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Old July 30, 2011, 04:45 PM   #1
iMagUdspEllr
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Support hand slipping

I have been shooting hand guns for a while now. I feel that I have gotten rid of most if not all of the newbie shooting ticks. I have even been able to manage 2" groups at ten yards with cheap bulk ammo with all of my handguns.

However, I have no idea how to keep my support hand on the gun. I see people like Todd Jarret and Rob Leatham shoot their guns like .22s and their hands stayed glued to the gun with the thumbs forward grip. I have read and read article after article and I am fairly certain that I am gripping the gun the same way they are yet after every shot regardless if it is 9mm or .45 ACP my front sight always ends up at a 45 degree pointing up and I have to re-grip with my support hand. I don't understand.

I have no idea how they manage to keep the support hand on the gun. I can't put very much force on the gun at all with my support hand in this position. I can't even rack the slide on my gun (with just the support hand holding it) because my support hand can't grip it hard enough to resist just my hand trying to rack the slide. So of course there would be no way for the support hand to stay on the gun when I actually fired it.

I want to learn how to shoot faster because my accuracy is pretty good... but I don't see how I can do that if I can't keep both my hands on the gun. I am thinking that I might have to do some sort of push/pull force with my hands just to keep my support hand on the gun... but this tends to make it more difficult to aim.

I will attach pictures of my grip so you guys can see if I'm doing something wrong or not.

Thank you for your time and replies.
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File Type: jpg 2011-07-30_16-25-22_843.jpg (244.0 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg 2011-07-30_16-27-12_884.jpg (241.6 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg 2011-07-30_16-27-24_885.jpg (240.6 KB, 91 views)
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Old July 30, 2011, 05:34 PM   #2
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I don't shoot that type of competition, so I'm not absolutely sure of this. I would place a small bet though, that they re-load their ammunition so the recoil is as low it can be and still take down the target.
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Old July 30, 2011, 05:40 PM   #3
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I'm not an instructor or anything, but your weak hand looks to be way too far forward- your thumb is past the trigger guard...
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Old July 30, 2011, 05:45 PM   #4
TylerD45ACP
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I think that may be the problem too your grip looks good just pull it back a tad if you know what I mean.
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Old July 30, 2011, 05:57 PM   #5
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Personally, that whole high thumb/parallel thumb schtick doesn't work for me, but I know a lot of instructors teach it and I know many competitive shooters use it. One point is that you should also be doing a bit of push-pull, or what the (very) old Charles Atlas ads used to call "dynamic tension." You aren't just holding the gun with your strong hand and wrapping your support hand around it and doing nothing with the support hand. The strong hand pushes forward (slightly), and the support hand pulls back equally to keep things in equilibrium. Not full force -- you're not pushing and pulling with all your strength, to the point your muscles are trembling with effort and fatigue after a half second. But ... not just throwing your hands up there and doing nothing but supporting the weight of the gun vertically.

Next point -- there's a thread (I think on this site) asking who works out with weights to prepare for shooting. That's a point. You don't want to crush the gun, but a grip needs to be firm. Ever meet Todd Jarret? The guy has the biggest forearms I think I've ever seen. Shake hands with him, and you know your hand has been shaken.

Lastly, if that grip isn't working for you, try something else. Use your single-handed grip, then wrap the support hand around and OVER the strong hand thumb. If you remove your support hand from the pistol and try to shoot it with your hold, you'd probably drop it on the first shot. Try a natural ("revolver" hold, and use the support hand to lock that hold even tighter. See how that works.

I also agree with the observation that your support hand is too far forward. Bring it back by one finger joint.
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Old July 30, 2011, 06:02 PM   #6
iMagUdspEllr
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Pulling my support hand back a little bit still doesn't seem to affect how well my hand stays on the gun. I promise to try it when I go to the range tomorrow and let you guys know.
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Old July 30, 2011, 06:06 PM   #7
iMagUdspEllr
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I just saw your post after I replied Aguila Blanca. Thanks I will try those techniques too. I actually can shoot with the current hold with just my strong hand... very secure. The weak hand is the problem. It just slips off. I will push/pull and hopefully that will keep it planted.
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Old July 30, 2011, 06:20 PM   #8
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Umm, Todd Jarrett and Rob Leatham (The Great One) aren't shooting powder puff loads. Trust me. Mag, you need to establish your grip with your strong hand and then wrap your support hand around your strong hand. If the support hand is slipping off then you're not gripping the strong hand firmly enough or you may need some rosin to increase the friction coefficient. Your support hand shouldn't really have very much contact with the gun because your strong hand should be covering almost all of the gun's surface up. The only thing left to get your support hand on is a portion of the grip panel. Where the butt of both hands meet on the MSH there should be no gap, the two hands should be firmly butted against each other. You should have an even amount of pressure on the gun with both hands (about the force you would use to hold a hammer when driving a nail. Not much really) It sounds like you may need to do some strengthening of your hand if you cannot hold the gun firmly enough to rack the slide or perhaps your grip is simply incorrect. It will take considerably more force to hold the gun and rack it than it will to fire it with control. There is a really great book on this subject written by Brain Enos titled Practical Shooting - Beyond the Fundamentals. Find it and read it.

Last edited by drail; July 30, 2011 at 06:41 PM.
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Old July 30, 2011, 06:26 PM   #9
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Lastly, if that grip isn't working for you, try something else.
I think this is may be your answer. Some of us do better with alternate grips, no matter what the "experts" say. Its nothing thats written in stone. Use whatever lets you shoot how you want.

Ive been shooting the thumbs forward grip for a couple of years now, and it does seem to offer better control than the thumb over thumb grip I used to use. Its a little awkward at first to get used to, but it now that Im used to it, its natural to acquire. You do need to still give the old "push/pull" tension with it as you do with the other two hand holds. If your fingers arent indexed and youre not applying rearward pressure, your weak hand is going to move. You dont need a death grip, but it should be firm.

From your description, it sounds like you might be stopping mid stream to evaluate your sights, instead of following through and putting (pushing) the gun, and sights back to where you were looking. I have yet to find a "grip" that allows my gun to remain on target after the shot. Theres always some readjustment, even with a natural point of aim. Some are just better at reducing the amount of adjustment.
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Old July 30, 2011, 06:31 PM   #10
drail
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With a correct grip and neutral pressure in both hands the front sight will track straight up and return to where it was when the shot broke with no other correction or effort from you. If it doesn't, then your grip is pushing the gun to one side. The key to accurate speed shooting is to find all of the little things that you're doing that are actually making you move the gun when the shot breaks and then eliminate them.
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Old July 31, 2011, 02:48 PM   #11
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Your hand positions look near perfect to me.
So you must be loosening your grip as the trigger is being pressed.
Think "follow through."
Maintain your grip after the round goes off, instead of letting it go.
Remember that the support hand is supposed to supply something like 3/4ths of the grip strength.
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Old July 31, 2011, 03:17 PM   #12
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To meet the requirements for major caliber in competitions, you ammo actual performance needs to meet specific criteria. Todd Jarrett is not using some very low charged ammo like bulls-eye competitors.

Your trigger finger and support thumb should be about the same distance on the frame. It appears your support thumb is ahead of your trigger finger. Todd Jarrett also uses more of an angle with his support hand.

You may need to work on the strength of your hands. An inexpensive way is to squeeze a tennis ball and then maintain that pressure. Release the pressure and repeat. Personally, I use more pressure with my support hand than my strong hand. Proper balance, stance and a slight bend in the arms also helps with controlling recoil. Do not lock your arms. Let your arms act as shock absorbers. The same for the legs. Have a slight bend in the legs and do not lock the knees. Have the majority of the weight on the strong side leg. Here is a link of Todd Jarret that may be helpful to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUVHNJNPLHc
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Old July 31, 2011, 06:59 PM   #13
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i always lock the left tip of my middle finger between the knuckles of my right middle and ring finger...this gives me a strong consistant grip.
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Old July 31, 2011, 07:19 PM   #14
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Picture 2 tells the story. Your right thumb should be behind the second joint of your left thumb. You'll have proper purchase of the piece. I've learned over the years that the harder you hold, the worse your accuracy will get. Have a firm, relaxed grip and roll with the piece.
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Old July 31, 2011, 07:37 PM   #15
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The support hand should be providing the "firm grip". The shooting hand shouldn't be firm, more of a hand shape grip. Gripping hard with your shooting hand will not allow you to squeeze the trigger without disturbing the sight alignment.

Try relaxing the grip somewhat with your shooting hand and using a firm grip with your support hand.

A firm grip will not slip. If it does, then you need to work on your hand strength.
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Old July 31, 2011, 08:47 PM   #16
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If all else fails, try holding the gun the way it was designed to be held: in your dominant hand (singular) rather than both hands.
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Old July 31, 2011, 09:20 PM   #17
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If all else fails, try holding the gun the way it was designed to be held: in your dominant hand (singular) rather than both hands.
That's a good funny from the Bullseye guy. I have found though that sometimes I can have a flinch with a 2 hand grip and not one handed. My bullseye scores don't quite show that though.

Others have said it, the support hand grips, the "strong" hand manipulates the trigger in a hopefully relaxed manner. I come from a USPSA background and have benefited greatly from people such as the aforementioned TJ telling me everything I did wrong. I end up in a little bit of a reverse grip, the support arm hand is rolled around to the point that the elbow is locked out. Depending on stance sometimes the strong side elbow is flexed, sometimes not. The telling thing for me is I prefer to take my wedding band off my strong hand(important clue there) because I crush the hand so hard.
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Old July 31, 2011, 09:30 PM   #18
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Wow, I see your problem right away! You shoot left handed...
Just kidding. I agree that your off hand looks a little too far forward on the gun, pull it back a tad.
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Old July 31, 2011, 11:06 PM   #19
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"...people like Todd Jarret and Rob Leatham..." The pros practice every day and have very strong hands. Olympic shooters, of any discipline, spend as much or more time, in the gym than they do shooting. Upper body tone makes a huge difference too.
"...An inexpensive way is to squeeze a tennis ball..." Or buy a cheap rubber ball(one of the red, white and blue balls works well, but any rubber ball will do) and cut it in half and squeeze that. Either will be less expensive than those squeeze a spring things.
Then you push with the strong hand and pull with the support hand.
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Old August 1, 2011, 09:40 AM   #20
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Discern and others wrote/alluded to - "To meet the requirements for major caliber in competitions, you ammo actual performance needs to meet specific criteria. Todd Jarrett is not using some very low charged ammo like bulls-eye competitors." My Bad! Like I said, I don't shoot that type of competition, that was only "my logic". Apologies to the greats, wasn't trying to diminish their amazing shooting feats.
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Old August 1, 2011, 09:55 AM   #21
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This is a great topic, and I want to post more on it later.

This may sound weird but I was experiencing this and I found that I needed to keep the oil and sweat off my hands. I was shooting at a range with poor AC and after I started to sweat a little bit my non shooting hand was slipping off my shooting hand. I was using my shirt to wipe off both hands.

Now I make sure I wash my hands thouroughly before going shoting and I bring some alcohol wipes with me and a towel. If my hands are getting oily (not from gun oil but just from my skin secreting oil) I wipe them down with an alcohol towellete and then dry with a towel.
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Old August 1, 2011, 10:00 AM   #22
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The OP's hand placement looks good, however, the proper way to use the two handed grip is that the weak hand, not the shooting hand is what is holding the pistol. You should be able to move the heal of your shooting hand away from the pistol and still have a good grip on it.
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Old August 1, 2011, 12:00 PM   #23
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I had a regular exercise regimin that was cycling, pushups/situps, leg lifts - the usual stuff. When I picked up a Glock 34 I had a lot of trouble shooting it so, I now have a regular exercise regimin designed to strengthen my grip and be able to hold that Glock out there steady. I do running and cycling when I have time but my exercise regimin now is:

Hammer curls:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...ammerCurl.html

Ulnar dumbell:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...arFlexion.html

Wrist curl:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...WristCurl.html

Reverse wrist curl:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...WristCurl.html

Crush grip:



Wrist roller:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...Extention.html

And I also work out with these things called Meridian Balls or Bao Ding balls. I have some large carbon steel balls that are pretty heavy - somewhere around 1.25 lbs each. The idea is to rotate them clockwise and then counter clock wise in your hand without the balls touching.

The guy in this video makes it look easy, but it's not. And when I do this 200 times with 1¼ lb steel balls - all the tiny muscles in my hands are sore - which is a sign that they are getting worked out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-bGP...eature=related

I notice all these things are increasing my forearm, wrist and finger strength and it is paying off with more accurate shooting. I noticed an improvement in my dry firing follow through in about 2 weeks.
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Old August 1, 2011, 12:04 PM   #24
iMagUdspEllr
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@C0untZer0: Wow! Thank you for the gold mine of information. Thank you very much!
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Old August 1, 2011, 12:12 PM   #25
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Also - when I just do hammer curls - I really don't feel anything in my forearms - it's mostly my biceps doing the work. So I save my hammer curls for last in my workout. When I do that, my forarms feel like they're on fire when I'm doing the hammer curls. So anyway I think my forearms are getting more out of it if I do my hammer curls last, but that's just me...
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