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Old August 19, 2011, 11:40 AM   #1
Barber2678
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Any 50 year old gun?

I should know the answer to this question but I am in doubt.
Does any gun that is 50 years old qualify as C&R? Say I want to buy a Model 70 that was made in '58, does that qualify or does the design have to be declared C&R?
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Old August 19, 2011, 12:06 PM   #2
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The 50 year old rule applies to the date of manufacture of the individual gun, not to the design date or the introduction date. Yes, a Model 70 made in 1958 is a C&R.

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Old August 19, 2011, 12:45 PM   #3
Barber2678
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That is what I thought. It has been a while since I have been through my paperwork.

Thanks!
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Old August 19, 2011, 01:20 PM   #4
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Does any gun that is 50 years old qualify as C&R?
Not if it is restricted in any other way (like fully auto, etc). You probably knew that already but others reading this may not.
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Old August 19, 2011, 02:21 PM   #5
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I did know that. Unfortunate as it is. Thanks for making that clarification to the thread.
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Old August 19, 2011, 08:34 PM   #6
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Hi, noelf2,

Not correct, at least as far as machineguns go. A 50 year old SMG (say a WWII STEN) is a C&R, and can be transferred like a C&R once transfer approval is obtained. In other words, if I have a STEN and want to sell it to a C&R licensee in another state, once the Form 4 is approved, I can ship it or take it directly to him, as a C&R. I do not have to transfer it through a Class 3 dealer at either end.

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Old August 20, 2011, 08:23 AM   #7
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The 50 year old rule applies to the date of manufacture of the individual gun, not to the design date or the introduction date. Yes, a Model 70 made in 1958 is a C&R.
That is news and a surprise to me. I thought all C&Rs were listed specifically in the regs.
If what you say is correct (no offense, I'm a cautious doubter. allergic to steel bars.) many very "modern" type guns will soon be so designated. The Ted Williams shotgun I bought at Sears in 1955 would be a relic. My Ruger Single Six bought about 1970 will soon be, and etc.
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Old August 20, 2011, 11:01 AM   #8
gyvel
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That is news and a surprise to me. I thought all C&Rs were listed specifically in the regs.
Read the law and the regulations. It is specifically stated that any firearm which can be proven to have been made 50 years prior to "today's date" is classified as a C&R by BATF. The specific listings, initially, were guns that were petitioned by individuals to have them reclassified as C&R's, some of which were LESS than 50 years old, some older. But the law actually reads that any gun 50 years old or older is automatically a C&R.

So... That means, as of today, August 20, 2011, you can use your C&R license to purchase any gun made prior to August 20, 1961.

Last edited by gyvel; August 20, 2011 at 11:22 AM.
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Old August 20, 2011, 11:05 AM   #9
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gyvel, thanks.
It has been decades since I actually read 'the book'.
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Old August 20, 2011, 11:40 AM   #10
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Thank you all for the responses.
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Old August 20, 2011, 11:45 AM   #11
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I guess I'm a Curio and Relic as I've been shooting for more than 50 years !
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Old August 20, 2011, 01:07 PM   #12
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It's a little more complicated than that. Many Chinese SKSs (the ones originally manufactured for military use) can be dated through their serial numbers, but the BATF refuses to acknowledge that so they classify all Chinese SKSs as non C&Rs regardless of their date of manufacture.

Also, many commemorative guns and guns with historical value are added to the list every year. I suspect that it is often political cronyism so that someone that supported a politician can own a gun in an area that restricts non C&Rs much more heavily.
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Old August 20, 2011, 02:17 PM   #13
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Originally, under the 1968 law, a gun was a C&R ONLY if a specific model or a specific gun, by serial number, was designated as one by ATTD (as it was then). And a gun was designated as a C&R ONLY if an application was made and approved to so designate it/them. That is where the old lists came in, with some categories (Blech pistols from Lower Slobovian contract...) and some specific serial numbers.

The 50 year rule was part of the newer law but the old lists were not changed.

In any case, auto weapons could be designated as C&R but still require transfer approval and tax (Form 4). That applies only to guns - something like a carbine M2 kit, by itself, is not a C&R and a C&R license holder would be the same as anyone else in buying it.

I know of no blanket ban on the SKS being a C&R or any exception to the 50 year rule. But if BATFE cannot verify the date of manufacture, the 50 year rule becomes moot. Also, China has been made (by George H.W. Bush's executive order) a special case for arms import; neither handguns nor "assault rifles" can be imported from China, even though similar ones can be imported from other countries.

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Old August 20, 2011, 09:47 PM   #14
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You are all wrong and you are all right. The ATFE has a list of "approved curio and relics" You can find it here: http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-p-5300-11.pdf .
As a general rule a gun that is 50 years old (by manufacture date) is elligible. Just remember that the burden of proof is on YOU the purchaser and the seller. If ther are no records of manufacture dates Vs. serial number or no serial number, you are out of luck. Now if there is an obvious reason that the gun must be more than fifty years old, i.e. the company went out of business (i.e. Eastern Arms Co.) or discontinued manufacture of that model more than 50 years ago (i.e Wichester model 1897) you are good to go. Short barreled guns and machine guns still fall under the old rules.
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Old August 28, 2011, 04:19 AM   #15
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The last thing to worry about with a pre-64 Model 70 is the daft C&R. It's condition, what it's chamber in and the price is far more important. There's a 1945 made .30 Carbine on Gunsamerica that's valued at $14,500. A .270 at $1199 and a 1939 vintage .30-06 at $725. None of which need to be put in any silly book.
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Old August 28, 2011, 05:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
The last thing to worry about with a pre-64 Model 70 is the daft C&R. .
I'm not sure why you would say its the last thing to worry about. Having a C&R license would allow him to skip both sending it to an FFL and a background check.

Quote:
It's condition, what it's chamber in and the price is far more important. There's a 1945 made .30 Carbine on Gunsamerica that's valued at $14,500. A .270 at $1199 and a 1939 vintage .30-06 at $725. None of which need to be put in any silly book
Irrelevant to the question asked. His example about a Model 70 was only a hypothetical.
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Old August 28, 2011, 01:50 PM   #17
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Hi, T. O'Heir,

You wrote: "None of which need to be put in any silly book."

Well they have to be put in some book. If the buyer has a C&R license, they have to be entered in his book. If he doesn't, they have to be shipped to a dealer and entered in his book. Maybe some folks don't bother with a "silly book", but the alternative could be unpleasant if BATFE cares enough to check.

Hi, JiminTexas,

I am not sure what you mean by "the old rules". NFA firearms (but not suppressors, kits, and other "non-guns") certainly do come under the 50-year rule and something like a WWII Thompson SMG is a C&R. They still need to be transferred with the paperwork and tax payment, but they can be shipped by an individual directly to a C&R licensee, without a Class 3 dealer being involved.

Jim
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Old August 29, 2011, 08:04 PM   #18
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Don't forget that the definition of age is different for a C&R than it is for an antique. A Finnish M-39 built in the late 60's on a 1895 Tula receiver is actually an antique because the receiver is an antique, even though it was clearly made by the Finns in the late 60's. My 1942 Turk Mauser that I re-barreled to 45acp, however, is NO LONGER C&R even though the receiver is over 50 years old. C&R firearms need to be in a configuration in which they were originally issued for them to stay C&R ...

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Old August 30, 2011, 12:41 PM   #19
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Amazing that this thread now has 19 posts. This was a simple question, and should have had 1 maybe 2 replies, which should have answered the question. All you have to do is go to the ATF website.

Regarding definitions, if the gun is altered IE sporterized, it is not A C&R as others have said. Also antiques that are converted to fire modern ammo are not antiques although the older Remington 1858 conversion for example qualify since those modifications were done before 1898 anyways.
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