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Old July 21, 2011, 08:44 PM   #1
slammedsi
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45. Loading troubles..

been Loading 230 LRN for a while now, With out troubles. I was given a large lot of 200Gr LSWC. Was trying to work a load. But kept getting a stove pipe which didnt allow the slide to close. I pulled the barrel and did the OAL test to make sure i was at the right coal. I was at 1.245, After the checking for the proper coal it looks to be a tad short. As there isnt much left to crimp to. In fact i can squeeze the loaded round and shove the bullet into the case. Anyone have anytips? Im using a Moded Auto Ordanace with a wilson combat barrel. Also using Range brass of all the same length, 200gr lswc CCI primers. 5.2grs of Unique. Any help yall? If ive missed something let me know.
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Old July 21, 2011, 08:50 PM   #2
chris in va
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Some 45's just don't like SWC profiles.
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Old July 21, 2011, 08:54 PM   #3
slammedsi
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Ya i was hoping this wouldnt be the case.
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Old July 21, 2011, 09:43 PM   #4
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I load to 1.250. If I go up close to 1.265 my Ruger P345 will not go into battery. Load closer to 1.250 and you might get a little grip on the crimp, but you should not be able to push the bullet back into the case with fingers!

I would hope your Wilson barrel would be able to chamber 200 grain LSWC bullets. Load as long as your barrel plink test will allow.
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Old July 21, 2011, 10:16 PM   #5
slammedsi
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When testing the barrel for case OAL I get 1.215. If i push the OAL out to 1.250 it sticks the case out of the barrel about .035... I haven't tried to push it out to 1.250 to check for function. Will do this in the morning. But i dont feel it would make a difference as its only .005 of a difference. Ive seem to have gotten myself confused... Where to now? Should i try longer? Can too short cause it to not go into battery?

Cliff Notes:
Loaded first batch at 1.245. Seems to be to long.
Gauged barrel for case OAL and came up with 1.215
At 1.215 there isnt enough led to crimp to and the bullet can easely be pushed back into the case.
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Old July 22, 2011, 05:42 AM   #6
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Sometimes, stove piping is caused by not enough powder charge to push the slide all the way back. I would function check the pistol manually with the slide locked and releasing it with rounds in the magazine. If it feeds/chambers/extracts several rounds reliably when the slide is released, you need to increase the powder charge. If it does not, then you need to adjust the OAL/taper crimp until it does then check to see if you need to adjust the powder charge.

Most 200 gr SWC nose profile follow the "contact" profile of 230 gr RN, but not always. I usually do the following for a new semi-auto bullet:

1. Verify proper taper crimp by dropping a dummy round (no powder/primer) in the chamber with barrel out of the pistol - it should drop in freely with a "clink". Many people use .469"-.470" in tight chambers but I use this for jacketed bullet and .471"-.472" (about .020" over the diameter of the bullet) for lead bullets.

2. Determine the max OAL by dropping a dummy round in the chamber and spin to see if the bullet nose/shoulder makes contact with rifling. Starting at the SAAMI max OAL of 1.275", incrementally decrease the OAL until you can spin the bullet without getting marks from rifling. 200 gr SWC I have used fed/chambered well at 1.250"-1.265" OAL in various 1911s.

3. Determine the ideal OAL by function check. Starting with the max OAL, load the dummy round in the magazine and release the slide manually. Incrementally decrease the OAL (say by .005") until you have reliable feeding/chambering from the magazine.

4. Work up the powder charge from starting charge until you have reliable slide cycling and good accuracy.
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Old July 22, 2011, 06:30 AM   #7
MOshooter65202
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As others have said could be the OAL of the cartridge or not enough powder charge possibly??
I have a Para-Ordanance P14-45 stock barrel,I cast and shoot a 200 gr. swc with 6 grs. of Unique for target loads with cartridge OAL of 1.255.When I first tried loading the 200 gr. swc with lymann's OAL for the 200 gr. swc of I believe 1.135? Nothin' but stovepipe city at 1.135!
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Old July 22, 2011, 07:56 AM   #8
mehavey
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Quote:
But kept getting a stove pipe which didnt allow the slide to close.
A stove pipe is where the ejected shell fails to completely clear the action and comes to rest jammed upright as the slide closes. What you describe sounds more like the cartridge fails to properly enter the feed ramp upon loading, not jam upon ejection after firing. [ Is that right?]

If so, the problem is not on the OAL (per se), but the critical relationship of the bullet's rounded shoulder to the sharper lip of the case when seating. It needs to be a smooth/almost countinuous radius. See below:


Second, a traditional crimp should never be used on the ACP. Rather the case is merely taper-squeezed into the bullet slightly to preserve the sharp case lip engaging the barrel's internal ledge and headspacing correctly.

Third, I have trouble visualizing where the truncated cone of a SWC's nose would bump up against the rifling under normal seating to indicate excessive OAL interference. Can you give us a pic of the assembled cartridge as you've loaded them?
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Old July 22, 2011, 08:40 AM   #9
slammedsi
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mehavey, That is exactly right. Its while loading another round into the chamber, that it gets jammed. Not allowing the slide to fully close on the next round.

I will take a photo of the rounds when i get home from work today.
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Old July 22, 2011, 09:02 AM   #10
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If your powder charge is light, the slide may be barely getting behind the next round, then not have enough runup to complete chambering it. It's also possible the gun needs a little attention. It's not uncommon to need the chamber mouth set in so the bottom edge is correctly positioned with respect to the feed ramp in counterbattery. Other reliability steps may need to be taken. Some replacement barrels require more installation attention than others.
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Old July 22, 2011, 09:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slammedsi
mehavey, That is exactly right. Its while loading another round into the chamber, that it gets jammed. Not allowing the slide to fully close on the next round.
The finished round may be rubbing the chamber at the case neck (not enough taper crimp) or the case base (not enough full-length sizing).

Drop a resized case (no bullet) in the chamber. If it does not drop in freely, the case is not being fully sized - adjust your resizing die until the case drops in freely.

If the resized case drops in the chamber freely but the finished round does not, then the case neck after the bullet is seated may be rubbing the chamber. Apply enough taper crimp until the finished round drops in freely (for tighter barrels, you may need .469"-.470" taper crimp).
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Old July 22, 2011, 09:25 AM   #12
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That's a good point. Especially since the bullets can be thumbed in deeper. Not enough grip. You might also try a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die to be sure you have fit.
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Old July 22, 2011, 10:16 AM   #13
mehavey
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"Plonk" Test Rules

Reading the OP's post again, it sounds exactly like what we encountered w/ my son's 1911 last weekend. It did not jam on the feed ramp (as if often the case w/ SWC's), but the slide would not fully close.

Pulling the barrel out, I found the rounds would not fully/freely drop into the chamber by their own weight (to produce the req'd "plonk" sound.)

We went back to the house, pulled out the RCBS* dies, and gradually screwed the die down to squeeze in the case into the bullet and reduce the neck diameter in a tapered* fashion. When we reached the point that the required "plonk" was produced (but not so much that the case missed the headspace step), we locked the ring and re-sized(crimped) all the rest to the same degree.

No problem after that.

*RCBS carbide dies. It appears RCBS has at last adopted a useful taper-crimp profile

Last edited by mehavey; July 22, 2011 at 12:15 PM.
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Old July 22, 2011, 10:59 AM   #14
carsinc
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200 gr lswc

mehavy is correct on the crimp. BTW, good photo comparison of bullet to finished round.

For bullseye target shooting I load 200 gr LSWC Penn Bullets over 4.0 gr Bullseye with an OAL=1.235". I use a 12# spring and buffer pad in my 5" 1911 with no feed or ejection problems.

Get a headspace guage as this will identify finished rounds that may not feed properly.
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Old July 22, 2011, 11:59 PM   #15
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Did anyone mention the danger of bullet set-back and the fact that the OP might be swaging the bullet down in diameter? Quite likely the expander if too small or the OP is simply belling the case mouth and NOT expanding.
My COL is 1.23-1.247".
Do not shoot any rounds that have any bullet-setback with thumb pressure.
Stovepipe? the fired case or the loaded round? Did you make up a couple of inert "dummy" rounds to establish your COL or just used some vision of what it should be?
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Old July 23, 2011, 05:12 PM   #16
slammedsi
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Def, Loaded up a few for dummy rounds. Loaded up several sets of different OAL rounds today and tested them out.

Loaded 8 to 1.215 (This is the OAL my barrel test shows.)

8 At 1.225,1.235 and 1.250. After shooting them all and testing for accuracy, I had at least one jam per set of 8. While shooting the set of 1.225 I feel had the best accuracy and only one jam. It was while shooting the first round out of the clip, It ejected the brass fine but upon loading the next round into the chamber it jamed with the round half way in. Pics included. Where to next?
Was using RB brass, 5.5 Grains of Unique, CCI primers, and Hunter Supply 200Gr LSWC.


This rounds OAL is 1.215. Just like the Barrel test showed to be. But there is just not enough to crimp to. Even using a taper crimp.



This is how the rounds have been jamming while entering the chamber.


This is the best accuarcy i could get while off hand. 30 yards. Note the use of a 6 inch sanding disk for a target haha. Ran out of sticky targets..
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Old July 23, 2011, 05:34 PM   #17
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If 230 gr RN feed/chamber well in the same pistol, I would check the extractor/magazine spring next.

The bullet nose don't "slide up" the ramp into the chamber but "bumps" the ramp and heads towards the chamber and when the base rim of the case clears the magazine lips, the pressure from the mag spring pushes the case base up into the extractor, lining up straight with the chamber and gets pushed into the chamber.

If the case base rim does not freely slide up the breach face into the extractor or don't get pushed up hard enough by the magazine spring, the round may hang in the chamber like the picture shown. Do you have a different magazine you can try (perhaps one with new/stronger mag spring)?

Just to be sure, the finished rounds do drop in freely into the chamber with a "clink"?
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Old July 23, 2011, 05:43 PM   #18
slammedsi
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Yes and yes. Ive tried Wilson combat mags, Stock mags, and the ten round chip McCormick mags. With the same results. The Finished rounds drop in with a good solid thud.
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Old July 23, 2011, 05:52 PM   #19
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When we had match 1911s that didn't feed SWC bullets well due to tight chambers, we "gently" enlarged the chamber by sanding/polishing the chambers while function checking the feed/chambering from the magazine (we did not touch the ramp other than finish polishing).

Of course, this was done after we made sure the finished rounds were all within specs and others parts of the pistol were checked.

You may need to consider enlarging the chamber.
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Old July 23, 2011, 05:58 PM   #20
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Before you do anything else, can you load the same SWC bullet to 1.25" OAL with .470" taper crimp and repeat the barrel drop test then manual function test from the magazine (lock the slide back and release by using the slide lock)?

This is the spec we used to verify the proper function check before we enlarged the chamber.
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Old July 23, 2011, 06:23 PM   #21
mehavey
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Quote:
slammedsi's pic:


That bullet is seated waaaaaaaaay (way) too deep. (and the crimp is borderline to where the mouth might miss the headspace step in the chamber.) Forget any OAL issue for now and use this seating profile below:



Screw the seat/crimp die body down [only] enough to pass the 'plonk' test and you should be good to go.


BREAK BREAK:
Just for grins, I went downstairs and loaded a couple of dummy rounds with some ProofMark 185 SWC's that I dug out of the back room here in VA. (Last week's 1911 loading session with my son had been up at Ft Lewis.) If anything was going to be trouble w/ the very tight 1911 I rebuilt to comp standards three years ago, those short-nosed 185's were going to be it.

bottom line was slick-as-a-whistle chambering.

Note the sliver of lead left exposed at the shoulder and the absence of noticeable crimping angle. Everything is squeezed it, but left flat. The secret is that exposed lead shoulder which effectively guides and lubricates the bullet's turn from the magazine angle to the straight-in chamber.

I say again.... IGNORE any OAL dimensions and seat as shown.

Last edited by mehavey; July 23, 2011 at 07:41 PM.
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Old July 23, 2011, 07:09 PM   #22
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Lyman 49th edition list two bullet profiles for a 200gr lsw.
1st is 452460 with a 1.161 OAL and unique powder from 5.0-- 7.5
2nd is 452630 with a 1.235 OAL and unique powder from 6.0-- 7.5


Your bullet would fit the 2nd profile with 1.235 OAL with a starting load of 6.0 not the 5.2 or 5.5 grs you are currently using.

I see a recipe in the hornady manual for 200 gswc with a starting load of 5.3but that does not fit your bullets profile.
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Old July 23, 2011, 08:01 PM   #23
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Dug around some more and found a short case of commercial Match ammo I was using back in the early 70s (when on a military shooting team and a real person)**

Note the degree of exposed bullet shoulder again.

It is essential





** Those were also the days I'd just carry my gunbox on board commercial aircraft and strap it into the seat next to me. Think about it.....
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Old July 23, 2011, 08:09 PM   #24
slammedsi
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The Speer manual that i use says that its a starting load of 4.8 for min, and 5.5 for max. But says in bold that the max charge is not necessarily the max but is held to normal velocity for target shooting. The 5.5gr was some where in the 850fps range. I was going to get the cycling problem fixed before i went up on charge.
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Old July 23, 2011, 08:13 PM   #25
slammedsi
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mehavey: I noted that while loading at 1.225 it looks exactly like the rounds you have posted.. Might try and load a few more just a hair longer, Say 1.230 see where that takes me. On your loads, did you even use Unique?
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