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Old August 19, 2011, 06:51 PM   #26
Gus-gus
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Some of you guys answered the question I asked. In fact some of you helped me see how and what I have been considering for awhile as correctly contemplated. Changing my carry habit and learning what this new land (very new to city life and to Tacoma) has to offer or threaten.
Chris_B was exactly the kind of response I was hoping to see.

Vito, called the race hate card, which I expected more would actually. If I had described them as white guys, Vito would not have said anything. I mentioned it because it is relevant.

I saw the situation very close and traveling onto it quickly. I was faced with an accident as I was attempting to understand the scene. It was a sensory overload condition as riding the bike became number one.
I never considered pulling my gun, but in my case I also never thought about calling 911 either. Never even considered it. I was just glad to have made it through without being clothes-lined or impacting the thug or riding over one of the guys.
Lastly and quite honestly, I am not going to confront hoodlums, but was interested in others opinions. Calling the police, that would be a case by case thing for me. Whether or not calling 911 is the right thing to do, it is MY choice. That said, on my motorcycle, in the cool and foggy mornings, on an unfamiliar road, and after listening to locals who suggest I don't stop in many locations, I will not stop until I know better. I don't know if the area is OK or not but given time I will begin to feel comfortable with certain parts of the area.
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Old August 19, 2011, 07:21 PM   #27
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I was in a similar situation in the outskirts of Mobile, Alabama.

Short version:
I got lost in a suburb, the day after a Tropical Storm pounded the area. I ended up in a bad area, after dark, and was the only white guy in town. Everyone on the streets was carrying weapons. I don't know what was going on, but I wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible. I slowed to an idle in 1st gear (didn't want to stop), to look at a map, and heard some shouting.

When I looked up, 2 groups of armed men were kicking the crap out of a few other unfortunate souls. When they saw me, both groups rushed toward my car. I had my .44 Mag loaded, sitting in my lap. ...But that wasn't the answer. My 6 shots in a single-action revolver were no competition for the firearms I could already see in some of their hands; let alone, the ones that may have been concealed.

The answer was the gas pedal. I barely squeezed through the groups, and blasted my out of that town. ...The wrong way, down a one-way street.

Sometimes, retreat (or escape) is the best solution. Once you're away, you can try to help anyone that may still be stuck in the mob.
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Old August 19, 2011, 08:14 PM   #28
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Probably because that indicates that it was most likely gang related vito.
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Old August 19, 2011, 11:59 PM   #29
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Having a pretty good idea where gus was talking about, (having been there late night/early morning myself years ago) I think he did well.

The high probability is there were no "good guys" involved. It was more likely turf time...there are parts of Tacoma I don't like being in, even in the day time, let alone at night.

Personally, I don't own a cell phone, and don't want one. They don't work where I live anyway. But even if I did have a cell phone, I, personally, would have probably done what he did,,,get the H*** out of their, safely if at all possible, and let them worry about their turf war on their own.
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Old August 20, 2011, 07:10 AM   #30
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First, your out numbered.

I would have ridden off, came back in the bushes, and been a witness as I called (cell phone) 911.

Those JBs would have never seen me.

Why you ask? you should go to the TT board and asked this.

Last edited by JohnKSa; August 20, 2011 at 01:35 PM. Reason: .
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Old August 20, 2011, 08:21 AM   #31
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I believe not getting involved was the right thing to do. One of the first things I was trained in when I went through medic school was not to add yourself as another victim. You can not do anyone any good at all if you are down.

Personaly I would have gone a good safe distance away. Like at least a mile away, and then called 911. You do not know what was going on. It could have been a gang "jump in". You could have started to help the guys. Only to have them come at you too. Too many variables. I know the police would not have gone in with only one, or even 3 officers.
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Old August 20, 2011, 08:37 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m&p45acp10+1
I believe not getting involved was the right thing to do. One of the first things I was trained in when I went through medic school was not to add yourself as another victim. You can not do anyone any good at all if you are down.

Personaly I would have gone a good safe distance away. Like at least a mile away, and then called 911. You do not know what was going on. It could have been a gang "jump in". You could have started to help the guys. Only to have them come at you too. Too many variables. I know the police would not have gone in with only one, or even 3 officers.
My largest concern when it was happening was at first not impacting any one of the cars, then it switched to avoiding the melee ahead.
Not as an excuse, but there were at least 5 cars and who knows how many people in those cars, who had a much easier time dealing with the 911 issue and it would be easy to believe 2, 3 or 4 of the cars had to be locals.
How many cars passed right before us or after us. Did everyone remain silent? I highly doubt it.
I feel good rationalizing my decision to scoot along and never look back. It never hit the news and a good friend who lives right near there said he didn't see anything when he passed by there a couple hours later.

But my CHL will become a dear friend.
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Old August 20, 2011, 08:42 AM   #33
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You came upon a scene where there was a scuffle ...
You have no idea who or what may have started it and you yourself were in no immediate danger, therefore a better option would have been to simply call 911, in my opinion
You indicate that he was not in danger and yet the fact that 20 to 30 people were involved does not indicate to you that this was one group willing to engage those who do not want to be involved. It would seem to me that just being near the situation would be inherently dangerous unless you believe your martial skill is so movies like that you can handle 20 - 30 men in unarmed combat.

I get it that this was probably some gang activity but you not being a member of that gang doesnt mean some idiot doesnt want to add you to the activity simply for being there.

Having no idea of the specifics of what happened to cause this scene nor any factual information on who was involved leaves you with no factual picure to form decisions from other than what your eyes and ears presents to you. You cannot simply assume your color or lack or color or your absence of gang membership will make you immune from the incident and to assume such is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Without having been there its impossible to say what the right move would have been but I suspect that I would not have tried to protect anyone but myself or my family in this situation. Too many people involved to watch them all and how do you know that the one your protecting isnt actually the criminal or maybe in this case they were all criminals.... I dont know...

I think you called the situation right.
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Old August 20, 2011, 10:12 AM   #34
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If I HAVE NO ONE I KNOW IN a bad situation I WOULD LEAVE & CALL 911.
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Old August 20, 2011, 11:45 AM   #35
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I guess I'm different..........I guess its the cop in me.

I come across simular situations, those odds and someone getting hurt I would have to step in.

I learned in the Army and LE that even a single ACTIVE AGRESSIVE response can often turn a crowd.

Maybe I will get my A$$ kicked. Its been kicked before. Can't live forever.

I seem to remember reading something in the "GOOD BOOK" about helping the oppressed.
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Old August 20, 2011, 12:05 PM   #36
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Your first responsibility is to yourself, then your family. If you feel you have any responsibility for the public, they are a distant third. Legally you have no duty to act, so whether you do or not is a personal decision based on the circumstances. The circumstances you described, I would continue on and contact the police as soon as possible. I would probably have stopped before entering the melee, and turned around if possible.

The OP said this made him think about deploying a firearm while on his motorcycle in full riding gear, and this is a reasonable thing to think about in general. A coworker of mine carries his firearm in a tank bag on his motorcycle, so that he can easily access from a riding position should it become necessary. If you were wearing riding gloves that prohibited firearms use, you could simply pull it off and throw it away as part of your draw. I cannot see any reason in real life to shoot while actually operating the motorcycle. If you're still riding, focus on exiting the killzone.
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Old August 20, 2011, 12:41 PM   #37
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I cannot see any reason in real life to shoot while actually operating the motorcycle.
A bit off topic but I believe there is. My wife and Granddaughter are into mounted (cowboy) action shooting. Shooting baloons from horse back. I figure why not so I do it on my motorcyle. I do this drawing my 642 from my left pants pocket (where I normally carry it) and shoot baloons with bird shot.

Granted its of no practiical use but its a lot of fun, you'd be supprised how much fun it is.

Not a whole lot different then shooting from vehicles. At my age I really doubt I'll have a need to shoot from a HumVee, but a couple years ago Zak Smith put on a multi gun match where we rifles from a military humVee. It was a heck of a lot of fun.

Why not pistols from motorcylces (for recreation purposes)
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Old August 20, 2011, 12:54 PM   #38
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I would have created as much distance as my first and only option.I wouldn't have even called 911 as I am sure 9 out of 10 motorists driving by already had their phones in their hands talking or text messaging.
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Old August 20, 2011, 01:05 PM   #39
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This is one of those situations so often discussed here ... you come on an incident in the middle; HOW do you decide who the good guys are, and who are the baddies? Who do you shoot first? How do you explain why you got involved with a weapon to your jury?

Get through or turn around, get to safety and call the cops!! They get paid to sort out messes like the one you described.
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Old August 20, 2011, 01:06 PM   #40
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You did right

Even if I had quad-fifties mounted in my truck, I would have turned around and left. It's a can't win situation and even if technically justified in using deadly force to aid the guys who are down, you'll lose the tactical situation, the legal aftermath or both.

If you want a first-hand account of what happens when a mob sets upon you, go to crazyvideos.com for a sobering enlightenment. Use their search window.
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Old August 20, 2011, 01:19 PM   #41
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I guess I'm different..........I guess its the cop in me.

I come across simular situations, those odds and someone getting hurt I would have to step in.
The OP wasn't active duty LE, so his response of getting-the-heck-outta-Dodge was the only smart one.

For those of us in LE however, sometimes that option just doesn't present itself. Normally, when a large fight call comes in, we have the luxury of radios to coordinate a simultaneous arrival.

An old schooler once told me "Lot's of sirens and drive slow. By the time you get there, either they've split or they're too tired to fight any more".

Sometimes though, you round the corner on "routine" patrol and unexpectedly find yourself in the thick of it. You can't simply back off and wait for backup.

Quote:
Maybe I will get my A$$ kicked. Its been kicked before.
Yep, and sometimes when you least expect it. I stumbled on such a fight one night. There was a large crowd in the street, but the actual fighters were only two women. "How hard can this be?" I thought . Radioed it in and waded in to seperate them. Just as I did, one of them threw a roundhouse punch. I didn't see the keys protruding from her fist. I still have the scar below my eye, and the docs said half an inch higher, I would've lost the eye.

Those of us in LE are obligated to act, but others really need to assess the situation before trying to render aid. You can't help someone if you're lying in the street beside them.
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Old August 20, 2011, 01:24 PM   #42
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After reading through this thread and seeing the comments, I will say that the fact that you were able to come away from it unscathed is a good outcome. I take it you're not a sworn police/peace officer and don't have the responsibility/priority to Protect and Serve the public, so you did your job by looking out for #1.

From what others have posted, you should take away an important lesson from this situation like having your phone/CCW more easily accessible to you in case you do need them. Also, calling 911 from a safe location is a good idea too.

@ sigcurious - what you experienced was the bystander effect.
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Old August 20, 2011, 05:24 PM   #43
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"Who is important?"

You are, and your family.
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Old August 20, 2011, 09:09 PM   #44
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BikerBill and Capt. Charlie.
You guys honor your profession.

I have a series of personal stories where I was targeted by LEO's as the instigator or BG and in actuality I was a bystander or innocently involved. But that didn't suppress the LEO from pistol whipping me or arresting me and putting me in jail at the worst possible time in my families safety. So I have a sore Urination about being trashed and booked for nada. Incidentally I have a clean record, every single charge was dropped, including the hind end pummeling of the Alaska State Trooper, which I delivered. He won't do that again.

But in all honesty I am impressed with the dedication and selflessness reflected by a very few LEO's (Present company included) This is why I asked the question. In my reflection of the event I felt the twinge again of wanting to help the injured by getting involved. However I don't believe in a second that I would choose that direction.

Lastly, I intend to take a tactical CHL course locally, with my bride and adapt my riding style to better effect my control of dangerous situations and also help her comfort level with handguns.

Edited for language filter avoidance -GEM
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Old August 21, 2011, 06:53 AM   #45
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Quote:
Why did you feel it was relevant to mention the race of the individuals involved?
Having to worry about offending someone for describing a situation is getting old. Please go cry wolf somewhere else.

Knowing the details allows for a better picture of the ordeal.

Example a group of white guys beating a small handful of blacks in the south in the 60's describes in my mind a racial beating. If I had left out the races and said a group of men fighting in the street it doesn't help to explain the situation.

If race has relevance when its beneficial for the minority it certainly has relevance when it isn't.
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Old August 21, 2011, 07:53 AM   #46
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Make your weapon and a means of communication more accessible. If you are not able to access either, what is the point of carrying them?
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Old August 21, 2011, 08:03 AM   #47
Gus-gus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streetprowler
Make your weapon and a means of communication more accessible. If you are not able to access either, what is the point of carrying them?
Good points which have been made previously and without any school yard accusations.

So you buy auto insurance to use it for parking lot scratches?

Come on man, carrying a gun is still better than not, even if it is tough to access.

I call BS on the premise of "what's the point".

I would rather have a gun somewhere in the house when it is needed, than wish my neighbors could help me.

I believe I have explained myself sufficiently and heard from some smart people who have suggested some excellent ideas, your post isn't one of them.
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Old August 21, 2011, 09:58 AM   #48
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Folks, know the rules - if you are new here, study them. You don't impress us by using a dirty word with symbols to avoid the filter.

It doesn't make you seem a tough guy.

And if you do it again, you get to go bye-bye.

We run a family site, cuss elsewhere with the boys.

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Also, this thread is starting to become some guys bickering. Have all the questions been answered? Otherwise, no need to contribute to such.
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Old August 21, 2011, 11:08 AM   #49
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Who is important?

Quote:
Honestly I don't think I would have stopped even in my truck. Is that wrong?
Do the Texas two-step:

Step 1: get safely out of the area

Step 2: call 911 and give the dispatcher a good report; location, description, etc.

And when you get home, you can watch the evening news to find out what the big ruckus was all about, if you're still interested.
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Old August 21, 2011, 12:10 PM   #50
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Highway 99 and 200th street "in" Tacoma? I don't remember 99 continuing into Tacoma.
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