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Old June 27, 2011, 09:42 AM   #1
AirborneMosinFan
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Someone pryed open my back door I grabbed my 20 gauge

This morning at about 0:43 I was awoken by my dogs barking in the house I spang for the safe and pulled out my single shot 20 guage and a fist full of multi purpose game/target rounds. I grabbed these rounds and gun to reduce the damage I would have to do to my house and I though to avoid an upplanned death of a cat, dog or fiancé. Not sure if I was fortunate or not the perp went right back out the door when he heard me coming but I was wondering how effective those rounds would have been on a Human. I don't think they would have passed through the walls, this leads me to my other question, would 00 buck from a 20 guage or a 12 gauge pass through two layers of dry wall and insulation? I do own a tactical 12 gauge, does anyone make a round that will mess up a dirtbag without me needing to rebuild a wall?
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Old June 27, 2011, 10:21 AM   #2
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I keep my 12ga/26" Remington 1100 skeet gun fully stoked with #7-1/2 target loads! Hope I never have to use 'em, other than for orange clay...
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Old June 27, 2011, 11:09 AM   #3
Lee Lapin
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does anyone make a round that will mess up a dirtbag without me needing to rebuild a wall?

Hi, neighbor...

Kinda hard to think of anything that won't go through drywall, but that is still able to stop a determined attacker. I can fairly easily put a fist through drywall, long as there isn't a wall stud there .

There have been endless discussions/arguments over what shotgun ammunition to use for home defense on this and other forums for years. Considerations are different for everyone who has to make the decision. It all depends on who else is in the home, what's between you and neighbors, etc. What you decide needs to be based on your own situation and the requirements and limitations your environment/condition/situation impose.

At very close range, birdshot may well stop an attack and can certainly be lethal. I've seen the results as an EMT. But small birdshot has a tendency to produce large shallow wounds without penetrating deeply enough to reach vital areas as ranges get just a bit longer. Also, small birdshot may not penetrate well where even relatively minor barriers are present - heavy clothing, an upraised arm, etc. And what if your particular home invader decides to duck behind the sofa and start popping rounds at you instead of beating feet when challenged?

IMHO the absolute first thing you need to start considering is a home defense plan. I know that no plan survives first contact intact, but that's no reason not to work on one so that you can evaluate and improve your defensive situation. The best guide I know of is the NRA's class called BASICS OF PERSONAL PROTECTION IN THE HOME. Take a look at http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx to find out (by entering your zip code) if anyone is teaching this class near you.

Failing that, you can see the classroom portion of the class on DVD -http://materials.nrahq.org/go/product.aspx?productid=ES%2026840 and/or get a copy of the textbook - http://materials.nrahq.org/go/produc...tid=ES%2026828 .

hth,

lpl
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Old June 27, 2011, 11:12 AM   #4
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I accidently shot one of my uncles 12 gauge shotguns with a slug in it at my grandmas house in the closet cause I thought it was empty and it went through the wall and came out the front porch through trim I noticed the exit damage wasnt nearly that bad or even the entrance bullethole
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Old June 27, 2011, 12:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
a fist full of multi purpose game/target rounds.

how effective those rounds would have been on a Human
A little vague since we don't know what your multi-purpose rounds were or what kind of shooter you are but a definite answer would be that if you had shot and your marksmanship was good you would have hurt him. How bad depends on what you shot him with, how far away he was when you shot him and where you shot him.

Would they go through walls? If they were powerful enough to kill game then unless you have stone or brick walls or live in a concrete house your rounds could and would go through a wall. That is why we have endless debates about what gun, what barrel length, what gauge, what size shot/slug etc.

Only reliable non-wall tearing round I am personally aware of outside of custom made rounds are the bean bag rounds. Even they will put a dent in dry wall so whatever you use try really hard to not miss.

Next time grab a light instead of a hand full of shells. It helps if you can identify friend or foe and if not foe they or it would appreciate not being shot. If it is foe it makes things simpler for you if they are temporarily blinded while you take aim. Boogermen rambling in the dark like the dark, take that away from them.
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Old June 27, 2011, 01:09 PM   #6
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I would be less concerned about damage to my wall or cat and more of the damage that could occur to my person because my choice of ammunition was less than adequate to stop the threat.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old June 27, 2011, 01:21 PM   #7
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I prefer shotguns most of the time, but, when I really want to grab a life ender, I go for my 4" 686 L-frame!! Stoked with 125g JHP's...

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Old June 27, 2011, 01:27 PM   #8
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when I really want to grab a life preserver, I go for my 4" 686 L-frame!!

There...I fixed that for you.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old June 27, 2011, 01:41 PM   #9
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Bird and target shot are effective at stopping and yet the pellet holes in the walls are small enough that they don't create a huge cavity in the wallas and, you can cover the holes with white tooth paste.
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Old June 27, 2011, 06:58 PM   #10
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I share walls with neighbors and had the same thoughts as you - I pack #4 buckshot.

Although I'd prefer 00 based on books and folks on the forum here, #4 is sufficient for the short distances in my home (I don't live in a bowling alley), yet hopefully won't over-penetrate.

If for some crazy reason it got outside and distance truly mattered, switch to slug. You could get something to carry the extra shells on your sgun and practice with some snap caps.

Good to hear the end result...dogs are useful.
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Old June 27, 2011, 07:12 PM   #11
hardworker
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no 4 has been killing deer for many years. Before the internet, it was very good at it. A high power goose load would do it to. No need to overthink.
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Old June 28, 2011, 12:14 AM   #12
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Bird and target shot are effective at stopping and yet the pellet holes in the walls are small enough that they don't create a huge cavity in the wallas and, you can cover the holes with white tooth paste.
At 10-15 feet, you'll most likely get a fist sized hole in the wall. If you miss the target, there will be a hole in the wall and you can injure your neighbor if you hit them. It more than likely wouldn't be fatal, but you will more than likely end up in court.

If you have the means, make a couple of samll (2'x2') "wall panels" out of 2x4 and dry wall and fire bird shot at 3,5, and 7 yards into them. See what damage you do at household / apartment distances. I guarantee a little toothpaste won't cover it up.
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Old June 28, 2011, 12:21 AM   #13
C Philip
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I'm curious as to why you opted for a single shot 20ga when you have a "tactical" 12ga. Also, any round sufficiently powerful to stop a bad guy will easily penetrate several walls in a house. Replacing some dry wall when your home is being invaded isn't something to be worrying about.
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Old June 28, 2011, 01:15 AM   #14
AirborneMosinFan
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Why I picked the 20 guage

I guess u was just going for the rounds I knew wouldn't blow the crap out of my house, and I wanted something that wouldn't blow out my ears, now I kindve wish I had made a better plan. Today I bought a side round holder or whatever you want to call it and also purchased bird shot in 12 guage so I can grab it and load as I go. As for light I leave the kitchen light on and I have two well placed security pole lights front and back so it wouldnt have been an issue. Though I'm getting a light I can mount under the barrel as well. I was a little frazzled this morning and today I've came up with a plan. My 12 guage will be loaded next to the bed while I'm home in bed and if I experience anything like it again I will slip out of the room while my fiancé grabs the 20 guage I'll leave under her side. Then I plan to dispatch the intruder thanks to the new laws passed here im nc. During the day I will clear the weapons and place them back in the safe. I also purchased two tri ball rubber rounds and a bean bag round though I've heard there can be legal issues with using less then leathal rounds.
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Old June 28, 2011, 01:17 AM   #15
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How about flachett rounds

Has anyone shot them, what are the penetrating characteristics? Would they be safer in the house?
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Old June 28, 2011, 01:26 AM   #16
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Ask for marksmanship, I'm no stud but I always get at least 35 our of 40 with my m4 with a red dot 68
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Old June 28, 2011, 01:30 AM   #17
C Philip
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Check out the Box O' Truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm) for some shotgun penetration tests. Even birdshot penetrates several walls, but it will not meet the 12" FBI minimum in ballistic gelatin and is not recommended for self defense use. It's ultimately your decision, but I strongly recommend sticking with standard 00 buck.

Gimmick rounds like flechette, rubber buck, bean bags, etc. should be avoided at all costs. They will not reliably stop an attacker, are too expensive to practice regularly with, and as you mentioned can have legal issues surrounding them. You may only get one shot to save your life, do you want the first shot to be a bean bag?
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Old June 28, 2011, 11:27 AM   #18
Lee Lapin
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if I experience anything like it again I will slip out of the room while my fiancé grabs the 20 guage I'll leave under her side

Ummm... what's your MOS?

Generally it's a bad plan to move around in the house IMHO, unless there are kids in the house that need to be secured in the face of an obvious threat. I'd also worry about leaving someone behind me who was armed, scared and might be too scared to be as careful as she might be about target identification. In other words, friendly fire sux big time.

Wandering around looking for trouble generally means you'll find it. A better bet is to let the trouble come to you. Better to be the ambusher than the ambushee. The 'school solution' is to hunker down with the family behind cover in the dark with the entrance (ideally the only entrance) to your safe room backlit by household or emergency lighting. SO should be on the phone with the 9-1-1 dispatcher, you should be covering the door with the shotgun and waiting for the LEOs to arrive.

Then I plan to dispatch the intruder thanks to the new laws passed here im nc.

Ouch. Your attorney (if you ever need one in a self defense shooting) will probably wish you'd never said that. Better to remember that in self defense, the idea is to shoot to stop whatever the assailant's behavior was that gave clearly describable legal justification to shoot in the first place. Best do some homework on the laws of self defense in NC, they are weird, to put it kindly.

I also purchased two tri ball rubber rounds and a bean bag round though I've heard there can be legal issues with using less then leathal rounds.

Next trip to the range, shoot them up so you won't be tempted to load your shotgun with them at home. ANYTHING fired out of a shotgun, including a blank, can be lethal. A shotgun is by definition a lethal weapon and there is nothing an armed citizen (as opposed to a LEO) can load into one that can be considered other than lethal. As an armed citizen, if you are legally justified in shooting anything at all at another human out of a shotgun, you are legally justified in killing that person. If you are NOT legally justified in shooting at another human being, there is nothing whatsoever you can load into a shotgun that is legally OK to shoot at them.

hth,

lpl
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Old June 28, 2011, 01:35 PM   #19
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Gimmick rounds like flechette, rubber buck, bean bags, etc. should be avoided at all costs. They will not reliably stop an attacker,
Agreed, but I will go further and say I wasn't impressed by the buckshot penetration either. 6 or 7 pcs of drywall only seems limiting to me. Subtract more penetration if anything else beside drywall is hit. Buckshot is marginal unless you have an ideal shot. I think it's because of the light weight of the shot.
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Old June 28, 2011, 03:55 PM   #20
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Agreed, but I will go further and say I wasn't impressed by the buckshot penetration either. 6 or 7 pcs of drywall only seems limiting to me. Subtract more penetration if anything else beside drywall is hit. Buckshot is marginal unless you have an ideal shot. I think it's because of the light weight of the shot.
Are you serious?
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Old June 28, 2011, 04:58 PM   #21
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Sure am. Did you see how close the drywall sheets were? That's not very much penetration. Add in a 2x4 framing or any other obstacle that could be found in a house and the buckshot isn't going too far. They didn't even get 12" in ballistic gel.

If you live in an apartment building or are overly concerned about over penetration then Buckshot may be a good choice for you. Myself, I live in a brick house and the kids are grown. I want all the penetration I can get.
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Old June 28, 2011, 05:30 PM   #22
Lee Lapin
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Buckshot won't penetrate enough? Maybe if you're after Cape buffalo and grizzlies...

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http://www.brassfetcher.com/Federal%...%2023MAR11.pdf
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Old June 28, 2011, 05:39 PM   #23
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I guess all those deer I've killed with buckshot were just the pansies of the forest then. Or maybe you're expecting bad guys in panzers?
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Old June 28, 2011, 09:14 PM   #24
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Edward, The photograph of drywall penetration is for #4 buckshot, which is a smaller bucksot. Many proponents of using buckshot advocate the use of larger shot; #1 or #00. Framing isn't going to interfere with penetration unless hit. If you are talking about exterior walls, sheeting may be an issue.
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Old June 28, 2011, 10:10 PM   #25
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I'm thinking that if you shoot someone in your home, repairing your drywall will be the last thing on your list of things to worry about!
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