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Old August 19, 2011, 03:05 PM   #26
TailGator
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Nothing - no dog, or alarm system, or firearm - can keep you completely safe. Your goal, cynical as it may be, is to be less vulnerable than someone else so the BG finds easier pickings. It is, for example, much more likely that the BG who is scouting you will decide to go to a house without a dog than that he will come up with an elaborate plan to silently kill your dog. BGs aren't looking for a challenge, they are looking to enrich themselves with the least effort possible.

And although they haven't been on TV or been the designated spokespersons for their department, I have several times had LEOs tell me that they recommend citizens, and especially small business people, be armed. Preaching to the choir, of course.
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Old August 19, 2011, 03:06 PM   #27
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You're sitting on the couch watching TV when 5 guys crash through your rear slider and you have 3 seconds before they are in your living room with you. What do you do? Is the element of surprise and disparity of force too much to overcome? Do you wait until they separate to search the house before drawing and taking down the one or two in sight, hoping you can escape into the night with your family?
Well, I know what I would do in those 3 seconds... try to pull my 9mm from my holster and start shooting. Could it be the cops doing a no-knock, sure - I guess I'll be dead and my family would be well-off if that were the case.
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Old August 19, 2011, 03:14 PM   #28
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Nothing - no dog, or alarm system, or firearm - can keep you completely safe. Your goal, cynical as it may be, is to be less vulnerable than someone else so the BG finds easier pickings. It is, for example, much more likely that the BG who is scouting you will decide to go to a house without a dog than that he will come up with an elaborate plan to silently kill your dog. BGs aren't looking for a challenge, they are looking to enrich themselves with the least effort possible.

And although they haven't been on TV or been the designated spokespersons for their department, I have several times had LEOs tell me that they recommend citizens, and especially small business people, be armed. Preaching to the choir, of course.
But you don't know if one of the BG's just wants to "off" someone for the hell of it. Doing nothing gives you a 50/50 chance of living.
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Old August 19, 2011, 03:52 PM   #29
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Thanks for the ideas. I would like to hear more about securing a 5' sliding glass door.
I have installed these on a few houses in AZ. They are amazingly strong and simple. They work great on sliding glass/french doors and windows.

http://www.qmiusa.com/homesafe/homesafe-overview.aspx
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Old August 19, 2011, 07:44 PM   #30
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to answer your 4th post...I would like to personally turn our primary home defense duties back to our shotgun.
Some folks consider the shotgun a backup to the more readily accessable handgun. But, if you have time to get to it, do so.

I remember reading about some detectives investigating home invasion robberies in the East, who were so impressed with the speed at which an invasion could occur, that they began arming themselves at all times while at home off duty.

Sounds like insider trading home defense strategy to me. They learned things most people never knew, and acted on their knowledge.

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 19, 2011 at 07:54 PM.
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Old August 19, 2011, 11:24 PM   #31
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It is, for example, much more likely that the BG who is scouting you will decide to go to a house without a dog than that he will come up with an elaborate plan to silently kill your dog. BGs aren't looking for a challenge, they are looking to enrich themselves with the least effort possible.

That's true with one or two bad guys. But if 5 bad guys have scouted your house, know you have a dog, and decide to come in anyway, they probably have made arrangements for dealing with it. A baseball bat to the head doesn't make a whole lot of noise.
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Old August 20, 2011, 12:17 AM   #32
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One of my closest buddies is a police detective that works a very violent area. He constantly tells people that they have to be crazy to leave their house without being armed.
Lots of LE would tell you that--off the record. I'm referring to spokesmen who appear on tv and advise people how to prevent crime.

That's the point. City and Police higher ups know you're better off armed. But it's politically incorrect to tell the public that.
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Old August 20, 2011, 01:14 AM   #33
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I dont think there way anything they could have done at that point.

Pre-planning sure.

Dog
Security motion detecting flood lights.
Shatter-gard on all glass door and windows.
Alarm system loud enuff to be heard in the shower.
Firearms on person or in a discreet lockbox in primary areas (ie living room, bedroom, etc).

Thats the order I would want them in.
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Old August 20, 2011, 08:35 AM   #34
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I just carry when I am in the house. If not carrying then I have one very close by. I live in a rented duplex so alarm system is not an option. I did reinforce the doors. The windows are plexiglass, and secured fairly well. They will not shatter from a strike. I know they would not stop a determined intruder, but it would slow them down for a few seconds atleast.

I have a dog. Though he would have to drop his ball to be effective against anyone. I doubt he would bite anyone. He does let me know when my girlfriend is home, or when the girl scouts are at the door to sell cookies. He gets happy then.

Due to the neighborhood my biggest concearn would be a case of wrong house home invasion. They have had a couple of them happen here. All counts the victim knew the attacker. All but one were to rob the house of drugs, and money. One was a case of wrong house. When the invaders figured out that they had the wrong house, they stabbed the elderly man that lived there, and fled. Luckily the man only suffered from non life threatening injuries. The three attackers were caught less than 20 minutes later. All were sentenced to 80 years each.
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Old August 20, 2011, 01:13 PM   #35
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Agree that our great white fathers in government don't subscribe to an armed response. But, guns should be your last line of defense. All the advice offered to dissuade burglars/home invaders from targeting you remain valid. These include, lights, cutting back shrubs, alarm system with panic buttons, a dog, locked doors, are all valid and should be done. When all else fails, the home invaders will flee once you shoot the first one. It ain't Hollywood. They won't want a shoot-out.

Here's where you can get into deep doo-doo. Don't give chase, putting rounds in their backs as they flee down the driveway. Call 911, ask for medical assistance for the guy you shot. And don't execute him if he's still alive. You'll be charged with murder.
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Old August 22, 2011, 12:56 AM   #36
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Actually a 12 bore shotgun would probably do just fine to ward off home invaders. About two weeks ago 4 armed males broke into a wheel chair bound
older ladies home. She had bought a single shot 12 gage to get rid of some animals that were tearing up her garden. SHe was in her bedroom and as I said 4 armed males broke into her home. She had a light load in it for the small garden pests.
When two of them broke through the door of her bedroom she let loose with a blast. One of the bad guys took most of it to the face and the second lost a finger or two. The others broke and ran. The guy that took the hit to the face survived the birdshot type load. But I doubt if their is much left of his face. The guy that lost his finger(s) didn't get them back. The other two were caught shortly their after. In most instances when these situations have happened and the home invaders have taken hits they get gone fast. No guarantees. But they are counting on the element of surprise. When one or two of them are dropped the element of surprise then falls on them.
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Old August 22, 2011, 02:04 AM   #37
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Hoorah! for little old ladies with 12ga shotguns!
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Old August 22, 2011, 02:27 AM   #38
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So, when you leave your wife and daughter at home, are they armed? Would even a 12 ga shotgun have been effective against 5 armed invaders?Prior reports indicated that a shotgun was stolen, but these women were obviously unprepared to use it, couldn't/didn't resist, and all were left physically unharmed at the end of 4.5 hours of captivity.
The only effective weapon would have been the one on the belt, in the hand, or within reach at the time of the attack.
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Old August 22, 2011, 03:51 AM   #39
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Plain and simple, if it's not close by and ready, you are toast because they will wait till you least expect it.

These puke bag States need to eliminate the Castle Doctrines and allow normal Law abidding Citizens to go on the offensive. They won't do that tho, because they all get too much money from the Federal Government for Police who seem to have the attitude (in NY) that only they should have guns.

Anytime a system is created on tax money, there is corruption. Not allowing citizens to protect themselves is just one example.

Would that 20 Y.O. punk showing crack, while bee-bopping around in public give you lip if he knew you had a .45 under your shoulder?

It shouldn't be the law abidding such as myself who have to bite our tongues!
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Old August 22, 2011, 08:02 AM   #40
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Hiker1, it appears you assume there will only be one dog, and that it will be left on its own, outdoors.

I have three, and they are primarily indoor dogs. When outdoors, the two large dogs play together. I suppose they'd be vulnerable to poisons, but a baseball bat, not so much.

Somebody harming one of my dogs while they are outdoors would be a huge tipoff that something else might follow.

And nobody approaches silently when multiple dogs are in the house.

But other things people can do, in addition to carrying while at home:

1) Don't set up the yard so that there are bushes, hedges, small trees up against the house, where intruders can hide. For night-time, motion detector lights are also a good idea.

2) Have spring and deadbolts on all exterior doors (and treat the door from the garage as an exterior door); ensure all exterior doors are good quality, and seated in strong, solid door-frames.

3) Have locks on all windows (and have good, tempered glass windows).

4) Use the locks on the doors and windows; they don't do much good otherwise.

5) Use burglar bars as well as locks on glass sliding doors.

6) If you have the money, sliding, locking metal shutters that can be rigged outside the sliding glass doors are a good idea. Swinging or sliding, locking metal shutters for the windows are, too.

7) Closed circuit TV and an intercom for the front door (and around the corners from the door, to look for potential accomplices) are a good way to look out for the BGs who knock at a door, then force it open when you go to see who's there.

And that's just for the exterior of the home. There are a bunch of things you can do inside.

And, of course, carry. But the gun is the last line of defense, not the first.
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Old August 22, 2011, 11:30 AM   #41
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Report said they "burst in"...

Dont' know if that means the door was opened to a knock, they kicked it in, or went around back to a glass door. Obviously moving to a nice town isn't the answer; both of the CT invasions happened in price-exclusive neighborhoods. Very much like mine.

You have offered a lot of good ideas. But nobody has mentioned the peep sight, which i installed some years back. Allows you to see, or demand to see, someone at the door without opening it. Except when the wife hangs a wreath right over it during the holidays.

Good lighting; just saw lighting kits from Sprtsmans guide that aren't just motion sensing, they are motion tracking so the lights move with the object that tripped the sensor. Looked pretty interesting.

Bushes next to the house aren't all bad; superior thorny brambles under windows can substantially deter someone forcing their way through if they are getting all cut up and snagged in the process.

Dogs - the benefits are endless, plus most are naturally vigilant and protective. And loud. And decidedly not easy to silence, considering the BG has to come inside first in order to deal with the dog, then dispatch a moving snarling target with teeth in the dark. Of course, i would be awakened to the initial barking and will be at the top of the stairs with Mr. Mossberg and a blinding tac light.

I really like the retractable blinds for the back door; maybe a danger if your house is prone to catching fire, but otherwise like a cosmetically enhanced version of the commercial roll-down gates on every storefront in NYC.

Alarms are okay, but i think the sign by the door does most of the work. If the alarm trips and the cops get called, they are still not going to be there except to mop up the mess. Unless the alarm is trained to say "shots fired, officer down". Which would open up a whole different can of worms, but would probably get the LE there a whole lot faster.

The worst thing about these is their apparent randomness. I guess you should never buy the biggest house in the neighborhood and should drive older cars. Or at least park the Mercedes in the garage, out of sight...
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Old August 24, 2011, 05:31 PM   #42
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You're sitting on the couch watching TV when 5 guys crash through your rear slider and you have 3 seconds before they are in your living room with you. What do you do? Is the element of surprise and disparity of force too much to overcome? Do you wait until they separate to search the house before drawing and taking down the one or two in sight, hoping you can escape into the night with your family?
Layers! Lighting outside, cameras outside, burglar bars, alarm system, rotweiler, and finally my family. I have given us an ounce of prevention plus the time to identify that we are under attack and acquire the defensive tools needed to repel an attack.
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Old August 24, 2011, 08:45 PM   #43
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With regard to the peep sight, I substituted in CCTV. If I were setting up a new place, I would prefer that. You don't have to approach the door to see who is there, just check the monitor.

Note: Credit where it is due, I got most of the home layering ideas from Mas Ayoob.
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Old August 25, 2011, 11:25 AM   #44
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Note: Credit where it is due, I got most of the home layering ideas from Mas Ayoob.
Mine just stacked up over the years. My burglar bars came on the house when I bought it although I did add front and rear door bars. Alarm system was my first move and saved me from a potential hugh loss in valuables. Our local deputies suggested the lighting to a neighbor while we all talked about an event that happened next door. Cameras were installed after someone stole a metal welcome mat from out front of my house while my boys were home alone and in serious fear (strange man looking shady out front stealing things). The wife and I wanted to be able to watch the house from our cell phones.....we love this BTW.....my boys not so much LOL. Finally the dog. My boys get credit for this because they whined and cried until I gave in. The Rotty is turning into an early warning system and a buttocks chewing machine.

I guess I just lucked into my system over time.
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Old August 25, 2011, 11:33 AM   #45
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I seriously need to get one
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Two weapons that was designed by the same man still in use by the us military 100 years later...1911 and m2...is there anything that comes close.....lol annd maybe perhaps a sig sauer p226 tac ops edition..
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Old August 25, 2011, 12:47 PM   #46
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One what?
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Old August 25, 2011, 01:08 PM   #47
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And although they haven't been on TV or been the designated spokespersons for their department, I have several times had LEOs tell me that they recommend citizens, and especially small business people, be armed. Preaching to the choir, of course.
My dad is a dentist and a few of his patients are local pd/sheriff's deputies. The most recent LEO that was in his chair knew that my dad was a hunter, gun owner, conceal carry holder, and asked "so what are you packing around the office?" and was astonished that he said nothing. He generally carries when going to his office at night to do paperwork, etc. - but I told him he should keep something on him, preferably something bigger in his back office, and if the front counter girls felt comfortable - something up front for them.

My step-mom agree at least with him carrying something on him at all times even while working, he owns his own practice and doesn't even make use of some of the benefits of being a small business owner. I would be ecstatic to be able to carry at work, and I single handedly would never be able to convince the owners otherwise unless something drastic happened here, which I hope it never does.
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Old August 25, 2011, 02:33 PM   #48
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(A Rottie!)

Hiker1, that would only be possible if the dog were in a coma upon arrival. If one is really worried about them taking out your lone dog, get another dog and that'll turn away even more people.

Any dog owner should know that dogs have a sense of duty and need to have a job. If you give them this encouragement to duty, they will be happy controllable, aggressive dogs who take their job seriously. One bark is for friends and another bark is for strangers or uniforms. I love dogs.

Home Depot or Lowes has a cheapish (185) camera setup that I use and has one cam and the remote but can easily be tied to an extra TV, and it works very good. It takes up to four cams I think.
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Old August 25, 2011, 02:57 PM   #49
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We've got the finest home security available, two great big ol' dogs and a crazy woman with a .357mag.
God help the poor dumb sob who tries it out.
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Old August 25, 2011, 10:33 PM   #50
Hiker 1
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Hiker1, it appears you assume there will only be one dog, and that it will be left on its own, outdoors.
I have three, and they are primarily indoor dogs. When outdoors, the two large dogs play together. I suppose they'd be vulnerable to poisons, but a baseball bat, not so much.


I assume nothing - if you have 3 dogs, you probably aren't going to have a home invasion. If you have 3 dogs and 5 BG's decide that it's still worth the risk, you and your dogs have a serious problem.
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