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Old July 25, 2011, 09:02 PM   #1
AnasaziDan
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.223 Full Length Sizer constricts case mouth. Case won't accept bullet.

My Lee .223 Full Length Sizer die constricts the mouth of the case so that the case will not accept a bullet for seating. The Lee Rifle Charging Die used with the Lee Auto-Disk Powder Measure makes the mouth even smaller resembling a crimp. My once fired Federal cases prior to sizing accept the bullet just fine. I am using a Lee Pro 1000. I have backed the sizer out some, but that has not had an effect, that is, unless I have not backed it out sufficiently. I've tried 1/4 turn and 1/2 turn. I have tried with two different Lee sizers but each restricts the mouth. Any ideas about how to correct this are welcome.

Thanks,

Dan
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Old July 25, 2011, 10:12 PM   #2
mehavey
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Which die set are you using?

Last edited by mehavey; July 25, 2011 at 10:18 PM.
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Old July 25, 2011, 10:59 PM   #3
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Do you think that the bullet should just slip right in? You ARE inside chamfering, aren't you?

The bullet has to be pressed into the neck, it needs to be forced in so that it won't fall out.

Are you using the the rifle charging die? If it seems to be closing the mouth of the case, you have the charging die screwed down too far.
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:12 PM   #4
Jim243
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Quote:
The Lee Rifle Charging Die used with the Lee Auto-Disk Powder Measure makes the mouth even smaller resembling a crimp
No it is not, you have the die set too low and are crushing the cases. The rifle charging die does not crimp or expand the cases. It is made to just raise the Auto-Disk Powder Measure. Any damage to cases is your fault not the equipment.

And what are you talking about the "sizers"???? Are you talking about the full length resizing/decaping die??? That sounds like you do not have your stem down to where it should be to decap and open the neck enough. Watch the videos on Lee's website. If you are neck sizing the cases only without the stem, then you have that die too low as well.


Jim
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:25 PM   #5
AnasaziDan
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Quote:
"mehavey has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - .223 Full Length Sizer constricts case mouth. Case won't accept bullet. - in the Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting forum of TheFiringLine Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://TheFiringLine.com/forums/show...3&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Huh?
You mean the expander ball in the sizing die doesn't open the neck up ?
mehavey - yes, that is the issue exactly.

snuffy -
Quote:
The bullet has to be pressed into the neck, it needs to be forced in so that it won't fall out.
No amount of "pressing" will allow the bullet to enter the case far enough to allow the bullet to be held so that it can be raised into the bullet seating die. No I have not done an "inside chamfering" but prior to sizing the case, a bullet slips in easily. I'll give a try with "inside chamfering". Yes, I am using a rifle charging die if the one sent with the Pro 1000 configuration and dies for .223 Remington were correct from the vendor. I will try backing out the charging die. I am presuming that the charging die should not kiss the shell plate carrier. I had used the die depth as was sent from the "factory or vendor". I can't find any guidance regarding setting the depth of the charging die. Any suggestions?

Thanks
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:34 PM   #6
Jim243
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Quote:
Any suggestions?

Read the instructions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The botton of the ram inside the die is flat so it can be used with any rifle case. Try this, run a resized case up with the press, then put in the rifle powder through die and screw it down till the ram is pushed just one inch above the top of the die, then bring the press ram (& case) back down, then screw in the auto-disk, bring the case back up and adjust till the disk opening is just above the opening on the auto-disk, then lock down everything.

Jim

No they are not set, they have to be adjusted for your cases.

You do not have the decaping rod down enough to size the neck when the case is pulled out of the die on the down stroke.
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Last edited by Jim243; July 25, 2011 at 11:46 PM.
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:42 PM   #7
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Not being a Lee system user, guys, I am still confused.

How is this system designed to work wherein the case & neck are supposedly sized, but then the neck is also supposed to be subsequently opened back up to accept the bullet?

I'm just a single stager, so what I'm reading doesn't make sense in the normal bottleneck 2-die sizer/expander-seater/crimper world.
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Old July 25, 2011, 11:53 PM   #8
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Mchavey - they work the same as yours, as you bring the case up the die resizes the neck, as you bring the case down it runs over the expander portion of the decaping rod. He is either not using the decaping rod or has it set wrong.

Jim

My question at this point is he using .224 bullets or what?
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Old July 26, 2011, 12:12 AM   #9
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Now you guys have got me started.

Dan,

I do not understand, you said you were using the Lee Auto-Disk for your powder measure? It will not drop enough powder for your 223 rifle cases. You need to use a Lee Pro-Auto Disk with the Double Disk Set inorder to get a sufficient load of powder for your 223 cases.

Please double check what came with your Lee 1000 Progressive press. Did you purchase the press with all the 223 parts or did you buy a different caliber and are missing some of the things that you need to load 223?

Jim
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Last edited by Jim243; July 26, 2011 at 12:19 AM.
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Old July 26, 2011, 12:14 AM   #10
AnasaziDan
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Yup, using .224 bullets

Jim243 - Yup, I am using .224 bullets. All the advice is helping. At this point I am not certain if the "inside chamfering" or backing out both the .223 Full Length Sizer and "rifle powder through die" made the difference. However, I was able to seat a bullet. I just need to do more tweaking with the dies until everything looks right.

Thanks
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Old July 26, 2011, 12:22 AM   #11
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OK it looks like you are going in the right direction, I don't think I would have suggested a progressive press for someone's first, but you should be OK and yes progressives that a lot of tweaking to get them just right, also be carefull and go slow on the progressive at first since it does 4 or 5 things at once and needs a little more attention.

Good luck
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Old July 26, 2011, 12:45 AM   #12
AnasaziDan
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Quote:
I do not understand, you said you were using the Lee Auto-Disk for your powder measure? It will not drop enough powder for your 223 rifle cases. You need to use a Lee Pro-Auto Disk with the Double Disk Set inorder to get a sufficient load of powder for your 223 cases.

Please double check what came with your Lee 1000 Progressive press.

Jim
Jim, My bad. Learning all the nomenclature as well as the mechanics of progressive reloading has me scrambling.

I am using the "Lee Pro-Auto Disk with the Double Disk Set"; however, when the vendor shipped the press it was without the "Double Disk Kit". When I attempted to set up a 25 grain charge for Hogdon H4895 with what was shipped, I discovered that I would need the "Double Disk Kit" and I ordered one. Ironically, when the "Double Disk Kit" arrived the instructions with it were for the Lee Auto-Disk.

I've weighed the disk charges and these are consistent at 25.1 grains. However, using Hogdon H4895 seems to fill the .223 case above the case shoulder and into the neck. Reading C. Rodney James' "The ABCs of Reloading" regarding pressure (page 36) gives me some concern about a case that full.

Thanks
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Old July 26, 2011, 01:10 AM   #13
Jim243
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No need for concern, if you are using a 55 grain bullet. The H4895 is extruded powder and will settle into your case with pleanty of room, it is NOT a compressed charge. I use it all the time as well as 25 grains of H335 for that load (for an AR rifle).

Not knowing what bullet you are using I am guessing, but the max charge for a 55 grain bullet would be 26.0 grains. At an OAL of 2.200.

No worry you are well under a max charge.
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Old July 26, 2011, 07:21 AM   #14
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No worry you are well under a max charge.
Jim
I'm worried just reading.
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Old July 26, 2011, 07:33 AM   #15
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Looking at both Speer#13 and running against Quickload, 55gr anything/25.5gr H4895 is a full case (even compressed) and is pretty much a max'd out (52,000psi) load. (Sierra doesn't include H4895 for it's AR15 listing, but does show 26.1gr specifcally for bolt actions)

While "critical" Max is rifle dependent, did you really mean to start there, particularly as this is based on a volume (as opposed to a weighed) measure?
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Old July 26, 2011, 07:44 AM   #16
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If your sizer makes the mouth too small for a bullet you could have the wrong decapping pin in the die. The one on the left is what you are looking for as it has an expander built in to ensure proper size while pulling the case out of the die. A pistol decapper on the right does not have this as they are generally expanded at the powder drop station.


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Old July 26, 2011, 09:08 AM   #17
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I'm worried just reading.

Then get the Hodgdon reloading manual or better yet go to the Hodgdon website. I have used that load for over three years now. And both me and the guns are still here. If anyone has a concern they can start at 24.0 grains and work up from there.

Jim
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Old July 26, 2011, 10:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
At this point I am not certain if the "inside chamfering" or backing out both the .223 Full Length Sizer and "rifle powder through die" made the difference. However, I was able to seat a bullet. I just need to do more tweaking with the dies until everything looks right.
You can NOT back out the full length sizer die at all. It HAS to be down to where the bottom of the die hits the shell plate. This will make the shells fit your chamber, or at least it should.

Your problem started with the rifle charging die bottoming out, closing the mouth of the case. And your failure to inside chamfer the case, and thinking the bullet should enter the case a little before the seater pressed it home.

It sounds like you bought this press used with all the dies screwed in it but not adjusted. That would not confuse me, but I've been loading for 50 years. On the other hand, if I had started loading on a progressive 50 years ago, I would have been real confused. Back then, there was no great resource called the internet. All I had was a crusty old retired teacher that sold reloading components out of his basement, under a liquor store!

Your best bet is to run one case through at a time to get the feel of each station as it does one case, and get that station set correctly. THEN you could run it with all stations full in a true progressive state.
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Old July 26, 2011, 10:41 AM   #19
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Old July 26, 2011, 10:47 AM   #20
mehavey
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On a more serious note....

Can the Lee system spoken of here be used as a single stage?

If so, do this NOW and learn/get comfortable w/ the basics and how everything works (or doesn't) one step at a time.
It won't cost you that much extra effort, and many (most?) here run single stage anyway -- especially for rifle.

BTW: If all this is for gas gun, and you are still about "tweaking" such critical areas as sizing dies & seating, you are headed for disappointment (if not potential disaster)
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Old July 26, 2011, 01:13 PM   #21
Miata Mike
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Quote:
On a more serious note....

Can the Lee system spoken of here be used as a single stage?
Kind of as Snuffy mentioned, AnasaziDan needs to feed one case at a time until all dies are dialed in on his Lee Pro 1000 press. If priming on the press, I would do one case at a time until maybe 50 in a row are produced exactly as desired. I have been hand priming with mine as one missed primer with 25 grains of ball powder will make quite a mess!
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Old July 26, 2011, 03:23 PM   #22
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I made the mistake once of buying .227 instead of .224
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Old July 26, 2011, 04:35 PM   #23
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm worried just reading.


Then get the Hodgdon reloading manual or better yet go to the Hodgdon website. I have used that load for over three years now. And both me and the guns are still here. If anyone has a concern they can start at 24.0 grains and work up from there.

Jim
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Sorry Jim was not clear, my concern is with the original poster, I see far too many people purchase an AR or other semi-auto not familiar with reloading and want high volume reloads, just a bad combination IMO, not criticizing your load data.

New to reloading start slow use single stage or turret, read read and more reading,it's a fun sport stay safe.
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Old July 27, 2011, 11:39 PM   #24
AnasaziDan
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Some more background for your advice

Jim243 - The bullet is a Hornady VARMINT .224 #2266 55 GR SP W/C that was sent as a gift with the Hornady Cam-lock trimmer I purchased. I am still looking for a supply of decent quality .223 bullets at a fair price.

snuffy - I bought the press new from "Cheaper than Dirt" in the .223 configuration (dies included in the turret). Everything I've learned is as you say - the full length sizer die must kiss the shell plate. I believe that I have the rifle charging die set properly now and the single cases I run through no longer show that "crimp" effect when leaving the charging die; however, there is still no way that I can get a case that I have chamfered to stay on top of the mouth under the bullet seating die. The bullets just fall off. I am running one case at a time. By the way, unless you started reloading when you were 10 years old, you may be close to my age.

Comments about the number of powder grains - I got the 25 grains from Lee's .223 die instructions. I am definitely NOT trying for heavy loads and I will be shooting these rounds in a Bushmaster M4 AR.

jmorris - Your images really help a great deal. I've disassembled the die and the decapping pin looks like the one on the right in your photo. I can't explain why this "pistol" like pin would have been sent with the .223 full length sizer die. However, I am giving a hard look now at the RCBS 11101 Series Full Length Die Set to replace the Lee version.

I believe that I will back off to 24 grains of powder. I weigh each charge thrown by the Pro Auto-Disk with double disk set with my Redding scale.

Yes, I am taking it slow and careful. I have made mistakes but am learning from them and learning a great deal with reading and with all your great advice. I do have a single stage press and have used it for some operations to learn. I seem to have figured out my Lee Loadmaster by loading .45 ACP. Now I am just trying to learn the Lee Pro 1000. You are right it is a fun and great hobby. My first exposure to reloading was when 18 years old from a neighbor who owned a Harley business, raced them, and taught me how to shoot high power rifle matches with the M1 Garand. I've been away from shooting after I returned from my tour in Vietnam in '66-'67, but now I like to return to sport shooting at paper and hunting with my 30 '06.

My continued thanks for you help and kindness.
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Old July 28, 2011, 01:20 AM   #25
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Hey, I hate to chime in late, but flat based rifle bullets will rarely fit into resized rifle case and stay put while working the press. With mine I just guide the bullet into the seating die and let the seating punch straighten it up and seat it, slowly. Even boatails can have the same problem.

While pistol bullets have the case mouth belled and will hold the bullet, most rifle cartridges don’t. This may not be your problem, but it sounds like it.
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