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Old August 10, 2011, 05:52 PM   #1
Gunilda
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Support hand slides down handguard

Was wondering if anyone (probably someone with short arms- female) has a problem with the support hand sliding down the AR-15 handguard each time a shot is fired?
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Old August 10, 2011, 06:55 PM   #2
kraigwy
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It happens,

I recommend a shooting mitt with rubber padding on the palm. Or you can use firm grip ( spray adhesives) like many high power shooters.

What you don't want to do is to grip the rifle firmly with the support hand to try to correct the problem. The forearm should rest on the support hand, not be held by it.

The problem isn't just with ARs as you can see by the below picture. You can tell the points where I used firm grip to assist in a riggid position without reverting to using muscles.

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Old August 10, 2011, 07:18 PM   #3
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Thank you. I'm very new to high powered matches and with so many things to think about, really don't need my NPOA being thrown off by the sliding hand thing. I use the gloved hand only as support and refrain from gripping the rifle. (Learned it through Appleseed.) It's driving me crazy.
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Old August 10, 2011, 07:25 PM   #4
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Strategically placed grip tape can help as well.

Relatively cheap, and can be found at Home Depot.

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Old August 10, 2011, 08:02 PM   #5
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Is this legal in matches (service rifle)?
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Old August 10, 2011, 09:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Is this legal in matches (service rifle)?

Don't put it on the rifle, but you can put it on the glove.
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Old August 11, 2011, 10:15 AM   #7
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Just read your post on tips for shooting offhand....great stuff!
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Old August 11, 2011, 10:59 AM   #8
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Gunilda

If you're interested in Service Rifle, I'd highly recommend paying $6.95 for the USAMU Service Rifle Guide. Best investment you can make. Put out by the CMP/AMU, written by the best shooters in the world.

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catal...4=&note5=&max=
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Old August 11, 2011, 11:43 AM   #9
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I saw your post this morning and ordered one.
Any tips to help me figure out the come-ups? I believe we got a good 200 yd zero with 5 (1/2") clicks; I later went out to 300 and had 20 clicks; 22 at 500 and 30 at 600. But I guess this isn't standard stuff, unfortunately, across the board. I've also read, and re-read and re-read, Jim Owens' book.
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Old August 11, 2011, 12:10 PM   #10
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Your number of "come ups" will vary based on your load, whether you have a 100, 200, or 300 yard zero.

If you are shooting a 20" barreled AR for service rifle and shooting a Mk262 clone (77gr SMK at 2800fps) for a handload you should have the following come ups for each range

100=0
200=4 clicks up from zero
300=9 clicks up from zero
600=32 clicks up from zero

Of course your sights might be a bit different than mathematically perfect, it could be a low pressure or high pressure day, and humidity can be all over the place, but those will get you on paper.

If you zero at 200 your come ups become

200=0
300=5
600=28

If you noticed the difference at 300 and 600 is exactly 4 clicks less than with your 100 yard zero, because you already used up those 4 clicks zeroing at 200.

If you head over to JBM Ballistics you can make a ballistics chart for your load, or let someone here know what load you are using and I'm sure one of us will post your ballistics chart.

If you end up shooting two different loads, a "short" and a "long" load then it is easier to just record your data for those two loads at 200, 300, and your long load at 600.

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Old August 11, 2011, 02:20 PM   #11
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Welcome to High Power.
There is a new website dedicated to Highpower.
http://www.centraljerseyhighpower.com/
Worth looking at.
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Old August 11, 2011, 02:45 PM   #12
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Thank you, I'll look at the ballistics site. Another question/concern- In Appleseed, on cease fire and making your rifle safe, you're supposed to clear the line and not go anywhere near your rifle until prep period begins. With the HP matches, when can you be near your rifle (I realize you can do everything but load until given that command), handling the rifle (dryfiring) and generally prepping for the next CoF? I want to avoid being yelled at if possible. Sorry, I know this is pretty elementary.
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Old August 11, 2011, 09:03 PM   #13
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In NRA and CMP, you always have to keep an ECI (empty chamber indicator) in the chamber of the rifle until you're on the line and the preparation period states. That's when you handle your rifle, dry fire, etc. Most places and matches allow you to get in position prior to the preparation period.

NO ONE IS GOING TO YELL AT YOU.

If you screw up a bit, (we all do) some one will mention it in a courteous manner.

High Power shooters are great people, they will go out of their way to help new shooters and make you feel welcome, they want to many sure you have a pleasant experience so you'll come back.

Getting YELLED At, is the last thing you have to worry about it.

The main goal you should have in our High Power shooting is to have fun. Don't hesitate to ask older shooters if you have a question.
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Old August 11, 2011, 10:07 PM   #14
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Welcome to Highpower!

My first suggestion is to find yourself some kind of notebook so you can keep records of sight settings, sling positions, etc when you're out shooting. This will help you keep track of what you need to be at when you're coming up to the line. Later you can pick up a shooting data book if you'd like (I have one, use it maybe 3/4 of the time, the rest of the time I put the thing away and just shoot).

As kraig said, nobody should be yelling at you. We were all new shooters are some point and will help along new shooters however possible. Just watch what others are doing, listen for commands and don't be afraid to ask those around you. We're happy to help you out and make sure you're experience is a positive one.

As for your hand slipping down the handguard, do you have a shooting glove? Between the glove and good sling tension, you shouldn't experience shifting as you shoot. But it depends on your shooting style; I like to keep the rifle in my shoulder shooting prone and just drop rounds in as fast as the target comes up (my teammates and I have dubbed this "playing Whack-a-Mole"). Others will take the buttstock out of the shoulder between shots and rebuild the position each time. I don't like this technique anymore precisely because I find my support hand and the buttstock slipping around, forcing me to chase NPA.

Good luck and welcome to the sport! Maybe we'll see you on the shores of Lake Erie someday (reference to the Nationals at Camp Perry)?
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Old August 11, 2011, 10:30 PM   #15
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Thank you Kraig and P-990. My husband just returned from Camp Perry and has me outfitted pretty well. I now have a Konus Scope, Rock River Arms AR-15 (he built), data book, leather cartridge holder, clip board, my sling and jacket from Appleseed (with my Rifleman patch affixed), a recently completed shooting cart he built, mat, glove, and empty bank account. I think I'm set. Now I need to get really good at this and as you say, have fun. I'll let you know how it goes for us after Saturday's match. Practiced off-hand and sitting tonight- really need to be able to practice more (and there's so much I can do right in the living room). Night
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Old August 11, 2011, 10:31 PM   #16
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BTW, I'm planning to make the trek to Perry next year
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Old August 12, 2011, 09:10 AM   #17
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My shots are all consistently going right (no wind to speak of at 100 yds).
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Old August 12, 2011, 09:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
My shots are all consistently going right (no wind to speak of at 100 yds).
Work on your position and natural point of aim. What is happening is your NPI is off a tad, when you release the trigger, you relax a tad (something that just happens) and you fall to a natural resting place. That natural resting place should be your NPI.

Best way to work on this is dry firing. Get all set, lined up, then close your eyes when you release the trigger. Without moving, open your eyes and see where your sights are lined up. If they arn't lined up perfectly, adjust your postition until they do.

After the hammer drops, and you recover from recoil, the sights should automaticly fall back on the target.

Even in a match (3 min prep period) you have plenty of time to dry fire, closing your eyes, openning them after the hammer falls, to make any corrections in your position.

There is a simple test to see if this is the problem when I'm coaching. Get the shooter into position, have him dry fire, then just before you sqeeze the trigger, hold a card or something in front of your eyes. He lets the hammer fall, then I move the card while he looks over the sights, you can see the shooter wiggle a bit to get back on the target.

If there is no little wiggle or adjustment, then the NPI is good, if there is any wiggle or movement at all, the NPI needs adjusted.

Edit to add: To help understand this, the AR Service Rifle has a 20.25 in Sight Radius. Taking that sight radius, any movement of .0056 of the front sight will move the impact 1 inch at 100 yards. So as you can see, it doesn't take much "falling off the NPI" to cause a shooter to be off.

That is why a NPI of so critical, but the NPI has to be in the relaxed position which a shooter has after firing the shoot. Mussleing can't do it, it has to be a solid position.
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Old August 12, 2011, 09:53 AM   #19
Gunilda
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Thank you, I'll work on it tonight and try to get some time in every night. Do you recommend being right on the charging handle (nose touching)? Part of it is rushing the shot and not being honest about my NPOA.
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Old August 12, 2011, 01:41 PM   #20
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Do you recommend being right on the charging handle (nose touching)
That depends. The head should be straight, you do what you have to do to bring the rifle to the head, not the other way around.

If done right, you should have a "chickmunk' roll on your cheek with your spot well.

If the nose touches the charging handle, so be it. If the gun is tight to your shoulder, it wont matter, you'll recoil with the rifle and the head wont move from the spot weld.

Quote:
Part of it is rushing the shot and not being honest about my NPOA
That's a big problem in all shooting, Honesty. You see it in data/score books. People want to write down what looks good, only good groups and calls. Recorded good groups and calls do nothing to help you. Recording what you did wrong, and the corrections needed do.

The rifle can't think, it really doesn't care what you do. If you jerk a flyer, only you know it. You need to be honest with your self.

Coaches are like doctors, they can't help you unless you are honest with them, Data books are the same way.
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Old August 12, 2011, 02:14 PM   #21
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Quote:
With the HP matches, when can you be near your rifle (I realize you can do everything but load until given that command), handling the rifle (dryfiring) and generally prepping for the next CoF? I want to avoid being yelled at if possible. Sorry, I know this is pretty elementary.
You're getting great advice. I wish I could add more.
Clubs may have circumstances that require special rules. One club I shoot at allows you to carry your rifle to the line before the prep period but you can not handle it or adjust it until the prep time begins. If at a new range it's best to ask about any unique procedures.
But kraig is right. Highpower shooters are a great bunch. Ask and ye shall receive. I once helped an opposing team member fix a gun and ended up getting beat by that same team.
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Old August 12, 2011, 04:32 PM   #22
Gunilda
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Guess the honesty thing is a lot like going to the personal trainer and saying, "I can't understand why I'm not losing any weight," then stopping at Burger King on the way home for a Double Whopper w/cheese. They can only do so much.

Y'all have been unbelievably supportive and helpful already. Great group of people and I look forward to making some great friends. Thank you!
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Old August 17, 2011, 11:09 AM   #23
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At my first real HP match at Ft Knox Ky they gave the command "relay one move your gear to the line do not handle your rifles"

I noticed a lot of guys moved the rifles up and put them down beside their gear and some did not touch them until the prep period command was given.

Later I asked the range master about this and he said they were somewhat relaxed on that and in a lot of places when they say don't handle your rifles they mean EXACTLY that. You don't touch it. So I got in the habit of not touching mine until the prep period is called no matter what anyone else did.
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Old August 17, 2011, 12:41 PM   #24
Gunilda
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Participated in a HP Rifle Match this past weekend. I was told I could do everything but take out my ECI or dry fire/load. From the NRA Rule Book:

10.1.1 Handling of Firearms -

After competitors are instructed to carry their rifles and equipment to the firing line, they are permitted to handle their rifles on the firing line as long as the muzzle remains pointed up or downrange and an ECI remains inserted. After arrival at the firing line and prior to the start of the preparation period, competitors may put a sling on and assume position with the rifle. Competitors may not remove the ECI, close the action or dry fire until the Range Officer announces the start of the preparation period.
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Old August 17, 2011, 05:02 PM   #25
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Gunilda,
Hope you match day was a good one. How did it go?
That was good to ask about procedures. Don't ever want to get the line officer upset.
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