming out. And a heavy crimp on a case digging into the projectile would hold that projectile better than just chamber wall tension would on a percussion revolver. Know what I mean?

One thing going in my favor with the spring loaded zig zag cylinder, is that for one....it is spring loaded which would slow down its recoil. Another thing is the zig zag slots would also slow down the cylinder's recoil just like the inclined lugs on a Steyr Hahn 1912 pistol's barrel's lugs slows down the recoil of that barrel, making the Steyr Hahn actually a delayed blowback pistol rather than a locked barrel like a Colt 1911. The Steyr Hahn also used a very powerful 9mm Steyr cartridge which was the most powerful 9mm cartridge used by any combatants in WW1. So that delayed blowback system worked pretty good for the powerful Steyr Hahn pistol (I used to have and shoot one). Which makes me think the spring behind the cylinder and the zig zag slots slowing the cylinder down as it recoiled might have a similar effect of delaying the blowback of the cylinder enough to preclude dislodging the projectiles in the other chambers.....maybe. It's all theory at this point.

Another thing I have been thinking about is going a completely different direction with the design without using a zig zag cylinder that recoils. But instead sticking with a standard cylinder and just increasing the hole diameter in the nipples among other things. Around 40 years ago without the knowledge I have today, on a few occasions I overloaded my first Confederate round barrel, brass frame, 1851 copy, with so much black powder, that there was just barely room for the ball in the chamber. On more than one occasion I found after firing that my hammer had recoiled to the half cock position. Luckily I had no damage to the revolver.

But those incidents of the force from the nipples half cocking the hammer way back then make me think. Perhaps I could drill out the hammer channel on a '58 Remy, so that I could weld a small cup on the hammer face that would allow a cap on an enlarged nipple hole to blow back and just for a fraction of an instant, some gas along with the force of the cap itself, would be caught in the hammer cup, causing the hammer to go to full cock and the bottom of the hammer cup would be inclined and the side of the cup cut out, so that the cap would be expelled to the right as the hammer was being cocked. Almost like a direct gas impingement system but slightly different.

If memory serves me, it was either Pederson or Garand who was experimenting on operating a semi-auto rifle using only primer setback, where the primer setback a very short distance into a cutout in the bolt face, but without actually coming all the way out of the cartridge But then I wonder if the cylinder pawl would take the stress of being operated that quickly/violently, without any spring behind the cylinder or zig zag slots to slow the operation down. It might also cause the cylinder to rotate faster than the bolt could drop to lock it, causing over rotation.

The advantages would be that I wouldn't have to do too much modification to the revolver and I wouldn't have to have a short cylinder so it could recoil rearward. The disadvantages would be the stress imparted to the cylinder pawl and what problems that might cause, along with possible over rotation of the cylinder due to the speed that it would be rotated that might be faster than the bolt could drop to lock it. See what I mean?

In both the recoiling cylinder (ala Webley Fosbery) system, and in the stationary cylinder with drilled out nipple holes with hammer cup system, the operation of either system would be dependent on a specific powder load to make sure that in the recoiling cylinder system, that the cylinder did not recoil with undue force. And in the stationary cylinder with drilled out nipple holes with hammer cup system, it would be the same thing to make sure that the hammer was not cocked with too much force. So a specific load would have to be found with experimentation that worked best for either system. Starting with a light load first and then working up. Of course the diameter of the drilled out nipple holes would be a factor too in that specific system.

Another thing I could do would be to get a "Forester tap-O-cap" punch system to make my own percussion caps. That way I could make the caps out of slightly thicker copper or even steel. Then maybe that would prevent the cap from splitting on detonation (as it frequently does) and instead of having to build a cup on the face of my hammer, the non split cap itself would act as a cup, which by being un-split, would hold the gas pressure better for the cap to blow to the rear and re-cock the hammer. That sure would be simpler than putting a cup on the hammer face. Then all I'd have to do would be to relieve some metal off the upper right of the recoil shield on the '58 Remy, and angle the face of the hammer or extended striker so that the cap ejected out the right side. Actually that would work with either the zig zag recoiling cylinder system or the just blowing back of the cap system.

Also with either system the lockwork would have to be modified to where the hammer would stay cocked after the first shot before you released the trigger. Then when the trigger was released, the trigger would reset and functioning it again would drop the hammer. Otherwise the hammer would just automatically go back forward after each shot. Which on the cap only blowing back system would cause it to be a six shot full auto, and on the recoiling zig zag cylinder system would cause the hammer to follow the cylinder forward and either go full auto, or not have enough inertia to pop the cap because it followed the cylinder forward instead of dead falling against a cap.

Just trying to work the best design concepts out in my head. Like the old adage says...."measure twice, cut once".

Thoughts?





.
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Last edited by Bill Akins; September 10, 2011 at 05:21 AM.
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Old September 10, 2011, 07:14 AM   #71
Bill Akins
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Although this was the first forum I posted about my semi-auto muzzleloading ideas, since then I've posted them at a steampunk forum. Originally I didn't think they would turn out to be "steamy" but then I realized they were very "steampunk" style, so I posted them there too to get ideas from the members and boy did that work out well with one member.

At the Steampunk forum at Brass Goggles, after he saw my semi-auto muzzleloading revolver design concept rendering, fellow member Otto Von Pifka came up with a stroke of genius idea for my semi-auto revolver concept.
Here's what he drew and wrote.....

Otto Von Pifka wrote:
"I didn't draw in the frame and the reloading lever. thinking about it, the lever could retain the plug in the front of the gas cylinder to simplify things."




and here's what I responded to him.....

"Ah! I see. You postulate using an elongated, modified, cylinder arbor pin to double as a gas piston to cock the hammer. Brilliant!
That is a great idea Otto. By making the arbor pin/gas piston spring loaded it would return back forward after cocking the hammer.
Now how could I utilize that piston to also rotate the cylinder without the cylinder having to have zig zag slots and recoil rearward?
Ah! I've got it. The arbor pin/gas piston could have spring loaded lug projections on it that would pivot backward but not forward. The hole in the cylinder for the arbor could have corresponding spiral slots cut into it so that the lugs on the arbor pin/gas piston, were just barely engaging the spiral slots in the central cylinder hole. Then when the gas piston went rearward to cock the hammer, it would also advance the cylinder. Then when the arbor pin/gas piston went back forward again due to its spring decompressing, the lugs sticking out of the arbor would fold back and pass through the central hole of the cylinder. Obviating the need for a zig zag slotted recoiling cylinder, and thus making a longer standard length cylinder possible since it doesn't need space to recoil to advance to the next chamber. Hmmm, very interesting Otto. Kudos and thanks for that idea, that was sheer genius on your part. That possibility never occurred to me.
Do you have any ideas for advancing the cylinder to the next chamber using that arbor pin/gas piston that might be better than the one I proposed with the folding lugs on the arbor pin?"


How about y'all here, anyone have any other ideas for using that arbor pin/gas piston that could cock the hammer, to also advance the cylinder in any better method than the one I conceived of the one way folding/pivoting lugs on the arbor pin engaging spiral slots in the central cylinder hole?

I like this idea. All this would require would be to drill a gas tap on the barrel, weld a gas cylinder to align with it, make a elongated arbor pin that doubled as a gas piston that had one way folding lugs in the pin that engaged spiral cut slots in the cylinder's central arbor hole to advance the cylinder to the next chamber. Otto came up with using the arbor pin as a gas piston and I came up with the one way folding lugs on the arbor pin engaging spiral slots inside the cylinder's center hole. A gas operated, semi-auto, muzzleloading revolver. Wouldn't that just be a hoot? Using pyrodex plus p it wouldn't gum up the gas cylinder.



.
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Old September 11, 2011, 03:48 PM   #72
Stephanie B
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Quote:
Now how could I utilize that piston to also rotate the cylinder without the cylinder having to have zig zag slots and recoil rearward?
Ah! I've got it. The arbor pin/gas piston could have spring loaded lug projections on it that would pivot backward but not forward. The hole in the cylinder for the arbor could have corresponding spiral slots cut into it so that the lugs on the arbor pin/gas piston, were just barely engaging the spiral slots in the central cylinder hole. Then when the gas piston went rearward to cock the hammer, it would also advance the cylinder.
Sounds overly complex to me. If the arbor pin/gas piston is pushing back on the hammer, then why not just utilize the single-action mechanism to also rotate the cylinder?
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Old September 11, 2011, 06:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
Bill Akins wrote:
Now how could I utilize that piston to also rotate the cylinder without the cylinder having to have zig zag slots and recoil rearward?
Ah! I've got it. The arbor pin/gas piston could have spring loaded lug projections on it that would pivot backward but not forward. The hole in the cylinder for the arbor could have corresponding spiral slots cut into it so that the lugs on the arbor pin/gas piston, were just barely engaging the spiral slots in the central cylinder hole. Then when the gas piston went rearward to cock the hammer, it would also advance the cylinder.
Quote:
Stephanie B wrote:
Sounds overly complex to me. If the arbor pin/gas piston is pushing back on the hammer, then why not just utilize the single-action mechanism to also rotate the cylinder?
Early on, I thought about doing exactly that Stephanie. And that MIGHT work. But I'm afraid the violent. abrupt force of a gas piston directly against the hammer might be too much without some sort of delay, and cause the cylinder pawl to break and or cause the cylinder to rotate so rapidly that it might overtravel faster than the bolt could drop to lock it in place.

On cartridge semi-autos (unless they are low powered straight blowbacks) you have to slow down the extraction of the cartridge (slow initial extraction) so that the cannelure (rim/groove) of the cartridge case isn't ripped away. The same is true on a semi-auto action using a sufficiently powerful load. You have to slow the action down or risk breaking parts.
If you don't slow the operation down in this instance, it could break delicate cylinder pawl, or wear its end and the ratchet on the rear of the cylinder and also cause that too fast over rotation of the cylinder I was worried about too.

For instance the Steyr Hahn model 1912 semi-auto pistol using a delayed blowback system for it to operate. The Steyr Hahn has big angled lugs on its barrel that ride in corresponding angled slots milled into the frame. The frictional interface of those lugs causes the operation to slow down and also partially rotates the barrel. Also known as "retarded blowback" or "delayed blowback". This enables that pistol to operate without the action being so violently abrupt that it breaks parts, rips the cannelure off the case, or won't operate at all. See the big angled lugs on the Steyr Hahn's barrel and the angled slots on the frame here.....



When I get around to experimenting on making a semi-auto muzzleloader out of a old beater 1858 Remington revolver, the first thing I will do is drill out the nipples and try to get that extra gas force to blow the caps back to fully cock the hammer which as you noted would also rotate the cylinder. It is possible that the cylinder pawl and cylinder ratchet may take the stress without breakage or galling, and it is possible that the cylinder may not overtravel faster than the bolt can drop to lock it. But I have a high probability of fear that I will encounter problems. But it's still worth an initial experimental try to see.

Then if I find that not slowing down the operation of directly blowing caps back against the hammer to operate the revolver doesn't work and is too violent and abrupt, then I will also know that the same would be true of non delayed piston acting against the hammer. In that case I would have to go back to my ideas for slowing down the operation using some form of delaying the operation of the system so it isn't so violent and abrupt.



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"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 11, 2011 at 07:04 PM.
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Old September 11, 2011, 06:40 PM   #74
Stephanie B
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Yes, but you're not talking about a delayed blowback or short recoil action. You're mulling over a gas piston. Isn't it going to depend on how much gas you allow into the piston's expansion chamber?

For instance, I have an adjustable gas port on my Garand. I can set that between "all of the gas into the expansion chamber works the operating rod" to "it all gets vented out and the operating rod doesn't budge".

You've got the mass of the arbor/piston, the mass of the hammer, the rotational mass of the cylinder and the resistance of the mainspring, all working against the gas coming into the piston. The key would be to just admit a little bit, just enough to move the hammer back to full cock.

Downside is that once you figure out how to do all that, you're kind of limited to one level of power for your loads, as increasing power would slam the beejeez out of the gun and decreasing power would mean the hammer didn't go all the way back. Not sure where you could install a coil spring to slow down the piston if you wanted to.

Nice mental exercise, but maybe there is a reason why self-cocking revolvers haven't been practical.
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Old September 11, 2011, 10:04 PM   #75
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Quote:
Stephanie B wrote:
Yes, but you're not talking about a delayed blowback or short recoil action. You're mulling over a gas piston. Isn't it going to depend on how much gas you allow into the piston's expansion chamber?

For instance, I have an adjustable gas port on my Garand. I can set that between "all of the gas into the expansion chamber works the operating rod" to "it all gets vented out and the operating rod doesn't budge".

You've got the mass of the arbor/piston, the mass of the hammer, the rotational mass of the cylinder and the resistance of the mainspring, all working against the gas coming into the piston. The key would be to just admit a little bit, just enough to move the hammer back to full cock.
I once owned a semi-auto .44 Ruger carbine that had an adjustable gas port so that I could increase or decrease the amount of gas. I also have an M1A that like your Garand, has a gas cutoff, but that just cuts off the gas completely rather than gives different setting where it can be decreased or increased.

But what concerns me is that even if I made a gas cylinder adjustable, by decreasing the gas, it still might be too violent and abrupt a movement against the parts even if it didn't have enough force on a decreased setting to actually cock the hammer all the way. It's not the amount of gas pressure I'm as worried about, as it is the speed at which the parts will operate under gas pressure. Even under lowered gas pressure. Even if I was able to carefully dial in the exact precise amount of gas just barely necessary to
cock the hammer, I fear it would still be too violent and abrupt a movement on the parts.
That's why I'm trying to figure a way to slow down the movement of those parts.

But you still could be right Stephanie that all I need is to decrease the gas pressure and if I was lucky, the parts might work okay even with the less amount of gas operating them at a high speed. The only way to find that out would be to experiment.

Quote:
Stephanie B wrote:
Downside is that once you figure out how to do all that, you're kind of limited to one level of power for your loads, as increasing power would slam the beejeez out of the gun and decreasing power would mean the hammer didn't go all the way back. Not sure where you could install a coil spring to slow down the piston if you wanted to.
The amount of gas allowed into the gas cylinder could be made adjustable like on my old Ruger .44 semi-auto carbine was. Then I could vary my powder loads and still dial in the amount of gas I needed for the system to work. Finding a place to install a coil spring to rebound the piston or resist its rearward movement won't be a problem. But I like how you think Stephanie.
It's hard to find many guys who understand this stuff. Even rarer to find a woman who does. I didn't mean that to sound condescending, but as a compliment.

Quote:
Stephanie B wrote:Nice mental exercise, but maybe there is a reason why self-cocking revolvers haven't been practical.
There could be other reasons Stephanie. The Webley Fosbery semi-auto revolver was both practical and successful. The Mateba semi-auto revolver is another one. I think that's it's not that self cocking revolvers aren't practical, but that only several models have ever been manufactured. I believe that's because "people buy what builders build, and builders build what people buy". And people buy what they are used to and resist change and new systems.

Back in the days of the very first BP revolvers, they were manually cocked.
Then when those revolvers became cartridge loaders, they were still manually cocked (until the Webley Fosbery). So for many generations now people have been used to (and buying) manually cocking revolvers. Then the Webley Fosbery comes out that no one is familiar with and although the RAC issued it to their pilots in WW1, it never really caught on with the general public. Chiefly I believe because people resist change and anything they are not used to. People were used to manually cocked revolvers, just as we are only used to manually cocked muzzleloading revolvers today. It's all we've ever known.

Now today that muzzleloading revolvers are obsolete, most people chiefly shoot them to enjoy the history and engaging in something from the past. Hence the activity in reenactments and Cowboy action shooting. Not too many people are interested in finding a way to make an obsolete muzzleloading revolver work semi-automatically. It wasn't done back then, so they may think why bother doing it now since it's obsolete.

But I think it would be cool to have a semi-auto muzzleloading revolver. It would be an interesting piece of machinery. And now is the time to do it since today we have less fouling black powder substitutes that would enable things like gas pistons on them to operate without fouling up.

I'm just searching and trying to figure out what would be the best system design to use. A zig zag cylinder with elongated firing pin tappet that the zig zag friction system would delay the movement of? Or using drilled out nipples for direct cap/gas blowback against the hammer? Or using a gas piston? All while trying to figure out how those systems would affect the speed, wear and breakage of parts. It's a mechanical thing and I know it can be done. Just trying to figure out what is the best method to use. I can't be cutting up multiple '58 Remys trying to find that out, so I have to figure out the best way to go before experimenting.

Here's another interesting concept that a friend of mine named Akumabito from the Netherlands that also belongs to the Brass Goggles steampunk forum posted, that uses and expands more on the other member Otto's arbor pin/gas piston concept that I posted earlier here. Akumabito proposes I use the frame area as a gas cylinder while using Otto's basic arbor pin/gas piston.
Not a bad idea. It could work but would require drilling up though the bottom of the frame into the barrel, then plugging the frame where I had to drill through what would become the gas cylinder. His gas port is WAY to large but this is just his concept rendering.

Also the lugs of his arbor pin/piston would have to be removed and the arbor pin/piston shortened considerable. Plus he shows the frame hole for the arbor pin being factory closed in its front when it is not. So that open end would have to be threaded and plugged hence the need to remove the arbor pin lugs. The advantage of this concept would be that the rammer could still be used and outwardly for the most part, there would be no indication that the revolver was semi-auto or had been modified. To remove the cylinder the plug would have to be removed from the front of the gas cylinder and the arbor pin/piston pushed from the rear so it came out the front in order to remove the cylinder. Actually a great discrete looking concept if delaying the speed of the operation isn't necessary. Except for the missing arbor pin lugs people would hardly notice anything different just looking at it.



Then here's my concerns I wrote back to him on his rendering at Brass Goggles steampunk forum.....



I also wrote my concerns on Otto's earlier rendering too at Brass Goggles.
Otto's concept is good too and he was the first one to theorize using the arbor pin as a gas operated piston. Only his concept hangs a gas cylinder on the barrel which would cause a trimming of the rammer to make the rammer so thin, as to be unable to be used. I added the rough frame outline in yellow and the red text and arrow to Otto's rendering....



In response to my concerns, Akumabito proposed his rendering of this.....



I haven't had a chance to analyze that "AK" '58 Remy concept of his adequately yet. I did notice he extended the hammer up for the piston to push against. According to him, no mods to the rest of the revolver, no gas hole to drill and nothing in the way of the rammer. Has possibilities, but gosh, I still can't make up my mind if it's cool looking or ugly .

I'm also a little worried about using the gas piston in either Otto's or Akumibito's renderings. Imagine if the part of the gas piston that keeps it from coming out the rear broke and it somehow deflected and got past your cocked hammer. Zing! Right into your face or eye. That's why I still like my idea for utilizing the zig zag cylinder of the Webley Fosbery system. Plus that one has a delay for the operation built in.

Continuing to research.

Thoughts?


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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 12, 2011 at 06:06 AM.
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