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View Poll Results: What is the best strategy to deal with an unarmed mob like the milwaukee state fair?
Do you run and hide/escape and hope that you can find a place where you can be secure? 17 15.89%
Do you go to the assistance of a victim and attempt to stop the attack? 13 12.15%
Do you draw your weapon without pointing it at anyone? 4 3.74%
Do you calmly make your way out of the park and hope you aren't attacked? 26 24.30%
If attacked do you defend yourself and your family (with lethal force if necessary)? 93 86.92%
Do you take the beating and hope they don't kick you in the head too much and take your gun? 0 0%
Would your decision be affected if your race was the same as the mob or the victims? 4 3.74%
I don't think it happened, this thread is racist, and should be locked. 1 0.93%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 6, 2011, 03:52 AM   #26
youngunz4life
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now this is a mob

http://www.krtv.com/news/flash-mob-e...na-state-fair/
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Old August 6, 2011, 08:45 AM   #27
serf 'rett
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Ringolevio: You are correct that concealed firearms are banned from these type of events in some states.

I find it interesting there was no mention that any of the seven injured police officers felt compelled to shoot someone.
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Old August 6, 2011, 03:21 PM   #28
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Lesson One: Don't go to a state fair on a night that you might reasonably expect a higher likelihood of this sort of issue.

If I'm at a county or state fair, I'm with family, so that places some limits on my range of options. I will not - cannot - abandon my family to a mob to help out another victim. If I was alone, knowing myself, I probably would go to a victim's aid if there was even the slightest chance of rendering effective assistance.

If attacked, I WILL be in fear for my life and will defend myself with all vigor, using any and all tools at my disposal.

This commentary is from a columnist who just happened upon the scene and got clocked in the face for his troubles:

Quote:
All my wife and I could feel was sadness.

...I know I can't relate to whatever it is that incited and enraged those kids. But our conversation on the way home was that we wished we could have taken the kid who hit me home with us and shown him care, concern and support.

Here we are, living in the same city . . . . but a world apart.
"All we are saaaaaaying, is give peace a chance"

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/126956088.html
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Old August 6, 2011, 03:30 PM   #29
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@Mr James
Amen. As for that columnist, his house would have been robbed if he took that disadvantaged youth home with him. These scumbags deserve no sympathy.
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Old August 6, 2011, 07:23 PM   #30
waymore
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It's frightening ....

This thing does seem to be more and more common. Iowa state Fair is coming up and a similar thing happened last year. Racially motivated attacks.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6f4_1282757964

I believe you are not allowed to be armed at the fair here in Iowa so pretty much defenseless in a situatio like this. I may be skipping the fair this year.

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Old August 7, 2011, 12:11 AM   #31
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You can't shoot a mob and expect to come out alive. Most of us only have a couple magazines or speed loaders when we conceal carry and then you are done. Seek refuge in the best defensive position you can find, escape if you can. Trying to shoot hundreds of rampaging people in a mob is a lose, lose situation for sure that is likely to only enrage them further.
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Old August 7, 2011, 10:51 AM   #32
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Quote:
Sad state of affairs that these things should continue to happen.... Where are the police?
Police cannot be everywhere. So the better question is where are the legally armed civilians?

Quote:
You can't shoot a mob and expect to come out alive. Most of us only have a couple magazines or speed loaders when we conceal carry and then you are done. Seek refuge in the best defensive position you can find, escape if you can. Trying to shoot hundreds of rampaging people in a mob is a lose, lose situation for sure that is likely to only enrage them further.
Especially for the first 20 or so mob members.


I don't care about race or how hard the the poor bad guys had it growing up. I don't care if they are hating the color of my skin as they are attempting to injure me. What I do care about is not being injured and my family the same. I think slipping out or hiding would be ideal. If you are targeted fight and retreat if possible.

I don't go to the Florida State Fair for this reason. Plus it is illegal to go armed as it is considered a place of nuisance.
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Old August 7, 2011, 12:58 PM   #33
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I would GTFO ASAP
Indeed. I would grab my family and bail. I would shoot through or drive over any bad guys trying to keep me there.
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Old August 7, 2011, 01:40 PM   #34
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What i would do isnt on the poll.

I would run like a bat out of hell and hope nobody follows me. I would hate to have to shoot my pistol because of the attention it would bring to myself. That would be the last thing i would want, but i would if i had to....really really bad place to be
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Old August 7, 2011, 06:35 PM   #35
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I wouldn't give a mob of vandals much credit for any sort of consistent motivation. They were awful children inflicting violence because they find it fun. There are many factors at work, and if we could get to the bottom of it, we'd likely find that racial differences played less of a role than free-floating aggression and poor parental guidance.

Quote:
...I know I can't relate to whatever it is that incited and enraged those kids. But our conversation on the way home was that we wished we could have taken the kid who hit me home with us and shown him care, concern and support.

Here we are, living in the same city . . . . but a world apart.
I actually think that's a fairly healthy reaction. Maybe a bit thick on the sentimentality, but it's a better reaction than hatred or stereotyping.

Back to the original point of the thread: I would fire if I had no other option, but until that point, I would not draw or display my sidearm. If I'm up against a group that's already taken on an animalistic mob mentality, the display of a firearm might incite them to greater violence. I doubt it would dissuade them. Mobs are funny that way.

A few months back, there was a flash-mob attack on a MARTA train in Atlanta, and we had a similar discussion. In that case (a closed subway car), I posited that there was really no safe and effective way to utilize a firearm without risking the lives of bystanders. This is a bit different.

At an outdoor venue, I have the option to retreat. In this case, the use of a firearm might help expediate that process.
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Old August 7, 2011, 07:07 PM   #36
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I would like to thank the admins and mods of The Firing Line for not having closed this thread. Not all forums are equally courageous.
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Old August 7, 2011, 08:30 PM   #37
Jeremiah/Az
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As liberal as Az. gun laws are, we cannot carry @ the state fair. There are gangs everywhere there.
I do not go there.


On shooting, I would think that you would draw too much attention to yourself. If you did shoot someone, what about over penetration & hitting an innocent?
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Old August 7, 2011, 08:44 PM   #38
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hmmm...

I read that on a road exiting the fair there was a group numbering in the hundreds stopping cars and trying to gain access to the occupied vehicles and running on top of the vehicles stomping on them while also beating a minor in the street. If this was me, and there was an open lane of traffic, id probably try to build up as much speed as possible and get in the oncoming lane which was surely vacant if this road was taking cars out of the fair. Best case scenario, they move and I drive out. Worst case scenario, I run over a few "speed bumps" on the way out..... and I promise you I wouldnt lose a wink of sleep. Anyone that acts like that deserves whatever they've got coming. I guess if I hit enough of them I might wreck and then I'd be screwed, but I promise you I'm not going out without taking a few with me. My Glock holds 15+1 rounds of .40. Thats more than enough to make a dent.
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Old August 7, 2011, 08:47 PM   #39
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This is the "TACTICS and TRAINING" forum, not the "Solve the Racial Problems of America" forum.

I've deleted and edited a lot of posts on this thread so it can remain open for discussions about TACTICS and TRAINING relating to the original post.

Commentary on racism, reverse racism, speculation about racial issues as a motivation (sufficient, insufficient or superficial) for mob violence, etc. are off topic.
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Old August 7, 2011, 08:53 PM   #40
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Would head-shots perhaps be better if you must fire on an angry mob, since they might not even notice a few of their buddies going down, but splattering blood and brains and gore ought to give them something to think about?

I know you normally shoot COM because it makes a better target, but this isn't a normal situation.
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Old August 7, 2011, 08:58 PM   #41
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football

that was hilarious
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Old August 7, 2011, 08:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
I'm gonna ask my question again that somehow got deleted even tho' it had nothing todo with the racial aspects here.

Would head-shots perhaps be better if you must fire on an angry mob, since they might not even notice a few of their buddies going down, but splattering blood and brains and gore ought to give them something to think about?

I know you normally shoot COM because it makes a better target, but this isn't a normal situation.
I've read in some tactics rags and articles that if faced with a mob, gang, or any sizable group, to try to find the leader and take them out first (taze, bullet, teargas, whatever). This seems, for whatever reason, to offer the best chance of stopping the mob. I've heard it compared to shooting the lead dog in a pack of wild dogs in order to send the whole pack scattering. Unfortunately I have no source for this.
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Old August 7, 2011, 09:05 PM   #43
WANT A LCR 22LR
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I think we need a good link / contact to someone that _knows_ what motivates people in a attack gang. This might give some insight as to what to do / not do. ( I'm thinking something on the military / police level with some psychology people mixed in. )

To go even farther, it would be good to know what motivates a single attacker and what works to keep them at bay. In another thread, someone in a command voice said " I don't have anything you want! ". It seemed that this worked pretty well on the drugged up BG. I'm guessing it worked because the BG was focused on getting something and when they were told it wasn't available the focus had to change. ( Telling them to keep away won't work because they are focused on getting something. )
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Old August 7, 2011, 09:18 PM   #44
WANT A LCR 22LR
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"" I've read in some tactics rags and articles that if faced with a mob, gang, or any sizable group, to try to find the leader and take them out first ""

I'm not convinced the Milwaukee incident had a single leader. It was likely more of a common target to focus on with individuals carrying out their own operations than one person directing the show.

Some time back, there was a news report talking about mid east terror cells that ascribe to a common goal but are independent in operation. I'd think the fair incident is similar. In this case you have to go after the person attacking you rather than looking farther.
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Old August 7, 2011, 09:18 PM   #45
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splattering blood and brains and gore ought to give them something to think about
Have you ever seen a bullet wound to the head? It isn't like a Romero film. They're often quite undramatic. Besides, if you're facing a mob bent on imminent violence, you're not going to be given the time to level such a shot, nor are they likely to be looking at their comrades. Their attention will be faced solely on you, since you just produced something that makes a loud bang and a bright flash.

I can't speak for the psychological factors, but I've had occasion to encounter a mob. Once things turn violent, there is no way to diffuse or de-escalate. Retreat is pretty much the only option unless you've got truly massive firepower, and you can live with taking a great many lives.
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Old August 7, 2011, 09:41 PM   #46
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I honestly can tell you I would have no problem dispatching as many of these idiots as humanly possible. The world has no place for idiots like that.
Your job is not to execute idiots (even if they desperately need it) your job is to survive. And then don't say anything stupid when the police eventually show up!

I think if I kept that in mind, I could kill with a clear conscience. That doesn't mean it's the best tactic (but sometimes it might be)

Quote:
Have you ever seen a bullet wound to the head? It isn't like a Romero film. They're often quite undramatic.
No I haven't, that's one reason I asked; I'm trying to learn something
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Old August 7, 2011, 09:48 PM   #47
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Did I say anything about executing?

Im talking about a self defense situation. If i see a group of 300 coming at me, no matter what color, that are savagely beating everyone in sight and they make there way to me im either running them over with my car or im shooting all of them that stick their face in the hole where my window used to be that they just busted out. I cant kill them all, but Ill gladly take as many of them as i can before they get me.
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Old August 7, 2011, 10:48 PM   #48
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The mob situation is one where awareness of your surroundings is the most important .
First know when to get out of Dodge and how to get out of Dodge !! Since situations can change very quickly the very instant there is a problem leave INSTANTLY ! Don't wait to see what's happening . The gun is to be used only as a desperite last resort
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Old August 7, 2011, 11:05 PM   #49
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Did I say anything about executing?
You kind of did, maybe. That's all it takes to get the investigators focused on you instead of the mob. My point was just that what you say describing the event afterwards can make a big difference in how you come out legally (assuming you survive in the first place.) Choose your words carefully and sparingly, that's all.
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Old August 7, 2011, 11:36 PM   #50
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Having to shoot your way out

I wonder if instead of head shots, would knee capping be better? Would kneeling and shooting knee high get you more "buck for your bang". With modern ammo and over penetration you could probably put on the ground with each shot between 2 and 6 to 8 people.all screaming their heads off. The screaming of 12 or 14 shot people in the same area should slow any but the very very stupid. And you would (with a high cap mag) still have about 10 rounds for the very very stupid. You would be down lower so the crowd might not see you very well. Just a idea, maybe stupid but what the heck. As far as shooting "innocents" we all know if you were in the middle of that mob you are already guilty.

Also if you have had to do something like this, as soon as the LEO says hello the first words out of your mouth "I wish to speak to a lawyer." And that is only thing you say unless you are asking for medical treatment. And you keep repeating "I wish to speak to a lawyer". I mean what is the use of all these criminals getting US all of these rights if we do not use them.

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